54 replies to this topic

[kampfer91]

There is no future for the Krokodil variant since it is WG , so sad :(

[teamoldmill]

 Otto_matic_Reiffel, on Jun 20 2012 - 08:34, said:

Where is the rest of your team? If you are the only tank left against a bunch of enemies chances are you are dead anyway. If a single reasonably good tier 9 medium comes up against one of the slow tier 10 heavies, the heavy will lose most of the time.

Nobody has played it yet. While it won't be the OP super-monster everybody here seems to want it to be, I'm sure it will be at least OK.

Slight other note, the 'weaker' part of the front superstructure with 250mm armour is still sloped at 30 degrees. This means gold ammo at least for all current tier 10 heavy guns unless they get a really good angle on you from up a hill. Other option is they hit the mantlet which is just about a guaranteed bounce.


No there isn't ;)

+- 25% for penetration. Decent roll from almost a dozen guns will pen the superstructure.

Map design means you can easily and readily get into situations where a light or medium or even a heavy tank gets on you from 50 meters or less.

Sorry, the gun just is not going to make up for the anti-TD bias in general in this game. We need view range out to 700 meters, and firing ranges to 800 meters with increased accuracy and pen or we will never be as good as other vehicle classes.

[thejoker91]

 teamoldmill, on Jun 20 2012 - 12:12, said:

+- 25% for penetration. Decent roll from almost a dozen guns will pen the superstructure.

Map design means you can easily and readily get into situations where a light or medium or even a heavy tank gets on you from 50 meters or less.

Sorry, the gun just is not going to make up for the anti-TD bias in general in this game. We need view range out to 700 meters, and firing ranges to 800 meters with increased accuracy and pen or we will never be as good as other vehicle classes.

So what? a decent roll from the T110 gun will pen the IS-7 upper hull but you still wont see people shooting there from head on.

A decent roll is not something you can count on to get a pen. 250mm @30° is around 275mm effective after normalization, but most tanks are lower than the supertructure meaning they will be on most cases shooting up to it increasing the angle and perfect head on angles almost never happens, theres always a 1 or 2° inclination around there,

Anyways, I havent seen a lot of JTs penned in the superstructure and its ill adviced to shoot there in the first place.

[teamoldmill]

 thejoker91, on Jun 20 2012 - 15:59, said:

So what? a decent roll from the T110 gun will pen the IS-7 upper hull but you still wont see people shooting there from head on.

A decent roll is not something you can count on to get a pen. 250mm @30° is around 275mm effective after normalization, but most tanks are lower than the supertructure meaning they will be on most cases shooting up to it increasing the angle and perfect head on angles almost never happens, theres always a 1 or 2° inclination around there,

Anyways, I havent seen a lot of JTs penned in the superstructure and its ill adviced to shoot there in the first place.

Play one more. JT needs more than a good roll to pen a hull down heavy (non-German that is). Even if you can find a hull down spot where arty won't 1 shot you, you are at a disadvantage.

Bottom line, fanboys defend the JT and TDs in general, but almost no real good player has TDs as there best vehicles. It is quite the opposite. Good players who play all vehicle classes generally have TDs as their worst performing vehicles. Start checking people's stats out. TDs flat out are worse to begin with. Saying the JT is equal to the 704 or T30 is like running the Special Olympics -- even if you win, you are still retarded.

[Otto_matic_Reiffel]

teamoldmill - why do you seem to hate TDs so very, very much yet keep posting the same stuff in the TD forum? I haven't had any issues with tanks bouncing the superstructure of a hull down JT, including the BL-10. Heavy tanks are just as vulnerable to arty in their hull down spots. TDs are more vulnerable to advanced tactics than anything else, but you rarely see that in pubs.

For pub games, top-tier TD win rates are slightly ahead of those for heavy tanks. If TDs are as bad as you say, how do you explain that? Souce: http://forum.worldof...ver-statistics/

[thejoker91]

 teamoldmill, on Jun 20 2012 - 17:56, said:

Play one more. JT needs more than a good roll to pen a hull down heavy (non-German that is). Even if you can find a hull down spot where arty won't 1 shot you, you are at a disadvantage.

