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European tanks discussion italian new tech tree tank tree Czech upcomming poland

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sp15 #1241 Posted Jul 06 2015 - 19:17

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We also got some rather interesting information from the same person who gave Ren the T80 and T72 test videos.

 

Udes 15/16 drawing from 1974

Turret armor, actually quite decent when you take sloping into account

there was also a datasheet:

 

Crew: 3
Combat weight: 26 ton
Lenght with gun and rear stowage boxes: 8m
Width: 3,3m
Height: 1,9m
Ground clerance: 0,4m
Gun calibre: 10,5cm
Rate of fire: 12-25 rpm
Turret traverse: 360dg
Turret traverse speed: 45dg/sec
Depression/Elevation: -10/+20

 

 

UDES 15/16 turret test rig on Ikv 91 chassis



sp15 #1242 Posted Jul 07 2015 - 18:15

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So we got some really nice stuff today, two Krv drawings

Electrical drawing

Terro engine & transmission compartment drawing

L-120 turret

Lago turret drawing



A_Moff_In_Mordor #1243 Posted Jul 15 2015 - 14:04

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A bit late to this discussion sorry, but what nations are they going to be able to add? Early tier Czech tanks are already used in the German tech tree. France has it's own tech tree. It sounds as if it's going to end up either being predominantly Polish, Swedish,  and Italian (which I have no problem with, except the fact that they should have their own tech trees), or being another "modify a bunch of Russian vehicles" type thing with the smaller WarPac countries and maybe the Netherlands and Switzerland mixed in (which I don't have a problem with either, I just want to see seperate Polish, Swedish, and Italian tank trees though).

Life_In_Black #1244 Posted Jul 15 2015 - 14:10

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View PostA_Moff_In_Mordor, on Jul 15 2015 - 09:04, said:

A bit late to this discussion sorry, but what nations are they going to be able to add? Early tier Czech tanks are already used in the German tech tree. France has it's own tech tree. It sounds as if it's going to end up either being predominantly Polish, Swedish,  and Italian (which I have no problem with, except the fact that they should have their own tech trees), or being another "modify a bunch of Russian vehicles" type thing with the smaller WarPac countries and maybe the Netherlands and Switzerland mixed in (which I don't have a problem with either, I just want to see seperate Polish, Swedish, and Italian tank trees though).

 

Sweden, Czechoslovakia, and possibly Italy are already getting their own tech trees. Everyone else at this point, (Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Switzerland, Romania, Spain, Belgium, etc,) are currently in limbo.

sp15 #1245 Posted Aug 03 2015 - 19:12

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Ren has been on vacation and ive been watching SGDQ during all my free time last week so we have not gotten a lot done im afraid, i did however sit down and work out a armour scheme for the Strv 103 today that should explain just how complicated the armor really is.

 

Basic armor:


Spaced armor (including armour thicknesses):



With dozer blade and the "fence" (both of those should be 30mm thick), also included the ribbed armor as the added red parts on the upper glacis

 

And i also did a bit of research in tank inspector to see just how effective the armor would be in Wot with current mechanics. I used amx m4 since its side armor is very close to the frontal armor of the strv 103 when properly angled, and it has spaced armor. the upper part of the picture is for the upper front without and with spaced armor and the lower front on the bottom.

So in short the armor should be good against HEAT and 105mm guns from the front but not much else... we will see how this will work in the game or if the game is going to do something to make the frontal armor reliable...



Life_In_Black #1246 Posted Aug 03 2015 - 19:31

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I know you've mentioned it before about the strips of armor added to the Strv 103 to improve its effectiveness. Did Sweden do any tests on additional armor strips like that being added to a vertical piece of armor?

sp15 #1247 Posted Aug 03 2015 - 20:35

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 03 2015 - 18:31, said:

I know you've mentioned it before about the strips of armor added to the Strv 103 to improve its effectiveness. Did Sweden do any tests on additional armor strips like that being added to a vertical piece of armor?

