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Maus armor


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JocaTrica #41 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 06:41

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View PostFRlTZ, on Sep 24 2010 - 00:51, said:

the german 128L61 was ready in 1944.

So what? 130 mm S-70 was also fully operational in 1944. Reason it wasn't used is the same one why T-44 has never been deployed: simply, there was no need. T-34 armed with 85 mm gun was more than a match for everything that Germans would throw against it (notice that it could frontally penetrate Panther up to 900 m and Tiger up to 1300 m). For the rest of you QQ'ers, take a look at this graph showing armor penetration curves of the most widely used Soviet and Allied tank guns vs German armor, and bear in mind average distances on which tank battles in WoT are usually happening. Ranges from 0-100 m are not even included here, as well as 100, 107, 130 and 152 mm guns.

http://www.battlefie...netration_e.gif

soulspectre #42 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 06:57

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Ranges in the game are not equivalent to ranges in real life. The devs have already stated that they've scaled the ranges to reflect a close combat system on small maps.

sharpeh #43 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 06:58

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Again, balance > realism

hazywater #44 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 07:08

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This discussion of history is both widely inaccurate and unproductive.

soulspectre #45 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 07:21

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View Posthazywater, on Sep 24 2010 - 07:08, said:

This discussion of history is both widely inaccurate and unproductive.

True that. I don't care one bit for realism. Gameplay should always have priority over realism, with realism only being included when it has little or no effect on gameplay. No point having a realistic game if no-one enjoys playing it. Image if the devs made it ultra-realistic where you could have a game where one team outnumbers the other 4 to 1, being played on an unbalanced map with unbalanced tiering- might be realistic but it would be utter rubbish for enjoyment. Players who cite realism as being a reason not to include a feature are strangely silent when it comes to other realism breaking features such as team-balance.

JocaTrica #46 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 07:21

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View Postsharpeh, on Sep 24 2010 - 06:58, said:

Again, balance > realism

I agree. But then, I'd recommend fanboys to stop pulling historical (or better: quasi historical) data to support their demands to buff German or nerf Russian tanks because fully realistic approach would be even worse for them. For example, in such realistic setup King Tiger (let alone Maus) would be so expensive to use that hardly anyone could afford to take that monstrosity out of their garage.

Finally, we should have access to detailed server stats (k/d ratio and such) to tell if Russian tanks are really OP, or we are here dealing only with subjective or openly biased personal views.

leonidesalinas #47 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 07:26

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i remember when the Maus was unkillable. pre-patch maus was a rolling fortress. absolutely invincible. :)

Calle30 #48 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 09:13

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Russian game , russian developers. Oh, and did you notice most people defending the IS-7 and saying the Maus is ok have ... zomg .... russian style avatars and stuff ?

Game is HUGELY biased in the direction of the russians. Why do you think I switched from german tanks to the ruskies ? Now I got a T-44 and working my way to a IS-7. Just to be OP.

Everyone who says they arent OP is just bloody blind or wants to stay OP for easy kills.

CommissionerJan #49 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 09:20

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View PostJocaTrica, on Sep 24 2010 - 07:21, said:

Finally, we should have access to detailed server stats (k/d ratio and such) to tell if Russian tanks are really OP, or we are here dealing only with subjective or openly biased personal views.
Yes.

sharpeh #50 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 09:32

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View PostJocaTrica, on Sep 24 2010 - 07:21, said:

Finally, we should have access to detailed server stats (k/d ratio and such) to tell if Russian tanks are really OP, or we are here dealing only with subjective or openly biased personal views.

The devs have said info, if it proves anything then the devs are already working on it, and if not then they are not :D

soulspectre #51 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 09:37

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View PostCalle30, on Sep 24 2010 - 09:13, said:

Russian game , russian developers. Oh, and did you notice most people defending the IS-7 and saying the Maus is ok have ... zomg .... russian style avatars and stuff ?

Game is HUGELY biased in the direction of the russians. Why do you think I switched from german tanks to the ruskies ? Now I got a T-44 and working my way to a IS-7. Just to be OP.

Everyone who says they arent OP is just bloody blind or wants to stay OP for easy kills.

I seriously doubt that the devs are going to sabotage the game due to nationalistic pride.

Calle30 #52 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 10:00

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View Postsoulspectre, on Sep 24 2010 - 09:37, said:

I seriously doubt that the devs are going to sabotage the game due to nationalistic pride.

