200 replies to this topic

[teamoldmill]

fsjd, on Apr 09 2012 - 22:37, said:

german line, excluding hetzer, are 3-400m snipers. and the armors sloped pretty well. look at the hetz. 60mm actual armor is more along the lines of 70-80 with that massive slope on it. TDs also have the highest camo rating in-game, aside from scouts.

Al tanks snipe. german accuracy is hardly better than any other. Ferdi, Jagdtiger have flat armor. Jagdtiger, Ferdi have the worst camo of all TDs for their tiers, they are worse than most heavy tanks.

Jagdtiger is more visible than an IS-7.

[teamoldmill]

Run into a M103 or T110 and tell me your gun is superior. Every single machine gun shot of theirs pens, some of yours don't.

[ScoobsTank]

There is no need to play a td anymore. Everything in the game is set up to dispatch them with ease (only familiar with the German line). Their guns are only even to just slightly better then tanks in their own tier. In return for the VERY SLIGHTLY better gun you get alot less hit points and they CLAIM better camo. But if you take one into the practice field you will find you get little to no camo boost. We took a Jagpanther with camo net and binocs, placed it behind a bush on campinovka crew at 100% camo training. A lorain coming down the hill will spot you 1 second after you spot him at about 100 meters. So a tank going 50 kph has the same camo rating as a TD in a bush with a camo net. So much for the theory of shooting them at distance. You are going to get one shot before he is behind or beside you.
Then there is the whole spotting system designed for the talentless arty players. Anybody withing 100 meters of you and you are going to die from the ever watching orbital cannon and some kid wanting to play whac a mole. You might get lucky and he will MISS you. In which case he will only take half your HP and destroy most of your modules.

Either way you go you are shafted. You dont have the speed, HP or armor to fight it out with tanks in your own tier. French tanks put out more damage in 10 seconds then you can take and have the speed and camo to be on you before you can do anything about it. Or you can try and hide only to be taken out by some talentless guy to scared to leave his base playing world of arty in EZMode.

At one point I had the entire German line now I just have 7-9 and only play them about once a week while waiting for my med. to get out of battle. I went up the tree just for the challange and it was fun (except the Jagpanzer) but once the french line came out it was just to stacked against it to bother playing anymore.

[Blackshark2000]

I sincerely agree, and what I think should be done is the following:

-TDs must get more powerful guns to offset their disadvantages

The reason why TDs were used in the first place, was because the removal of the turret allowed for the installation of a more powerful gun.

Here's an example: In WW2, the Soviets initially had the T-34-76 (76mm gun) and the Su-85 (85mm gun). However as the war progressed, T-34 design caught up and was able to mount the 85mm cannon. Obviously, the TD design didn't stand still and the Su-152 became the standard TD at the time T-34-85 was in service.

So I guess my point is, for historical reasons, TDs have to be able to mount more powerful guns.

[Rexxie]

fsjd, on Apr 09 2012 - 22:37, said:

german line, excluding hetzer, are 3-400m snipers. and the armors sloped pretty well. look at the hetz. 60mm actual armor is more along the lines of 70-80 with that massive slope on it. TDs also have the highest camo rating in-game, aside from scouts.

Also, sloped armor on small TDs is pretty pointless. For example, everything has to aim down to shoot a Hetzer; there goes all that slope. Same goes for the Jagdpz, StuG, Jagdpanther, etc. The only time their armor is actually good is when they position themselves higher up, like on a hill.

[Duqe]

Duqe, on Apr 09 2012 - 12:00, said:

Tank destroyers have lowered hull points because otherwise you'd see TD rushes everywhere, just bursting in and blasting everyone to kingdom come with their far superior firing rates (low tier) or superior damage and penetration (high tier).

Instead of Lorraine and AMX 13 90 wolfpacks, you will have JagdPanther and SU-152 wolfpacks.

Thet need to be weaker so they more readily know their place on the battlefield.

Why did I get downvoted for this?

They already have good to great frontal armour values and (except for the T95) higher mobility than most tier 10 heavies, if you give them as much hull points as their opposites, they will just storm forwards and absolutely destroy everything. There will be no more strategy, only tank destroyers.

It is just a *FACT* that they were debuffed in the hull points department because otherwise they would be front line rape-rushers.

This isn't just screaming "OMG DEY BE OP DEN", they used to have much more hull points if I recall, and the tier 9 tank destroyers all got massive nerfing exactly *BECAUSE* they were completely destroying everything with noone pable to even lift a finger.

[Woeman]

With the advent of 7.2, TD view range has turned them into death traps.  Even with binocs and stationary: Hetzer = 327m view range, Stug III = 382m, JagdPz IV = 415m, Jagdpanther = 437m, Ferd = 458m and the mighty Jagdtiger = 491m.  So, this is what happens.  In stationary ambush, see trees fall in the distance, a bit later Sixth sense lightbulb goes on, shells hit the td, and only THEN you see the rapidly closing targets.  You get off one shot, then they are on top of you, your battle is over.  Even the satellite controlled arty moves to another target because you're already dead.
I liked my German TD line before 7.2, now they've become a means of suicide for masochists.  Only the lowly Marder II sees 500m with binocs.

