84 replies to this topic

[Sgt_Kachalin]

GENPATT0N, on Mar 24 2012 - 03:09, said:

(the germans)(first half of war) had the best armor and gun until...

Nope.

Just one example, the French Char B1-bis was as well or better armed and armoured as the German tanks in 1940. Other nation's tanks, when compared like to like, were often equivalent. Hell, when Germany invaded the USSR over 20% of the armor they used wasn't even German (Czech tanks made up the bulk of a number of panzer divisions). There was no 'super weapon' breakthrough in armor, either before or during WWII. The technology that designed and built tanks was well known across the industrialized world. What differed was doctrine, and from that design.

It wasn't German hardware that won them their victories, it was their command and control, the quality of training, experience of the units, and most importantly but most often overlooked an incredibly effective logistics system. In short, getting the right assets to the right places, and having people very good at using them.

[GENPATT0N]

interesting thank you for your contribution

[GENPATT0N]

Sgt_Kachalin, on Mar 24 2012 - 10:45, said:

Nope.

Just one example, the French Char B1-bis was as well or better armed and armoured as the German tanks in 1940. Other nation's tanks, when compared like to like, were often equivalent. Hell, when Germany invaded the USSR over 20% of the armor they used wasn't even German (Czech tanks made up the bulk of a number of panzer divisions). There was no 'super weapon' breakthrough in armor, either before or during WWII. The technology that designed and built tanks was well known across the industrialized world. What differed was doctrine, and from that design.

It wasn't German hardware that won them their victories, it was their command and control, the quality of training, experience of the units, and most importantly but most often overlooked an incredibly effective logistics system. In short, getting the right assets to the right places, and having people very good at using them.

thank you for the interesting information and also nice to know, when I stated "best armor and weapons" I meant in comparison of others at an engineer's perspective.

[GENPATT0N]

ohsi, on Mar 24 2012 - 03:29, said:

(of course, that's why Germans took the T-34 design and developed the Panther after it...)



(Perhaps a world war was going on there, maybe the Russians were fighting for their invaded country and their murdered civilians, mothers, sisters, sons).



(Russians were always evil people, that's what hollywood tell us)

even before it was still miserable a standing resolve of why there structure failed to work.
as for your "Russians where evil people, that's what hollywood tells us" if the U.S. was not present after the war in europe then they would have advanced and also look into this if we had "finished them off" we could have avoided the cold war, the cuban missle crises, and Vietnam PLUS the Russians supplied the middle east with there weapons during the cold war (even though it bit them in the ass when they tried to invade Afghanistan)

basically any events involving communism.

[The more negative marks I get, just shows how many noobs I encounter.]

[GENPATT0N]

I love it how I got -2 for bringing in History

[GENPATT0N]

Zedzded, on Mar 24 2012 - 05:51, said:

Dear OP,

Please read more before making overly-simplistic posts like this.

As much as I'd like to, I won't grammar-Nazi your post, as you might have been rushed while writing this at your college computer lab. If I had written like this in college, I would have never received a degree.

Meh

[Elepole]

I'm a tank buff, i don't know everything, but i know a lot ... and i learn more everyday.

[Chumbucket]

speedowow, on Mar 24 2012 - 08:11, said:

Yes, I know quite abit about each tank in game.  Was in US Army, Armored Command and then taught at US Army War College.  

I have been to all the major tank museums, Bovington/Kubinka/Saumar/Aberdeen/Patton/Germany/Finish/Isreali/private collections.  I have been reading and modeling all kinds of military gear for last 30+ years.  So, know in detail each tank in-game.

But, I am sad with all the liberties the developers have taken in reguard with every tank in-game.  Speed of Tiger I/Tiger II has not been addressed.  Along with several issues with some Russian/American tanks.  And then they bring out the French tanks before the British?  All in effort to make the game more even?  Bullshit.

Anyway. Nice Post. Very glad to see several other tank afficionos in game.

Cheers...

Facinating!  Any historical info you could share would be really cool!