 

There wasnt much experimentation in terms of improving the armor for the Strv 103, they tested a few different types of engine hatches that was up to 50mm thick (although they setteled to the 40mm one with the 30mm armor ribbs) and later they tested ceramic armor for the Strv 103D model in the 90s. There was also plans for cage armor for the sides early on

I should say that In the armour scheme pictures above I have represented the ribbed armor as track links on HD tank models (aka as circa 15mm extra armor).



Life_In_Black #1248 Posted Aug 03 2015 - 21:22

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View Postsp15, on Aug 03 2015 - 15:35, said:

 

There wasnt much experimentation in terms of improving the armor for the Strv 103, they tested a few different types of engine hatches that was up to 50mm thick (although they setteled to the 40mm one with the 30mm armor ribbs) and later they tested ceramic armor for the Strv 103D model in the 90s. There was also plans for cage armor for the sides early on

I should say that In the armour scheme pictures above I have represented the ribbed armor as track links on HD tank models (aka as circa 15mm extra armor).

 

Interesting, thank you. The reason I ask is I've noticed production versions of the early Merkavas have additional strips of armor welded onto the flat part of the lower glascis in front, and I can't find any reason or benefit to doing so. Obviously it wasn't done just to be aesthetically pleasing, but the reason eludes me. You would think that if the reason was to improve the armor of the lower glascis they would just add a full armored plate to it.

sp15 #1249 Posted Aug 04 2015 - 11:57

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 03 2015 - 20:22, said:

 

Interesting, thank you. The reason I ask is I've noticed production versions of the early Merkavas have additional strips of armor welded onto the flat part of the lower glascis in front, and I can't find any reason or benefit to doing so. Obviously it wasn't done just to be aesthetically pleasing, but the reason eludes me. You would think that if the reason was to improve the armor of the lower glascis they would just add a full armored plate to it.

 

Are you reffering to the ribbed armor? It increases the effectiveness of the armor more than 10mm according to tests (at the very least it wont deform as much) and i t saves weight.

Anyhow here is a sheme over the "ribbed" armour on the S-tank upper glacis

And here it is before and after having been shot with a L7 gun


Tests were also made with 50mm armour without the "ribbing"




Life_In_Black #1250 Posted Aug 04 2015 - 15:17

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Yeah, I'm referring to the ribbed armor. I understand that on a heavily sloped surface like that, it increases the armor protection. What I don't understand is if these same ribs of additional armor would help increase armor protection on a near vertical surface. You can see what I'm talking about here on the front of this Merkava 1.Like I said, I haven't found any rhyme or reason as to why this was done as it's not on the prototypes or pre-series vehicles. Thus why I asked you if Sweden had run any tests on a similar arrangement.

renhanxue #1251 Posted Aug 07 2015 - 16:49

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As far as I know, no. If I find something I'll let you know, though.

Life_In_Black #1252 Posted Aug 07 2015 - 18:07

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View Postrenhanxue, on Aug 07 2015 - 11:49, said:

As far as I know, no. If I find something I'll let you know, though.

 

Thank you. I'd ask someone I know who was in the IDF, but the Merkava is a bit of a touchy subject with Israel.

sp15 #1253 Posted Aug 16 2015 - 09:09

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God F'"#¤/ damn it WHY just WHY scrap an intire tree with possible tier 10's for TD's, SPG's and MT's (and tier 8 LT) in favour of a single premium """"""""""""german"""""""""""" medium for F#%!=*s sake
I swear to god if the S-tank ends up as a TD too im out, no really ill abandon this game and just do something else, maybe write a book or something because WG is just going completely insane at this point.

 

http://ritastatusrep...-tier-8-mt.html



Life_In_Black #1254 Posted Aug 16 2015 - 21:21

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View Postsp15, on Aug 16 2015 - 04:09, said:

God F'"#¤/ damn it WHY just WHY scrap an intire tree with possible tier 10's for TD's, SPG's and MT's (and tier 8 LT) in favour of a single premium """"""""""""german"""""""""""" medium for F#%!=*s sake
I swear to god if the S-tank ends up as a TD too im out, no really ill abandon this game and just do something else, maybe write a book or something because WG is just going completely insane at this point.

