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Tds have too many handicaps. First, the most obvious is that they dont have turrets. Because of this they pretty much cannot hit moving targets. They have to move the whole hull, which is slower, and then also move the gun for fine tuning, and wait for reaming. Easy for fast enemy to bypass a TD. Getting beside or behind them is death sentence.

Low hull also means they have bad gun arc.
Cant really move and fire as well.
Missing massive chunks of HP.
Poor sight range
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By choice i would pretty much never use Tank Destroyers. Heavy tanks have the same gun or better at the same tier, a huge chunk more hp, firing while moving, firing behind you, and so on.

Tds main benefit, camo bonus, is kinda worthless as without Camouflage crew its weak, and the low sight range means they are just as likely to spot the enemy as the enemy is to spot them.

really without the proper equipment, or crew skills, Tds are hugely hadicapped.

Should they, at the very least, have more HP?
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To be clear Im talking tier 2-7, not 8-9. 8-9 have bigger guns and equal or better armor.

Su-85(350hp) and Kv-2(660hp) same tier, Jagdpanther(850 hp) and Panther(1270hp) same tiers

i got a t95 and a object 704 bro ....and i have no problem with them at all .........i really dont know what r u talking about http://forum.worldof...ile_sceptic.gif

They seem to have many disadvantages but they tend to have above 50% win percentages across the board, which is why it is difficult to justify a buff. They also have less matchmaking weight than heavies.

Hi Chaos,

Those are all valid points you have stated.

One could probably argue that having a lower HP pool means TDs are usually relegated to 2nd line support and are not as efficient in heavies as leading a charge down a flank / column.

Means a smart TD driver has to rely on other heavy tanks to light up targets for them, and rely on their high alpha guns to take them out as efficiently as possible without getting detected.

I would argue that by virtue of being at the frontlines most of the time, heavies NEED that extra hp. Think of it not as a disadvantage to the TD, but as a necessity to heavies who would otherwise get taken out before they even make it to the enemy base. Once again, TDs should be a 2nd line of support, not at the front.

wolfsoldier, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:21, said:

He was talking tier 2-7, he already mentioned that tier 8-9 was fine

Some of the middle TDs do have problems. The tradeoff for not having the turret is usually to mount more armor and a bigger gun, a perfectly balanced tradeoff in my opinion. Then becuase they have more armor and a bigger gun, Wargamming thinks they can be matched higher than other tanks of thier tier. I do agree THAT is a handicap, as the higher matchmaking becomes a second negative effect for one positive. But this really only hurts the mid tier TDs. At tier 2-3, where the matchmaking hasn't spread out yet, or 7-9, where it's closed up again they are perfectly fine.

Well they aren't handicapped much. Sure having no turret makes them a bit harder, but they get their TD camo bonus which makes up for it. As it says, TD are suppose to be ambushers, not front line bruisers.

Now, this is bad for people like me with basic graphic cards, which makes aiming through trees/bushes a lagfest, making playing a TD impossible to be played for what it is meant to be used for, but those with great graphic cards can use TD excellent. So, they aren't handicapped too much in my opinion. They are meant to attack from ambush which they do very well if you have the cards to do it. Me, i can't shoot through 1 bush much less multiple ones. They have good guns, strong front armor and hide very well. They are weak vs arti and side/flank shots, but what isn't.

To make the most advantage, you need a good graphic card, high camo bonus and vision to see what your shooting at. Thats your TD in an nutshell. I enjoy my TD's often more than my tanks because my TD's are usually faster, have better guns. My current TD is faster than my topped off Chaffee. Sad i know. Of course it has 200 less hps, but still, faster than a high end light tank? Plus its low outline and slight camo bonus really seem to pay off in many places. If only i could actually use it for shooting through bushes/trees like its made to do.

Blizzard36, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:27, said:

see that seems fair, compared to medium tanks, not heavy tanks.

example #1-su-85 has a big firepower boost over the t-34, both in real life, and ingame.

example #2-jagdpanther has a much better gun in the L/71 over the 75mm the Panther normally has, ingame the Panther gets a much better gun, technically making it better, reversing the situation.
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as for ambushing, the game kinda hates it. You either are broken, with huge sight range and so much camouflage that you invisible to 50meters, or like me, you're just a bit hard to see and can see a little farther than average.

If/when the game actually allows vehicles long range, Tank Destroyers may actually fight in long range combat, like they are ment to excel in.

mrvwbug, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:26, said:

Whats wrong with jp?