Bottom line, fanboys defend the JT and TDs in general, but almost no real good player has TDs as there best vehicles. It is quite the opposite. Good players who play all vehicle classes generally have TDs as their worst performing vehicles. Start checking people's stats out. TDs flat out are worse to begin with. Saying the JT is equal to the 704 or T30 is like running the Special Olympics -- even if you win, you are still retarded.

Most good players dont play TDs because TDs have no place in clan wars. At least I know thats the case among the people I know and myself.

Since the income of free goldz depend on how many CW worthy tanks the clan has, grinding non-CW tanks is pointless to a lot of people.


This will change of course with the incoming tier 10 TDs, so we need to wait and see.



Also, what does JT needing more than a good roll to pen a hull down heavy has anything to do with it?

[teamoldmill]

 thejoker91, on Jun 21 2012 - 04:07, said:

Most good players dont play TDs because TDs have no place in clan wars. At least I know thats the case among the people I know and myself.

Since the income of free goldz depend on how many CW worthy tanks the clan has, grinding non-CW tanks is pointless to a lot of people.


This will change of course with the incoming tier 10 TDs, so we need to wait and see.



Also, what does JT needing more than a good roll to pen a hull down heavy has anything to do with it?

Somebody was spitting the stupid line about hull down and you are Captain Awesome Sauce or some silliness.

My points stand. The really good players, look em up. They do much, much, much better in mediums and heavies and lights than they do with TDs. I have only dabbled in heavies and mediums by comparison but I still do better. I am just above average. The really good players understand TDs have nowhere near the guns they need to be competitive. They only get decent win rates because the other poor dumb bastard on the other team is playing one too.

E-100 should be 1000 damage, 4.5 rof to be worthy of a T10 spot. Instead it will be what, 2.25 or something stupid? DPM won't even be any better than current heavies.

Edited by teamoldmill, Jun 21 2012 - 13:46.

[Will_of_Iron]

I don't quite get where you get "TDs aren't good enough" out of this OP, but I still think the T95 and T30's guns are really powerful, same with the 704's. The only TDs that need a good amount of buffing are German ones, however all of them could do with a pen and accuracy buff. Germans are known for having built the most accurate weapons I believe. If they had a TD like the Jagdpanther at tier 10 (more armor obviously) with a gun comperable to the T95's, the Germans would have a very solid TD. All of theirs are shaped awfully, have large glasics plates, and numerous other issues.

[teamoldmill]

 Will_of_Iron, on Jun 21 2012 - 13:35, said:

I don't quite get where you get "TDs aren't good enough" out of this OP, but I still think the T95 and T30's guns are really powerful, same with the 704's. The only TDs that need a good amount of buffing are German ones, however all of them could do with a pen and accuracy buff. Germans are known for having built the most accurate weapons I believe. If they had a TD like the Jagdpanther at tier 10 (more armor obviously) with a gun comperable to the T95's, the Germans would have a very solid TD. All of theirs are shaped awfully, have large glasics plates, and numerous other issues.

DPM alone is not higher with the T95 and 704 than heavies. TDs average experience is vastly lower than heavies and mediums. They are gimmick vehicles. Gun creep is making TDs just irrelevant. Why bring a TD when a heavy has more hps, better armor, more mobility, higher DPM in many cases? A little alpha?

Edited by teamoldmill, Jun 21 2012 - 13:59.

[MerryPrankster]

 teamoldmill, on Jun 20 2012 - 17:56, said:

Play one more. JT needs more than a good roll to pen a hull down heavy (non-German that is). Even if you can find a hull down spot where arty won't 1 shot you, you are at a disadvantage.

Bottom line, fanboys defend the JT and TDs in general, but almost no real good player has TDs as there best vehicles. It is quite the opposite. Good players who play all vehicle classes generally have TDs as their worst performing vehicles. Start checking people's stats out. TDs flat out are worse to begin with. Saying the JT is equal to the 704 or T30 is like running the Special Olympics -- even if you win, you are still retarded.

While I dont care for stats (see my sig) my stats in the Ferdi are somewhat impressive,and my personal best vehicle in game (close 2nd is IS4..hmm excuse me IS8) and according to the nvx mod, I am a 'real good player' ..what ever that means.