I would think the same, but I have 2 eyes, and what I see isnt pretty.

leonidesalinas #53 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 10:38

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View Postsoulspectre, on Sep 24 2010 - 09:37, said:

I seriously doubt that the devs are going to sabotage the game due to nationalistic pride.


you, sir, underestimate the Russians. the ruskies are VERY patriotic.

Hyena #54 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 11:48

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I have no problem with someone being patriotic and proud of where they come from, but that's not the issue here. The issue is, as a game developer, you are meant to be Neutral when making a PVP game. No one side should be so obviously superior, that defeats the entire purpose of having multiple factions. Over time the playerbase discovers which is superior and and ditches the weaker one, which results in a dull game that eventually everyone gets sick of. The bias towards Russian tanks wouldn't be that much of an issue if the devs hadn't said that there will be Nation vs Nation battles, but as they have.. it's a big problem. No one enjoys playing the 'weak' side and losing, that's not why people play games.

Balance is a hard thing to achieve in any PVP game and always needs constant tweaks and updates but far as I'm aware the WoT devs currently don't even concede that there is a problem, that's the worrying thing here. If they are working to better balance the Russian/German tanks then I apologize but I haven't really seen any evidence of that, or any reasoning for why some of the German tanks have been nerfed without reason, when they were already the weaker of that particular tier.

For the record I'm not a history fanboy or a German fanboy, although some level of accuracy is nice.. I don't think anyone here would really want to be playing if the game was 100% arcade. For the sake of this beta I've been splitting my time between both factions, not playing the game as I would if it was on release already- that's not the point of a beta. I'll freely admit I prefer the design of the German tanks, I find them more interesting, but after playing with tanks from the two sides there's no doubt in my mind which has been unfairly favoured. For a PVP game that's no good, the Russian fanboys with their IS-7s might not give a damn but that's very naive, short-sighted thinking. Anyone with half a braincell knows this is a serious problem for the longevity of the game, as it's doubtful even the Ruskie fans will stick around for too long once all the German players vanish and they're left with World of Russian Tanks. Any player that's currently sided with the German tanks isn't going to stick around for too long if the entire game feels like a constant uphill fight just to be equal with their Russian equivalents and I seriously doubt they'd ever be parting with any cash- which ultimately is what this game will need to survive.

If balance isn't found this will just be another failed PVP game to add to an already long list, which personally I'd rather not see happen.

CommissionerJan #55 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 12:02

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View PostWhiteHyena, on Sep 24 2010 - 11:48, said:

I have no problem with someone being patriotic and proud of where they come from, but that's not the issue here. The issue is, as a game developer, you are meant to be Neutral when making a PVP game. No one side should be so obviously superior, that defeats the entire purpose of having multiple factions. Over time the playerbase discovers which is superior and and ditches the weaker one, which results in a dull game that eventually everyone gets sick of. The bias towards Russian tanks wouldn't be that much of an issue if the devs hadn't said that there will be Nation vs Nation battles, but as they have.. it's a big problem. No one enjoys playing the 'weak' side and losing, that's not why people play games.

Balance is a hard thing to achieve in any PVP game and always needs constant tweaks and updates but far as I'm aware the WoT devs currently don't even concede that there is a problem, that's the worrying thing here. If they are working to better balance the Russian/German tanks then I apologize but I haven't really seen any evidence of that, or any reasoning for why some of the German tanks have been nerfed without reason, when they were already the weaker of that particular tier.

For the record I'm not a history fanboy or a German fanboy, although some level of accuracy is nice.. I don't think anyone here would really want to be playing if the game was 100% arcade. For the sake of this beta I've been splitting my time between both factions, not playing the game as I would if it was on release already- that's not the point of a beta. I'll freely admit I prefer the design of the German tanks, I find them more interesting, but after playing with tanks from the two sides there's no doubt in my mind which has been unfairly favoured. For a PVP game that's no good, the Russian fanboys with their IS-7s might not give a damn but that's very naive, short-sighted thinking. Anyone with half a braincell knows this is a serious problem for the longevity of the game, as it's doubtful even the Ruskie fans will stick around for too long once all the German players vanish and their left with World of Russian Tanks. Any player that's currently sided with the German tanks isn't going to stick around for too long if the entire game feels like a constant uphill fight just to be equal with their Russian equivalents and seriously doubt they'd ever be parting with any cash- which ultimately is what this game will need to survive.