Chaosticket, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:14, said:

Spgs 2 , they haven't armour. Pen sux, reloading time sux. They have low hp.
Tanks can make more dmg per min. They only have range. And they arent so accurate like tanks ( fully aimed aiming circle is bigger than tank.

I look at this from an endgame perspective and I have to agree, TDs just seem far to weak to have any use. Mid tier TDs are handicapped with low HP pools and low DPM compared to their heavies, and high tier ones are just missing to much health and lacking a turret to compete on the global map. How would we fix this though? One idea I've thought about is a dpm nerf for heavies and mediums to TDs have a larger lead. The alternative of buffing their DPM seems like it might just make everything ridiculously fast.

Also as everyone believes TDs are meant to be camo based, under this assumption the Ferdinand/Jagtiger really need their camo values buffed. As it is many heavy tanks have better camo than those tank destroyers.

TD's are not a forward moving tank, TD's are a hide and pop shot, the only time in war they were not used as a hide and take easy shots was during Vietnam where they were used to take out houses with enemies in them (you can see this in full metal jacket actually with the M10)

gnerdrage, on Apr 09 2012 - 09:19, said:

Heavy tanks also actually aimed their tank head on to other tanks instead of angling, the game plays out differently from how things worked during the war.

Mow_Mow, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:23, said:

It would be difficult to justify a buff if global winrates really told you how good a vehicle was. Wargaming seems to think global stats are the last word in balance - that's why we won't see a buff to the VK4502P despite it being inferior in almost every way to the E-75. "Within acceptable limits".

The conundrum we are left with is why TDs overperform in pubs but are nonexistent in any kind of competitive matches. No TC commander wants some TD floating around in place of an IS3, not keeping up with the team and representing a marginal firepower increase in exhcange for being unable to fend off things from two directions.  For a platoon trying to win randoms at all costs, TDs are the last thing they want to be caught in. The best players play worse in TDs than in mediums or heavies as far as I can tell, because they are tactically inflexible.  The fact that they are regarded as trash outside of pubs and that good players can win much more easily using medium tanks tells me that regardless of what the global stats say, TDs are objectively worse than other vehicles. This is also evidenced by the fact that barely anyone drives them. My Jagdtiger is collecting dust in the corner.

TDs have higher global winrates because more skilled players use TDs. That's my theory.

My theory is that TDs have the biggest boomsticks, and in pubs, your ability to hit hard dictates how well you do.

In CW, that is another story. Yea, they are inflexible, easily destroyed, and their guns are only slightly better then T10 heavies.

97vitezkoja, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:52, said:

Yeah no. SPGs can shoot across the map over obstacles and have satellite assist aiming and a few SPGs have the capacity to one shot Tier 9 and even Tier 10 vehicles.

just asking, how many times you died because of good invisible marder2 driver asking a question "wtf??? my mighty KV killed by tier 3???",

they don't charge with screams of bravery & honor at enemy lines, they are silent killers of the battlefield, like little ninjas - hiding in bushes and waiting for you to trap into their ambush... if they are good ofc., if not, they die like rest of bad drivers, providing encouragement to makes post like this one

Tier 9 TDs are the only ones with comparable heath compared to their tier. All others tend to have less health than even the light tanks of their tier.

Problem is their role is a bit too specialised and only a few who know what to do really play them. For a pub, if they make them any better they will dominate with the current TD players. This will lead to more bad players playing them which will normalise the stats a bit but that will take time, during which screams of OP will ring out over the forum.

Not sure what to do to make them more useful in comps apart from increased HP (and a better gun for the JagdPanzer IV). Make them roughly equal to the mediums at least. Especially the ones without turrets that don't get the upgraded turret HP bonus.

Otto_matic_Reiffel, on Apr 09 2012 - 10:08, said:

T9 TDs have health comparable to other T9s but they need to compete with T10s in CW. Mediums have higher DPM and they can scout out positions over heavy tanks, so they have a niche in cw still. T9 TDs have higher DPM exclusively, but that DPM isn't much higher compared to what they lose out on. If you're going to compare the top end tanks of certain lines with stepping stones in other lines you'll never really balance anything competitively.

you forgot on your post:
they can't angle their armor while returning fire - no turret.
its hard to ambush effectively - if the enemy knows there's a TD waiting for them (also very easy to predict due to maps not being big enough, they won't push forward and will instead let the TD come to them or have the TD scouted/flanked.
they are either mobile with paper armor or have a so so mobility with a frontal armor that can be penned by 80% of the enemy with ease.
lacks pen to kill/damage heavies (or even some meds) before they get spotted, damaged, or killed.