[thejoker91]

 teamoldmill, on Jun 21 2012 - 13:23, said:

Somebody was spitting the stupid line about hull down and you are Captain Awesome Sauce or some silliness.

My points stand. The really good players, look em up. They do much, much, much better in mediums and heavies and lights than they do with TDs. I have only dabbled in heavies and mediums by comparison but I still do better. I am just above average. The really good players understand TDs have nowhere near the guns they need to be competitive. They only get decent win rates because the other poor dumb bastard on the other team is playing one too.

E-100 should be 1000 damage, 4.5 rof to be worthy of a T10 spot. Instead it will be what, 2.25 or something stupid? DPM won't even be any better than current heavies.

4.5 RoF? are you insane? a 1.000 dmg gun that fires every 13 seconds? 3 will most likely be its RoF (wich is already higher than the DPM of every single tank in the game), but I wouldnt be surprised if it gets 2.75

[Xlucine]

 teamoldmill, on Jun 21 2012 - 13:47, said:

DPM alone is not higher with the T95 and 704 than heavies. TDs average experience is vastly lower than heavies and mediums. They are gimmick vehicles. Gun creep is making TDs just irrelevant. Why bring a TD when a heavy has more hps, better armor, more mobility, higher DPM in many cases? A little alpha?

Better armour? 250mm@30 of the J-100 is better than the 240mm@30 of the E-100 turret, and the upper and lower glacis will be identical. And while heavies are more mobile and have more HP, TD's have way more DPM:

• AMX 50 foch: 2856 av
  
• ob'yect 704: 2625 av
  
• Jtigger: 3091 av
  
• T30: 2476 av w/120mm
  
• T95 : 2760 w/120mm

Average for T9 TD's: 2762

• AMX50 120: 684 av (although offset by the burst fire somewhat)
  
• ST-1: 1808 av
  
• IS-8: 2077 av
  
• E-75: 1877 av
  
• 4502p ausfb: 1877 av
  
• M103: 2144 av

Average for T9 heavies, excluding AMX50 120: 1957

So what exactly are those "many cases" where TD's have less DPM than heavies? Or do you not know what you're talking about?

 thejoker91, on Jun 21 2012 - 21:39, said:

4.5 RoF? are you insane? a 1.000 dmg gun that fires every 13 seconds? 3 will most likely be its RoF (wich is already higher than the DPM of every single tank in the game), but I wouldnt be surprised if it gets 2.75

IMO a bit over 3 RPM would be ideal; more DPM than JT to go with the higher tier but not too silly.

Edited by Xlucine, Jun 21 2012 - 23:36.

[thejoker91]

 Xlucine, on Jun 21 2012 - 23:35, said:

Better armour? 250mm@30 of the J-100 is better than the 240mm@30 of the E-100, and the upper and lower glacis will be identical. And while heavies are more mobile and have more HP, TD's have way more DPM:

• AMX 50 foch: 2856 av
  
• ob'yect 704: 2625 av
  
• Jtigger: 3091 av
  
• T30: 2476 av w/120mm
  
• T95 : 2760 w/120mm

Average for T9 TD's: 2762

• AMX50 120: 684 av (although offset by the burst fire somewhat)
  
• ST-1: 1808 av
  
• IS-8: 2077 av
  
• E-75: 1877 av
  
• 4502p ausfb: 1877 av
  
• M103: 2144 av

Average for T9 heavies, excluding AMX50 120: 1957

So what exactly are those "many cases" where TD's have less DPM than heavies? Or do you not know what you're talking about?


IMO a bit over 3 RPM would be ideal; more DPM than JT to go with the higher tier but not too silly.

I think 3 RPM would be fine. Considering the gun will have almost double the alpha of JT and will be the hardest hitting direct fire gun in the entire game, high DPM shouldnt be an attribute.

[RagingHate]

 THEKINGOFHATEHD, on Jun 12 2012 - 03:51, said:

Im kinda dissappointed that Germany will only get one tier 10 TD while U.S.A. gets two Tier 10s and yet both have 2 TD lines. But 17cm gun is still epic. :P

What game are you playing? Germany only has 1 TD line.

[Xlucine]

 RagingHate, on Jul 06 2012 - 09:31, said:

What game are you playing? Germany only has 1 TD line.