If balance isn't found this will just be another failed PVP game to add to an already long list, which personally I'd rather not see.
As it is, we appear to have two problems: Germany is better up to Tier VI(Leo, Panzer III/IV, VK36, VK30P), and Soviets dominating Tiers IX and X (IS-4 & 7)

I persoanlly can't say much about the lower tiers, I just drive a Leo for the MarioKart lulz. . . and I recently got a Jagdpanzer IV (Which appears to be more of an illumination device: It moves towards the enemy, and then catches fire.)

But the high Tiers. . .let's put it like that: There will be no nation battles. At best you can have a Soviet civil war, because noone who is in his right mind will try to face a group of IS-4/7s with VK45s and Maus'.

T92_LT #56 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 12:17

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Do you guys actually think about what you write before you write it?

Quote

Russian game , russian developers. Oh, and did you notice most people defending the IS-7 and saying the Maus is ok have ... zomg .... russian style avatars and stuff ?

Game is HUGELY biased in the direction of the russians. Why do you think I switched from german tanks to the ruskies ? Now I got a T-44 and working my way to a IS-7. Just to be OP.
So your logic is that because the developer are Russian they will make it so that SOVIET (caps for a reason) Tanks are superior to all the others? That financial motivation and the desire to make a very good living for the next 5+ years from World of Tanks isn't enough to overcome a Russian bias? That because of nationalist pride in a regime that was gone before most of them even entered grade school is overriding their desire to make money? Wow.....

Apparently you know nothing about Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. If the devs were all in their 40s and 50s there might be a shred of validity in your arguments. But the fact is that the devs are all in their 20s or early 30s. They have grown up under capitalism and their game studio is a purely capitalistic venture. The bottom line is MONEY.

And furthermore, you guys are talking about a bias when we haven't even gotten the 3rd country introduced or even the full tank tree for the 2 countries we do have. Moreover, most of you are missing the point behind the VK4502 and the Maus. They are NOT assault tanks. They are meant to be defensive tanks. They excel at that and you will see a lot more of them when Clan Battles get introduced. If their flanks are protected even a little and the Scouts/Arty kill the opposing Arty then attacking a base that is defended by a Maus will probably be suicidal.

The_Black_Bishop #57 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 13:31

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View PostSykotic, on Sep 24 2010 - 12:17, said:

Do you guys actually think about what you write before you write it?


So your logic is that because the developer are Russian they will make it so that SOVIET (caps for a reason) Tanks are superior to all the others? That financial motivation and the desire to make a very good living for the next 5+ years from World of Tanks isn't enough to overcome a Russian bias? That because of nationalist pride in a regime that was gone before most of them even entered grade school is overriding their desire to make money? Wow.....

Apparently you know nothing about Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. If the devs were all in their 40s and 50s there might be a shred of validity in your arguments. But the fact is that the devs are all in their 20s or early 30s. They have grown up under capitalism and their game studio is a purely capitalistic venture. The bottom line is MONEY.

And furthermore, you guys are talking about a bias when we haven't even gotten the 3rd country introduced or even the full tank tree for the 2 countries we do have. Moreover, most of you are missing the point behind the VK4502 and the Maus. They are NOT assault tanks. They are meant to be defensive tanks. They excel at that and you will see a lot more of them when Clan Battles get introduced. If their flanks are protected even a little and the Scouts/Arty kill the opposing Arty then attacking a base that is defended by a Maus will probably be suicidal.

My emphasis with bolded letters there...

Have you even driven a Maus? Because what you say is hogwash! In a defensive position you are very vulnerable due to the size of the tank and the horrible turret-traverse. Once you get flanked by a T8+ you can start counting and within a count of 30 you'll be dead.

The only situation a Maus shines is when facing Tier 7 and below tanks and that's not how it will be in clan battles now is it?

At a comparable tier (9-10) the Maus is dead weight. A JagdTiger (and I suspect the tier 9 ruski TD) will hand it its ass. Same with IS-4 with gun-upgrade and the IS-7.

What you obviously fail to understand is exactly how inefficient the Maus is compared to IS-7. I refrain from commenting on the VK4502 because I haven tried it. What I saw of it in battles was enough to make me cringe and skip it entirely. The rear-turret design is in itself a horrible design.

As others have stated, we are not really looking for historic correctness here...what we are looking for is some kind of resemblance of balance. And that goes completely out the window once you hit tier 9 and 10 in the heavy tank trees.

