14 replies to this topic

[johndart49]

It seems like every time i play Himmelsdorf and a crowd of mixed tanks trys to take the hill the battle is over before it even starts. I was just in a match where ppl were saying take the hill before the battle started. i was the only voice of opposition and the lone force at tank alley in my t32. i took out 1 tank then got rolled over by an IS3, ferdi, and an e75. the enemy was capping around the time our other heavies made it to the downside of the hill. What are your opinions on the importance of the hill?

[Tichinde]

I would say that you have to send some up the hill, as the opposition almost certainly will. I don;t know if there is a "magic number" as it really depends on how the team is made up.

[johndart49]

here is the strategy we use when running TCs/training. it works 90% of the time when everyone knows their role. figured id share it.

granted we have that many lights.

[Spanktankk]

Revise poll to " How many games out of ten are LOST when even one of the top five tanks on your team (usually heavies) crawl their fat asses up the hill at 2kph and sit up there and snipe instead of going Lane"  

[Skpstr]

It really depends on what goes up the hill, what the enemy sends up the hill, what you have left to stop the enemy push, and what they are pudhing with.

Like any strategy on any map, it always can work.

[Blackhorse_Nine]

Quote

It really depends on what goes up the hill, what the enemy sends up the hill, what you have left to stop the enemy push, and what they are pushing with. Like any strategy on any map, it always can work.

Agreed. We believe that while it is not necessary to take & hold The Hill, it remains an enemy Avenue of Approach, and so should be Blocked or Delayed at the very least. Never ignore it, and never camp on it - the view is nice, but if there's no threat up there, you're wasting a Team Asset by staying up there. Excellent assessment, johndart49; (+1) to you on the Re-Load.

[Mohoao]

I like the way johndart49 laid out the map, it makes excellent sense.  But how would you deploy TD's in this scenario.

[Superaman]

Usually I find that the hill is good for lights and fast meds because if they are any good, they can defeat or weave around the opposing sides force and flank/support the 7 line.  My general rule of any map is that if there is a steep hill such as here or in Fjords for the east base, no heavy should go up there unless there is a lack of lights and meds.  Personally though, 5 is the max i'd ever send up a hill, diverting that much of a force up a terrain which will usually take at least 1 minute to traverse really hurts the rest of the team if they are not swift and efficient.

[tanky_the_tank]

Main strength of hill is that it breaks the east road bottleneck by hitting from behind. And as much as I hate sniping, it can give excellent shots on the main east west roads as well as base circle. But it's a place for fast tanks. Slow tanks are wasted there unless they are rear guard. Hill rush only works so often in pub match because street tanks so often fail to advance with clear advantage. Sit long enough and even a T95 will make it to the other side of hill.

Sending tanks up hill is better than having 5 tanks crammed into an intersection meant for 2. True for most maps with overloaded chokepoint and other roads available.

[knaT_sdrawkcaB]

This map is generally won or lost based on the skill and tier of your team's heavy tanks.  There is no cover for scouts, and not enough space to manuever for medium tanks.  TDs can't hide and have to spend 10 seconds exposed while peeking around corners.  Arty can barely contribute with all the buildings.

A slow heavy heading up the hill is basically useless for the entire match.  They are much more useful on the 3 or 7 column.  If the top heavy tank on your team heads up the hill, you lost.  Even if they make it up there, they sit and play peek-a-boo with the other team's mediums for 5 minutes before they can head down the opposite ramp.  By then, the match is over.

I think the battle in the 7 column is much more important than the battle for the hill, though I agree with Blackhorse, it cannot be left undefended... by mediums & lights hopefully.

knaT

[alexsyl007]

I've seen KV's, KV-5's, even E100's try and go hill......the whole team was dead by the time they reached even half-way. Fast heavies like the T32 or the VK-A or maybe a few of the French may be excused for their hill rush but for other heavies, the choice just seems illogical. They're too slow to climb the hill, almost certain to die fast if meds start circling them, and by the time they reach the enemy base, the enemy would be in our base......makes sense to anyone?
The Basic problem is that in pubs, no one cares to what you try and teach them.....you could just might as well spoken to a wall....everyone in pubs have this pre-conceived idea of what to do on a map and they are just going to stick to their style no matter what.........Unfortunately, when I'm in a light or med, there is not much I can do to protect base when 7 of our heavies have gone hill and 7 of the enemy heavies roll down the victory lane.........