A second line was always planned, but the TX for it hadn't been announced then. And it will have another line eventually:

[teamoldmill]

 Xlucine, on Jun 21 2012 - 23:35, said:

Better armour? 250mm@30 of the J-100 is better than the 240mm@30 of the E-100 turret, and the upper and lower glacis will be identical. And while heavies are more mobile and have more HP, TD's have way more DPM:

• AMX 50 foch: 2856 av
  
• ob'yect 704: 2625 av
  
• Jtigger: 3091 av
  
• T30: 2476 av w/120mm
  
• T95 : 2760 w/120mm

Average for T9 TD's: 2762

• AMX50 120: 684 av (although offset by the burst fire somewhat)
  
• ST-1: 1808 av
  
• IS-8: 2077 av
  
• E-75: 1877 av
  
• 4502p ausfb: 1877 av
  
• M103: 2144 av

Average for T9 heavies, excluding AMX50 120: 1957

So what exactly are those "many cases" where TD's have less DPM than heavies? Or do you not know what you're talking about?


IMO a bit over 3 RPM would be ideal; more DPM than JT to go with the higher tier but not too silly.

Try again, Young One. Try that with the guns they actually use, the top guns. Try it with the T10 heavies which the T9 TDs were designed from the beginning to fight against. Try it against the Patton too.

I like how you put the 120 mm on the T30 and T95.

[Kian_S]

my pridiction, it's beast for the first day then they nerf it into a pile of glass with a bigass gun. WG works that way, GOOD NIGHT!

[teamoldmill]

Notice the problem with the two German TD lines?

Both T10s are extremely slow, gigantic with no camo. One has no armor. Speed and camo are vital now with all the crazy speed we have in the game and the incredibly hitting power of heavies, not to mention arty. Germany is a dead end line. Go French, go Russian, go American, will have much better T10 TDs in the end.

[Xlucine]

 teamoldmill, on Jul 06 2012 - 11:45, said:

Try again, Young One. Try that with the guns they actually use, the top guns. Try it with the T10 heavies which the T9 TDs were designed from the beginning to fight against. Try it against the Patton too.

I like how you put the 120 mm on the T30 and T95.

Cute. I used top guns for all but the US ones, as 120mm is a valid choice - it has enough pen, and the quick reload can surprise players used to the glacial T7. Even if I re-do the calculations for the T7 they still come out on top - 2460 and 2220 dpm for T95 and T30 respectively. Average for T9 TD's becomes 2650, 35% higher than equal tier heavies. We are discussing T10 TD's, so comparing T9 TD's to T10 heavies is pointless. And the patton is not a heavy. It's almost as if you completely forgot the post I was replying to - anyway, care to name any TD that gets lower DPM than an equal tier heavy? It shouldn't be hard to find a couple if there really are "many cases" as you say here:

 teamoldmill, on Jun 21 2012 - 13:47, said:

DPM alone is not higher with the T95 and 704 than heavies. TDs average experience is vastly lower than heavies and mediums. They are gimmick vehicles. Gun creep is making TDs just irrelevant. Why bring a TD when a heavy has more hps, better armor, more mobility, higher DPM in many cases? A little alpha?

[teamoldmill]

 Xlucine, on Jul 06 2012 - 13:47, said:

Cute. I used top guns for all but the US ones, as 120mm is a valid choice - it has enough pen, and the quick reload can surprise players used to the glacial T7. Even if I re-do the calculations for the T7 they still come out on top - 2460 and 2220 dpm for T95 and T30 respectively. Average for T9 TD's becomes 2650, 35% higher than equal tier heavies. We are discussing T10 TD's, so comparing T9 TD's to T10 heavies is pointless. And the patton is not a heavy. It's almost as if you completely forgot the post I was replying to - anyway, care to name any TD that gets lower DPM than an equal tier heavy? It shouldn't be hard to find a couple if there really are "many cases" as you say here:

Do the math again, against the T10 heavies, like I said. I am sorry you are incapable of logic or intelligence. If comparing vehicles that fight each other head to head is pointless, well, perhaps you would like to play in Romper Room? Do you believe tank destroyers should sacrifice everything for equal or barely better than firepower? How stupid is that?

Edited by teamoldmill, Jul 06 2012 - 15:16.