[GENPATT0N]

ohsi, on Mar 24 2012 - 07:20, said:

¿? Allies (USSR, USA, Commonwealth) won the war. I don't get your point.
Innocents? Civilians, for sure, like in any war. Soldiers, well they know what could happen to them, like any other army. The leaders? No, of course, Soviet leader wasn't innocent at all, Stalin was a cruel dictator. That fact does not deny the fact of the dead civilians.



Yep, I like my logic, "brother". And no, I don't believe in what hollywood can tell me about any war.
And yes, I do believe in what I've read (not from hollywood, relax) about evil humanless nazis. You do not, brother?

you ask the Russians who won the war they will specify in saying there was no allies it was Russia who won the war. (courteous of our Russian exchange student)

[The more negative marks I get, just shows how many noobs I encounter.]

[GENPATT0N]

Xenophonic, on Mar 24 2012 - 07:52, said:

Actually, beg to differ re the history on the early period of WWII.  Germans were out armoured massively by french, and those matildas just bounced shells.  Where they did well was in the 'invisible' stuff, like radios in every tank, extra crew member, good armoured doctrine.  And they didn't know how to deal with the KV until learnt to track it and let the arty finish it off.  That's my snapshot, but good stuff.

PS funny poll, no one admits to knowing nothing lol.

matilda was a British tank and ya I was hoping the "children" would pick the no lol

[GENPATT0N]

The only reason I keep getting negatives is because one of the major things to not post on this forum is facts lol or even have a legitimate discussion for that matter.

[Sierra1968]

First, couple of clarifications.  The main reason the Soviets did so poorly early in Barbarossa, was mainly due to the fact that a paranoid man, one Josef Stalin, leader of the U.S.S.R., initiated a HUGH purge of the officer corps in the mid to late 30's, because he was afraid of being overthrown, and removed from office.  Several THOUSAND "disloyal" officers and tens of thousands of civilians for that matter too, were either tried and executed, or sent off to Gulags in Siberia, where the survival rate was exceedingly low.  Yes Hitler was not any better, probably worse by most accounts, but don't sugar-coat the Russians either.  Early in the war, Stalin also had several Generals executed for cowardice, believing that the stick was better than the carrot.  Also, the NKVD troops were the BEST equipped troops in the early Soviet army, and their job was to ensure the the front line troops STAYED on the front line (or risk summary execution for cowardice).  German troops treated Russian POW's VERY poorly, and Political officers were executed immediately upon capture (so they wouldn't cause any trouble), and both the Russians AND Germans committed terrible atrocities on both civilians and soldiers.  You do realize that the survival rate of German POW's in Russian captivity was about 10%, right?  Stalingrad, 90,000 POW's captured, less than 9,000 went back to Germany,after the war, and some not until 1947, TWO FULL YEARS AFTER WW2 ENDED!  If you don't believe any of the above, go ahead and do a little researching in a military history or college library, NOT with Google/online searching.  Do it the old fashioned way, by reading a book.

Ok, enough about the history revision going on in the forums.  I'm a WW2 tank buff and know a little bit about a lot of the tanks in-game.  I know a good deal more about German armor, because it amazes me how many different tanks, TD's and SPG's Germany cobbled together in WW2.  They also used quite a few captured vehicles too, as did the Russians.  The SU 85i, was a captured StuG III that the Russians converted to carry the 85mm gun.  There was also an SS division equipped with (entirely?) T-34's, because they captured an intact factory, and it produced tanks for the better part of a year, IIRC.  The Marder II was a direct result of the Panzer III's inferiority to the Sovier T-34 and KV series.  It was a stop-gap vehicle that mounted the 75mm PaK 43 AT gun, to give the German army sufficient fire-power to knock out the new Soviet tanks they encountered.  The Panzer IV/F2, mounting the 75mm L/48 gun was also a direct result of the superior Russian armor encountered on the Eastern Front.  Those are a couple of tid-bits off the top of my head.