[Purplecrown]

Duqe, on Apr 09 2012 - 23:27, said:

Why did I get downvoted for this?

They already have good to great frontal armour values and (except for the T95) higher mobility than most tier 10 heavies, if you give them as much hull points as their opposites, they will just storm forwards and absolutely destroy everything. There will be no more strategy, only tank destroyers.

It is just a *FACT* that they were debuffed in the hull points department because otherwise they would be front line rape-rushers.

This isn't just screaming "OMG DEY BE OP DEN", they used to have much more hull points if I recall, and the tier 9 tank destroyers all got massive nerfing exactly *BECAUSE* they were completely destroying everything with noone pable to even lift a finger.

Seriously? You are kidding right? With arty and all the fast moving tanks at the enemies disposel, I just can't picture TD's charging with guns blazing. Even if they were in a wolfpack it would be suicide. Arty can and does kill TD's easily and the fast moving tanks that can and would get on their sides. The TD wolfpack is a fantasy that would only happen if the game came down to the wire and at least 3/4 of the enemy are dead. Other than that any TD wolfpack that would charge in the beginning of a game would be senceless.

[teamoldmill]

Duqe, on Apr 09 2012 - 23:27, said:

Why did I get downvoted for this?

They already have good to great frontal armour values and (except for the T95) higher mobility than most tier 10 heavies, if you give them as much hull points as their opposites, they will just storm forwards and absolutely destroy everything. There will be no more strategy, only tank destroyers.

It is just a *FACT* that they were debuffed in the hull points department because otherwise they would be front line rape-rushers.

This isn't just screaming "OMG DEY BE OP DEN", they used to have much more hull points if I recall, and the tier 9 tank destroyers all got massive nerfing exactly *BECAUSE* they were completely destroying everything with noone pable to even lift a finger.

Umm, no. Jagdtiger has the worst armor of the bunch. Any T7 or above, sometimes lower, can pen it anywhere but the casemate and sometimes upper glac. Object can be penned by just about anything but it has a lot of angles and can bounce random shots. T95 is tough, but glacially slow. All are vulnerable to the sides and rear. I assume you are kidding when you say more mobility than heavies, right? And in your theoretical storm scenario, what is keeping all the terrified enemies in FRONT of the TDs? A single 13 90 is more than a match for a T9 TD. Get  beside or behind, they are done.

They were not debuffed because they were too powerful. A Jagdtiger with 2200-2400 hps is just more free experience. Medium tanks have the same or more hps than TDs. I don't see them rushing headlong into an enemy.

I played in beta, never, ever, ever, ever were TDs destroying everything and nobody able to lift a finger. Was not even until release that the Jagdtiger got its armor fixed so it works a little. Mediums still could bum rush a TD.

Higher mobility than heavies. That is amazing someone actually said this.

[teamoldmill]

We need T10 TDs. 900 damage, 310 pen, 4-5 RoF, 300-350 mm frontal armor and 2200 hps. That would make them useful and equal.

[Fazar]

I hated the SU-85, I hate the T-25, but oddly enough I like the Jagdpanzer...

[Belrick]

I agree with OP.

TD < Heavy tanks.


Heres why.

The devs balanced TD back in beta which took into account a massive camo bonus.
Fair enough.

Massive player base whine on invisi tanks. (no one liked it at all.)
Devs massively reduced camo bonuses.
Fair enough because for those not around, you could basically stop moving forward before realizing the cause was an invisi tank youd just hit (exaggeration but not by much, it was that bad)

Devs made ZERO changes to the TD line which depended on those bonuses.
None, zip nada zero.

Made no sense to me then and it still doesnt today.

TD's are cool in that they are unique but are not as good as heavies IMHO.

Main culprit is the severe loss of hitpoints in a game dominated by hit points.

[Drseckzytime]

The 704 and T9's from the US are fine, and they do strike fear in getting whacked even once from their guns.  The problem here once again is Germany with the JT. Historically, for it's time, it's gun was legendary, but in a game with the BL-10 it isn't nearly as much here.  Germany's heaviest hitting gun is on the E-100 right now, and that's not right as it makes the JT kind of useless, as many tankers feel like "ok, I can take a shot or two from the JT then get up on it and finish it off.  Or just beat it down from a distance due to it's massive size's easy to hit weakspots.  

The Stug E-100 is needed sorely at this point, and should have been implemented by now to make Germany competitive here as well, as the JT has been behind the 704 since launch and not properly addressed.  WG will use the same old non-sense they used before with "it's older/outdated compared to the others", like they did with the heavies and mediums, and that it would require another "E-Series" patch to make them competitive.  This is why people were excited for the 2nd German TD line, but then massively let down when they pushed it back what seems to be a year, as it was supposed to launch in Q4 2011.  Once again, they've been behind now since launch, and WG doesn't care as there's no red star on their tanks, it's pretty obvious.  