 

http://ritastatusrep...-tier-8-mt.html

 

While I don't agree with the decision as I think a tech tree for Switzerland could have been made, a Swiss tech tree has plenty of its own issues. The Taifun for instance is a tier 9 TD at best, given its best armament is the 105mm L7, which is currently on a tier 8 turreted TD in-game already. There's no medium line to speak of before tier 8, the light line has gaps at tiers 4 through 6 which can only be filled using the Pirat and Skorpion TD projects, which guts the TD line completely, and there are only three artillery candidates to speak of, namely the G-13 105mm, the AMX-13 with the 15cm, and the Panzerkanone 68, so there's no real artillery line either. Plus, the Panzer 58 was entirely redundant anyway, as the KW30 is a perfect tier 8 medium candidate, while the Panzer 61 is nothing more than a Panzer 58 with a 105mm L7 anyway. That and the Panzer 68 is well within the timeframe and technology of the game, so a medium "line" can be created from tiers 8 through 10 without the Panzer 58. Literally, this is the best I can come up with:

 

As I said, the Pirat could be the tier 7 light tank and the Skorpion could be separated into the 57mm and 90mm versions to work at tiers 5 and 6, but that leaves a gap in the TD line that can't be filled at all with Swiss vehicles. About the biggest benefit I could see to including Switzerland in the German tech tree, is it provides high tier mediums and TDs for the Hungarian tanks to lead to, which while there's no technological link between them, it's better than nothing. Plus the Panzerkanone 68 can top off the German arty line, replacing the fictional G.W. E 100. The HS30 mit 90mm Bord K could be a premium tier 8 light tank as it was designed with Germany in mind anyway. And if the Pirat and Skorpion are used for the light line here, the Panzer 39 could be used to make the current Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) much more historical, the Swiss light line could start after the Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) n.A., finally giving that thign its own respective light tank branch, and the German Kanonenjagdpanzers can be used to flesh out a postwar casemated TD line of sorts. And the unmodified FT-17 and Leichter Panzer 35 wouldn't be necessary at all. The G-13 with the diesel engine could be a premium, the other artillery could be premiums too, or something. Really, this isn't the end of the world here, even if it's not the best solution for Switzerland itself.



sp15 #1255 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 07:58

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What really makes me mad about the scrapping of the Swiss tree is that there was potential there, it reminds me of how the swedish tree looked when i started researching it, and it improved tremendusly with the help of Ren and we know that there are plenty of Swiss paper projects. I just think it was way to early to do something like this, to waste such potential on one or two premium tanks. It makes me sick.

Life_In_Black #1256 Posted Aug 19 2015 - 08:38

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View Postsp15, on Aug 19 2015 - 02:58, said:

What really makes me mad about the scrapping of the Swiss tree is that there was potential there, it reminds me of how the swedish tree looked when i started researching it, and it improved tremendusly with the help of Ren and we know that there are plenty of Swiss paper projects. I just think it was way to early to do something like this, to waste such potential on one or two premium tanks. It makes me sick.

 

While I don't disagree that there is some potential there, the sheer number of paper projects needed to make a Swiss tech tree viable makes an Italian tech tree look easy to put together. From what I've gathered, the Swiss don't talk about their military projects either, so there's no guarantee anybody would be able to get access to MOWAG's archives, Saurer is owned by a conglomerate at this point, so there's no guarantee any of those records exist anymore, and who knows if Hispano-Suiza still has archives or would be willing to share them. As it stands, using the German tech tree to have Switzerland top off the Hungarian branches isn't a bad idea at all, nor is using the Panzer 58 in and of itself, given the only difference between it and the Panzer 61 is the Panzer 61 had the 105mm L7, and a tier 9 Panzer 61 needs stock modules anyway.