[GENPATT0N]

Sierra1968, on Mar 25 2012 - 01:56, said:

First, couple of clarifications.  The main reason the Soviets did so poorly early in Barbarossa, was mainly due to the fact that a paranoid man, one Josef Stalin, leader of the U.S.S.R., initiated a HUGH purge of the officer corps in the mid to late 30's, because he was afraid of being overthrown, and removed from office.  Several THOUSAND "disloyal" officers and tens of thousands of civilians for that matter too, were either tried and executed, or sent off to Gulags in Siberia, where the survival rate was exceedingly low.  Yes Hitler was not any better, probably worse by most accounts, but don't sugar-coat the Russians either.  Early in the war, Stalin also had several Generals executed for cowardice, believing that the stick was better than the carrot.  Also, the NKVD troops were the BEST equipped troops in the early Soviet army, and their job was to ensure the the front line troops STAYED on the front line (or risk summary execution for cowardice).  German troops treated Russian POW's VERY poorly, and Political officers were executed immediately upon capture (so they wouldn't cause any trouble), and both the Russians AND Germans committed terrible atrocities on both civilians and soldiers.  You do realize that the survival rate of German POW's in Russian captivity was about 10%, right?  Stalingrad, 90,000 POW's captured, less than 9,000 went back to Germany,after the war, and some not until 1947, TWO FULL YEARS AFTER WW2 ENDED!  If you don't believe any of the above, go ahead and do a little researching in a military history or college library, NOT with Google/online searching.  Do it the old fashioned way, by reading a book.

Ok, enough about the history revision going on in the forums.  I'm a WW2 tank buff and know a little bit about a lot of the tanks in-game.  I know a good deal more about German armor, because it amazes me how many different tanks, TD's and SPG's Germany cobbled together in WW2.  They also used quite a few captured vehicles too, as did the Russians.  The SU 85i, was a captured StuG III that the Russians converted to carry the 85mm gun.  There was also an SS division equipped with (entirely?) T-34's, because they captured an intact factory, and it produced tanks for the better part of a year, IIRC.  The Marder II was a direct result of the Panzer III's inferiority to the Sovier T-34 and KV series.  It was a stop-gap vehicle that mounted the 75mm PaK 43 AT gun, to give the German army sufficient fire-power to knock out the new Soviet tanks they encountered.  The Panzer IV/F2, mounting the 75mm L/48 gun was also a direct result of the superior Russian armor encountered on the Eastern Front.  Those are a couple of tid-bits off the top of my head.

nice thank you for your contribution

[Rimrender]

Extensively.
Though not as deep into individual specs for that period as the late cold war when I joined the army

[DrenMadre]

Started with Tamiya plastic models at 9-10 years old????

Next, when asked where to go for a family vacation, I said "Aberdeen Proving Grounds"

Spent 1991 to 2004 as a 19K (for non-Army people, that's a M1 series tanker)

Yea....I know some sh*t  

[jsgx3]

Fascinating Book on the large picture.

Deathride: Hitler vs. Stalin - The Eastern Front, 1941-1945

Author: John Mosier

This book will put the history in a new perspective.  It demands careful consideration because a good portion of the horse manure we have been fed as history is just that, crap.

[TDawg]

I don't know too much but I'm slowly learning bits and pieces here and there from watching "Greatest Tank Battles" on the Military channel, and also while looking up answers for the twitter quizzes.

I've also looked up some info here and there when I've gotten bored, but nothing too much.

[Reichsadler]

One thing I learnt (unrelated to WW2) is that Russian T- model medium tanks from the cold war era are very easy to kill.

Its like they've stuck to the same ideaology of pumping out easy to use machines without any regard for the crew. Is that still true today with their T-90?


This is what a Soviet T-55 turret looks like when it gets hit from a small 6 ton vechicle carrying just a 90mm gun.

http://iforce.co.nz/i/jdtg2lds.a41.jpg

[Dodge_The_Bullet]

ferdinands couldnt go uphill cuase the engine was weak... they would spontainiously explode if they tried to go up a hill

[severance_p0p]

jsgx3, on Mar 25 2012 - 03:28, said:

Fascinating Book on the large picture.

Deathride: Hitler vs. Stalin - The Eastern Front, 1941-1945

Author: John Mosier

This book will put the history in a new perspective.  It demands careful consideration because a good portion of the horse manure we have been fed as history is just that, crap.

I will have to read that One.

Another good book on that subject, well Two books are Stalingrad and the Road to Berlin by Antony Beavor. Excellent books