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Tank destroyers have lowered hull points because otherwise you'd see TD rushes everywhere, just bursting in and blasting everyone to kingdom come with their far superior firing rates (low tier) or superior damage and penetration (high tier).

Instead of Lorraine and AMX 13 90 wolfpacks, you will have JagdPanther and SU-152 wolfpacks.

Thet need to be weaker so they more readily know their place on the battlefield.

Tier 9 Tank Destroyer is probably the King of "Being 1 shot by artillery". I meant I played my Object 212 and I 1shotted countless of Jagtiger and T95. Why play TD when heavies offered the comparable powerful gun with a turret?

 mrvwbug, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:26, said:

Well, reality is the complete opposite. T9 is the worse tier there is for TDs. Outgunned, out armored, out everything.

I have a JT and an Object, they are the most useless vehicles your team can have. Only reason they seem okay is because the enemy also has useless TDs. If they were good, they would be used in clan wars.

er...well, the OP has a Jpanther...with only 7 games in it at this posting, I am guessing that he is still working on getting the taste of the Jpanzer IV out of his mouth.

TD's in the mid-range game aren't easy to deal with. IF you are the top or near top tank, then you are generally expected to carry the team...and this is ALWAYS a bad idea...as has been stated, TD's are lacking the HP pool that most tanks of similar tier have, however their guns GENERALLY will own anything that is similar tier and below. Case in point IS the JPanther...the 10.5 CM gun this thing carries is a monster vs all tier 7's. The reload rate is rather scary for a gun this size. Same can be said for the T25 (although the US 105 bounces a bit more it seems, but that is another story).

IF you aren't top tier, but mid-range tier and have 8's and 9's above you then you are a bottom feeder, pure and simple. you will spot the tanks that are hurt and take them out of the game (kinda like the way arty is SUPPOSED to work...) you operate behind the front lines about 100-200 meters depending on the map you're on. (Providence is NOT in this sample....this map is teh devil and will always be teh devil until spotting mechanics are fixed)

So...if you are top tier, pray you have understanding mediums or heavies a tier below you that don't mind going out to find the baddies...otherwise you will get hurt.
IF you aren't top tier, then go out and play scavenger and get the hits in when you can...tracking a tank for arty or heavies, hitting the fast-movers, so on and so forth.


OF COURSE, this doesn't always work out the way anyone plans...we ALL have to deal with floor-lickers and oxygen thieves that manage to log on and think that internet tanks is such a cool game.


L P

the jagdtiger actually has great gun depression...its just tall and has to hull down like an american heavy

ill say my su 85 is borderline op, bottom or top of my list im wrecking face, but the su 100 feels like im driving a loltraktor into a is 7 parade, its the first td ive hated.

it hink the only problem with tds right now are, peopelcamp to much in heavies, and it takes our role away, and were stuck having to trod about while the mauses are all sitting ina bush giggling.

 teamoldmill, on Apr 09 2012 - 12:31, said:

T9 is when TDs get "balanced" IMHO. Their HP is bumped up relative to other tanks and they get the best guns in game.

The T5-6 TDs seem to have the worst of it; in most cases, same-tier mediums have the same gun.

But they are tank destroyers ..not mediums not heavies not SPG'S ..they are supposed to be a compromise ..and a cheap easy way to put guns in the field that are good at either " direct fire assault " ex,  blow up fortification for infantry ..without the need to use a real tank.
Or an anti tank gun that moves.

Read up on TD history and tactical use.
Or just use the MarderII as an example and google it.

You know US" Tank Destroyers " started out with a 75 mm on a half track?
The Germans used captured or obsolete hulls to mount guns on?
As Did the Russians.
Then they evolved into a dedicated role you found some great examples., but still a compromise.
Take US TD line.
Recycled hulls until the Hellcat was made as a " dedicated TD " line.
Chieftain 's hatch can give lots of insight on TD line.
But its important you realise your using a compromise type with special tactics developed to get the best out of it as a " support " type,  much like an SPG.
The fact clans do not use TD'S reflects reality,  why drive a comprise when you have enough real tanks?

 ledhed14, on Apr 09 2012 - 14:21, said:

Assault guns and tank destroyers are borderline the same thing, but you don't exactly have bunkers, machine gun nests, and infantry in this game. Tank destroyers like the SU-100, Stug III, Firefly (yes, I consider Firefly a TD), and M-18 were very effective at their roles because they brought the much needed firepower to knock out the heaviest armored enemy tanks.

 Skpstr, on Apr 09 2012 - 14:18, said:

The SU-85 is more favorite T5 tank. Look it up, it has basically the same 107mm as the KV and you can two shot basically any T5 tank.