 

I decided to map out what a potential German/Hungarian/Swiss tech tree might look like and the result isn't half-bad, even if the Gepard and Taifun really don't belong that high. One potential solution would be to split the Taifun into two vehicles, since the Taifun was actually the Taifun II, IIRC. This way the Taifun II at tier 10 could get a little creative license, like a 120mm rifled cannon or a longer 105mm L7 variant. But in any case, here's what it looks like:

 

The Austrian SK-105 could be used as TDs to top off the Swiss light line, with say a prototype at tier 9 and a production version at tier 10, which would fit given both the company of Saurer originally being Swiss, as well as the fact the Austrians considered them TDs while everyone else considered them light tanks, so it would be a fitting way to introduce the SK-105 Kürassier to the game. Plus, IIRC, there was a project discovered in the Swedish archives involving the Leichter Panzer 51 that could work as a tier 8 TD, so if necessary, the casemated line could be scrapped, the German Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 can still be made a premium (something I've been objecting to), and that Leichter Panzer 51 project slotted in as a tier 8 TD so that the TD line remains consistent. For that matter, the Leichter Panzer 51 itself could be slotted in at tier 7 and lead to that project too, so you could transition back to the TD line from the light line if you wanted.

 

Going even further, I decided to see what a combined Italian and Spanish tech tree looked like, and the end result was also pretty decent:

 

Leaving aside the M47 variant at tier 8 (which is only a no-go with Wargaming since they way overbuffed the M26 and M46 and don't want to fix their mistakes. Yet they see no problem with the M48 being a tier 10 medium and yet also having two premium tier 8 medium tanks with the same M48 turret as on the tier 10), this gives the tree a full light line as well as a second medium tier 9 and 10, of which there are numerous AMX 30 variants that could be chosen from to top off the light line. Plus, the 60mm gun on the M41/60 is the Italian one, so there is more than one connection between the two nations as well. All in all, it's a pretty decent way to get Italy in the game historically without using fictional, and semi-fictional vehicles outside of the damn tier 8 Italian medium.

 

While we're on the subject though, the only two nations I can't figure out what to do with are Romania and Bulgaria. Romania could potentially be put in the Czech tech tree, which wouldn't be a bad idea all things considered, with the autoloaded version of the Czech T-34/100 being a tier 8 medium branching off the tier 7 version in the first line, the T-54/55 being a tier 9 medium, and then the TR-580 being a tier 10 medium. Plus the Romanian TD line up to tier 4 or 5. Bulgaria is a little trickier, but only has the Pz.Kpfw. IV with the SU-76's gun grafted onto the turret, so it's not a big deal, Norway's NM-116 can be added as a premium to Sweden, as can the Finnish BT-42, the Comet with the 20-pdr, and the T-34/85 with the 7.5cm StuK 40 L/48 (tank number Ps. 245-4). Belgium can have it's two or three designs added to the French or British tech tree as premiums, and Poland can get a mini branch in the Soviet tech tree, which while insensitive politically, has already been done with the Rudy, so there is precedent.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that combining nations into other tech trees isn't the end of the world provided it's done right. So we'll have to see if Wargaming actually bothers to put the effort into it that such combinations requires, rather than just picking and choosing premiums.



sp15 #1257 Posted Aug 24 2015 - 12:08

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I forgot to post this when we got it in last week, not really tanks but its rather interesting nontheless.

Its another aircraft carrier, apparently drawn up to understand how such a ship could work... although it has a few odd ideas like the main guns being mounted in turrets under the flight deck



Life_In_Black #1258 Posted Aug 26 2015 - 12:54

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Saw this over on The Armored Patrol today:



sp15 #1259 Posted Aug 26 2015 - 21:00

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 26 2015 - 11:54, said:

Saw this over on The Armored Patrol today:

 

Yeah its an old video that pasholock linked on his blog today, they probably got it from there.

SebastianulNA #1260 Posted Aug 29 2015 - 21:50

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View Postsp15, on Aug 26 2015 - 21:00, said:

 

Yeah its an old video that pasholock linked on his blog today, they probably got it from there.

 

 

Maybe, or maybe not. Not your problem as far as I am concerned :)







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