And concerning the accusations of russian bias...the balance issues at tier 9/10 are glaring. I for one refuse to believe the developers are so inept that they dont see this. I think they are watching the data and are seeing the same thing we are. The real problem is communication and letting the playerbase know they are aware of the situation. And as long as they refrain from commenting the accusations will continue because it is such an obvious connection...russian tanks overpowered (or german tanks underpowered as you wish), game developed by russians. I'm not saying thats the case, I'm just saying thats how it looks. So devs, please do yourself and the game a favor...acknowledge to us (the playerbase) that there are balancing issues at the top tier and that you are looking at it. Please.

Asky #58 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 14:03

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View PostSykotic, on Sep 24 2010 - 12:17, said:

They are NOT assault tanks. They are meant to be defensive tanks. They excel at that and you will see a lot more of them when Clan Battles get introduced. If their flanks are protected even a little and the Scouts/Arty kill the opposing Arty then attacking a base that is defended by a Maus will probably be suicidal.


View PostRoberbar, on Sep 24 2010 - 13:31, said:

Have you even driven a Maus? Because what you say is hogwash! In a defensive position you are very vulnerable due to the size of the tank and the horrible turret-traverse. Once you get flanked by a T8+ you can start counting and within a count of 30 you'll be dead.


I saw many matches when people attacked the base with a maus defending, and they lost. Playing with Maus require more brain and teamwork.
Also this russian line superior it's kinda crap. Maybe some tanks are better, but now i m trying german medium line and 3001P is a really a good tank, i like it more than 34-85, i like VKDB more than t-43 it's way more agile. I can't wait to get the panther to see what is made of. German td line is more agile than ruskie. Up to Ferdi u can't circle them

T92_LT #59 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 14:12

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Thank you Asky for highlighting the appropriate sentences. I was about to reply when I saw you had made the same arguments I would have made. My point is very simple: With good teamwork the Maus and VK4502 are VERY good defensive tanks. The JagdTiger and Ferdinand are also very good defensive vehicles. As is the ISU-152. The IS-4 and IS-7 can be defensive tanks as well, but they are more suited to a more aggressive style of play.

p.s. This whole bolding things and coloring them is fun!

Hyena #60 Posted Sep 24 2010 - 14:27

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Sorry Sykotic, I gotta say you're talking garbage.

No one here is claiming that the devs are soviets or anything like that, so don't be stupid. The idea that devs of a game would want to make their particular countries side better than a rival isn't so crazy, stupid but not so crazy. Moreover the main question from people that ask why the game is biased towards Russian is 'Why?' because there does seem like there's little reason behind it- aside the possibility of national pride.

The fact that there isn't yet another country in the game makes no difference at all to the content that is currently in the game, so again I fail to see your point here. Adding American tanks won't make any differences to German or Russian ones, will it? It means there will be more variety in battles which is a good thing, but it doesn't mean people will magically forget the fact that Russian > German.

Lastly your comments about the Maus and VK are ridiculous and it's no surprise to me that you've never played either of them. No tank is specifically designed to be solely used for attack or defense so making such a statement is pure fiction. Moreover, as others have already said since when is a Maus/VK any better at defending than any other heavy? Short answer; They aren't. There are so many misinformed players that will throw up that old 'You're playing it wrong!' argument when someone complains about a tank being weaker than its tier rival and sorry that really isn't the case here. The Maus/VK were never designed to be 'defensive' tanks and even if you do play them in such a conservative manner, that does not mean an IS-7 can't still tear you apart with ease. Next you'll be saying 'With support they are great!' which is another stupid throwaway comment, considering the fact that, well, almost any tank is good with the right support. The only thing your statement actually implies is what we already know to be true already- you say a Maus should be defensive, now why is that? Maybe it's because at the moment the Maus is insanely slow and has reduced armour, making it an incredibly easy and vulnerable target to kill. Now lets look at the IS-7- it's fast, low profile, rounded armour.. meaning it's very hard to kill. So does that mean you'd class the IS-7 as an Aggressive tank? Because if so all you're really doing here is proving the point that all Maus drivers are complaining about which is, when the two tanks are compared, the IS-7 is superior in almost every single way, which isn't very balanced now is it? :)

With the current state of this game, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we see any Maus/VKs in clan battles. My bet is we'll see nothing but T-44s, arty and IS tanks.




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