[tanky_the_tank]

Time to reach enemy base is an important number on a lot of maps. Tie up a chunk of your team too far out of the way and you're asking a smart team to rush the quick routes. But in pub match, you'll just as often see team ignore the window of opportunity in order to face superior front armor and die.

I had a Himmelsdorf match yesterday where I was M4E8 and the 3 top enemies were Type 59. We expected them to cross hill, and they did. We left hill alone. Then all our T7 and T8 heavies held position and fired at enemy T6 heavies from our side of the map, instead of crushing them fast. I ended up in middle fighting an AMX that rushed over early. Then 59's arrived from hill and we lost badly. When I pointed out we had camped, one of our heavies said look at the med who thought he was a heavy. Meaning I should have taken E8 alone up the hill to somehow stop 3 Type 59's or slow them any length of time. It was that kind of team.

[Arcticflame]

That hill is annoying. If you dont send anyone up there, the base will be exposed, or meds and heavies will be sniping from above. If you send too many, you have no main force and your most likely to lose fast. If you send the fast, speedy tanks, you never know if a heavy is trying to go up there and wipes them out really fast. What you should do for that hill is, keep 1-2 heavies at the bottom of the hill, just incase a light or somethin gets by, while also sending a few lights and a med up there. NEVER send a heavy up there. by the time it's up there, the battle will be half over. Best to play defensive on the hill, so if base is under attack, your able to quickly report back and stop the assault.
But, that's kinda hard with the terrible cooperation in random battles. So, if you see your whole team going hill, you might as well go too, just to save your repair cost.  

[Dago_n_TX]

As its been said I think any well thought out strategy can work if it all goes right. Saying that generally when I see heavies rolling up that hill I groan cause it tends to be a bad sign.

I think personally you see tanks go up there because they are intimidated by the tanks on the other tier and feel like the MM has them over matched so they will avoid them and go the one way they would never go. What they do is take a huge number of hit points and dps OUT of the game for their team.  They aren't there to help their team out and take the occasional round and they aren't there to add the dmg of their rounds to the enemy. I know to many that seems simple but time and time again it happens. You/we all count on the people on our team to fill their individual roles. We expect our top tier heavies to act like them within the limits of the track they are driving. (don't expect for the guy driving the T30 to lead the charge, just be thankful he's there adding his DPS to yours )

I think taking the hill like the hill on several maps doesn't necessarily equate to victory, but contesting it does. Anytime there is an ave. left undefended or open that's usually where the other team will go. Murphy's law at work. I think you expect quicker tanks that cant exchange tit for tat with the enemies heavies to at the very least contest the area on this map. On the same token you expect your teams heavies to contest other area's. I like to think as players gain confidence in the tanks they are in they start to fill those rolls. It's not always proven but nothing wrong with giving folks the benefit of the doubt.

[tanky_the_tank]

 Arcticflame, on Mar 23 2012 - 19:27, said:

That hill is annoying. If you dont send anyone up there, the base will be exposed, or meds and heavies will be sniping from above. If you send too many, you have no main force and your most likely to lose fast. If you send the fast, speedy tanks, you never know if a heavy is trying to go up there and wipes them out really fast. What you should do for that hill is, keep 1-2 heavies at the bottom of the hill, just incase a light or somethin gets by, while also sending a few lights and a med up there. NEVER send a heavy up there. by the time it's up there, the battle will be half over. Best to play defensive on the hill, so if base is under attack, your able to quickly report back and stop the assault.
But, that's kinda hard with the terrible cooperation in random battles. So, if you see your whole team going hill, you might as well go too, just to save your repair cost.  

The heavies at base of hill are already there, fighting for east street. They'll have enough time to respond to a hill threat if it's spotted early. Keeping them out of action just in case isn't going to help majority of the time.

The idea of only fast tanks on hill is they can tie up enemy fast tanks or spot then retreat from slower heavies, so that rest of team can push extra hard knowing the slow tanks are stranded up there. Problem is half the time pub team doesn't take advantage of that.