Some of the low to mid tier TDs are a bit stinky.  But then you have others like the JPanther and the SU85...no need to buff these at all.  They suffer from the stock tank syndrome like all the others, but once max'd they are extremely effective for pub matches.  On top of that, seeing a Ferdi have an 11 kill match pretty much seals the deal with regards to no buff.

I've never done CW or company battles, so I can comment for those.

Many mounted guns that wouldn't be practical in a tank turret - certainly.
But it was cheaper and faster to put guns on tracks than to build a heavy tank or design a turret that would fit the gun.
The Firefly is n up gunned,  Sherman.
To get the 17lb anti tank gun to fit they cut out the back of the Sherman turret and made " modifications " to enable its use.
It ended up being used in the TD role all tanks are supposed to perform because it had the best gun for the job.
But then it went right back into the medium tank role.

Of all TDs i consider only tier 3 ones (Marder) to really deserve their name, plus the SU85, all other mount mostly guns as same tier heavies (stug3 and pz4, jagdpnazer 4 and VK3601) annd have no real advantages over heavies, rof and camo bonus are useless most of the time.

Simply, TDs lack in firepower and line of sight, if those two stats would shine, lack of a turret, armor, and HP, would be justifiable.

Even the "imba" Su85 looses its reason to exist when you have a heavy tank with the same top gun, more HP, far better armor, and only marginally less mobility and speed.

So yes, TDs need a good fat upgrade, or drop a tier.

 ComeAndSee, on Apr 09 2012 - 14:14, said:

Hps bumped up? You mean 1600-1800 compared to 2200-2400 of the heavies? Best guns in the game, you mean the 155 and the 152 of the American and Soviet line with less DPM than a medium tank? The whopping 70 more damage of the Jagdtiger than heavy tanks? You mean the very slight penetration advantage of 9-19 mm they enjoy?

And they get all those super gun advantages in exchange for being terrible at every single other aspect of the game? No thanks. A smart player will play a 110 for firepower, a Maus for armor, any French tank for quick kills, and a Patton for sustained DPM and mobility. Any of those tanks, even the Maus can snipe just dandy.

No, TDs are just a gimmick, only balanced because with a huge amount of battles, they will eventually equal out in win percentage. A team is always, always better off taking a heavy or a medium depending on the situation. Clan wars shows this more than anything. Maps are designed against sniping. No camo at all for German line. Sight distance is constrained, heavies get the same penetration and accuracy for all intents and purposes. No reason to play a TD but for the love of the vehicles. I like my JT because it is a JT and a historical marvel. I understand it is terrible at what it does in this game.

Open up view range, give stationary TDs an extra 100 meter sight range, give them 20-40 more penetration and more alpha. Then they will be feared. No reason in hell an Object704 should be out dpm'd by  heavy, or a Jagdtiger should have barely more alpha and less burst than a French heavy.

 ncpinz, on Apr 09 2012 - 14:43, said:

Meh, haven't done CW battles but company battles are usually matches with non-stop 6 KV-3 team's at the medium tier. Standard battles are more balanced.

I thought the Soviet line was pretty good (albeit the SU-76/85 suffered from open roof syndrome). The SU-85 was a major overhaul from the SU-85B because it had better protection and an insanely powerful gun. It handles like a medium tank and cruises at 50 km/hh. The MMer is still RNG, but you can still reasonably penetrate T8's with your gun.

It's once you hit the SU-100 that things start going downhill. Your top tier gun isn't much better than the 107mm and you're more often fighting increasingly better protected + armed heavy tanks. Its a horrible grind the next tiers until you get the BL-10 mounted on your ISU-152. You go from having a little pecker gun to a sledge hammer.

The one aspect of TD's I would buff is View Range.  The TD was often a weapon of suprise and defense as much as offense.  Hidden in the brush, camo'd up, waiting for the enemy to come to them, watching in a tank that didn't move much.

 Warfish, on Apr 09 2012 - 15:16, said:

Yup. And I think only when stationary. A built in super binocs would give them an edge without getting too silly. Jagdtiger is as visible as a large heavy tank with at best a few meters view range advantage. A Tank destroyer, set up for ambush, should be able to see rather well, shouldn't it?

Kind of useless to be seen as soon as you open up with a TD, and completely vulnerable to arty and return fire because the maps don't allow long lanes of fire and everything can see as far or further than you.

 Chaosticket, on Apr 09 2012 - 08:14, said:

when you have learned to play tds you will not have these kind of complaints

 Warfish, on Apr 09 2012 - 15:16, said:

IMHO it's not really needed. After playing the maps so many times I have a good grasp of all the good camping spots and my team usually spots for me. Sixth sense is a campers wet dream because it lets you know when the jig is up when you're hiding in a bush.

 drewivy, on Apr 09 2012 - 15:28, said:

Once you learn to play heavies and mediums, you won't have complaints at all. They do everything better than TDs.