The Stug e-100 can make a difference here, as outside the Brits, it would feature the largest gun in the game that's non-arty.  They purposely are going with the step-back design to gimp the tank right off the bat of course, forcing the player to take a wider approach angle to get into position around a corner to shoot, exposing more of the tank to be shot up.  It's a fantasy tank, and they can use the Kroc style if they wanted to, and in a similar position would do so for a russian tank I'm sure of it.  If the tank doesn't get the 170 on it, to at least make up for the step back design, then count me out, as I'm done with their, umm, "approach" on the game.

[Otto_matic_Reiffel]

Bad news Drseckzytime. The can't use the Krokodil design as it is copyrighted (since it was made up post-war by modelling companies). Also they have specified they are using a long 150 mm gun, pretty much a long version of the E-100 gun.

Be glad Overlord didn't get his way as he wanted it to have the short 150 from the E-100 for some reason, probably trolling purposes.

[Drseckzytime]

Haha, I'm sure he wanted the short 15cm on it for obvious bias/trolling purposes.  

That's a shame about them only using the 150 long on it, instead of the 170. They better not screw with the long 150.  It better be accurate, and with a significantly better RoF than the E-100, to be competitive.  The tank is already going to be at a disadvantage going with the step-back design, and of course WG's trademark designed German armor.  I have the XP sitting there on the Ferdi waiting for this, had it ready last year when it was originally promised.

EDIT: Would it kill WG to make their own Krok designed Stug E-100?  Probably not.  They're probably doing such for said disadvantages in it's design.

[ParrotOne]

Duqe, on Apr 09 2012 - 23:27, said:

Why did I get downvoted for this?

They already have good to great frontal armour values and (except for the T95) higher mobility than most tier 10 heavies, if you give them as much hull points as their opposites, they will just storm forwards and absolutely destroy everything. There will be no more strategy, only tank destroyers.

It is just a *FACT* that they were debuffed in the hull points department because otherwise they would be front line rape-rushers.

This isn't just screaming "OMG DEY BE OP DEN", they used to have much more hull points if I recall, and the tier 9 tank destroyers all got massive nerfing exactly *BECAUSE* they were completely destroying everything with noone pable to even lift a finger.

You probably got downvoted because it's completely untrue, and after saying TDs should 'know their place', I don't know what you expected to happen.  Good frontal armor values? April fools was 8 days ago. The Ferdi and JT have 100mm weakspots that you can hit from 200 meters. The Jagdpanther, T25, and the entire Russian TD line with the exception of the Object 704 can be penetrated frontally by medium tanks of their own tier, from halfway across the map. The only tank destroyers in the whole game that can resist a frontal attack as well as an equal tier heavy are the T28 and T95. TDs are not remotely close to being overpowered in any sense and they never were. They are the arty-bait benchwarmers of World of Tanks.

[Mow_Mow]

TDs need more hit points and more vision... and heavies need slower turrets.

[Lionshare]

Drseckzytime, on Apr 10 2012 - 02:21, said:

The 704 and T9's from the US are fine, and they do strike fear in getting whacked even once from their guns.  The problem here once again is Germany with the JT. Historically, for it's time, it's gun was legendary, but in a game with the BL-10 it isn't nearly as much here.  Germany's heaviest hitting gun is on the E-100 right now, and that's not right as it makes the JT kind of useless, as many tankers feel like "ok, I can take a shot or two from the JT then get up on it and finish it off.  Or just beat it down from a distance due to it's massive size's easy to hit weakspots.  

The Stug E-100 is needed sorely at this point, and should have been implemented by now to make Germany competitive here as well, as the JT has been behind the 704 since launch and not properly addressed.  WG will use the same old non-sense they used before with "it's older/outdated compared to the others", like they did with the heavies and mediums, and that it would require another "E-Series" patch to make them competitive.  This is why people were excited for the 2nd German TD line, but then massively let down when they pushed it back what seems to be a year, as it was supposed to launch in Q4 2011.  Once again, they've been behind now since launch, and WG doesn't care as there's no red star on their tanks, it's pretty obvious.  

The Stug e-100 can make a difference here, as outside the Brits, it would feature the largest gun in the game that's non-arty.  They purposely are going with the step-back design to gimp the tank right off the bat of course, forcing the player to take a wider approach angle to get into position around a corner to shoot, exposing more of the tank to be shot up.  It's a fantasy tank, and they can use the Kroc style if they wanted to, and in a similar position would do so for a russian tank I'm sure of it.  If the tank doesn't get the 170 on it, to at least make up for the step back design, then count me out, as I'm done with their, umm, "approach" on the game.

The only problem with what you said is Wargammer's history of nerfing, or should I say balancing. The Stug E-100 will be nerfed/balanced to the point where it's just a different looking Jagdtiger. Either Wargammer doesn't care or doesn't understand what to do with tank destroyers.

[Wezo]

Drseckzytime, on Apr 10 2012 - 02:21, said:

The Stug E-100 is needed sorely at this point, and should have been implemented by now to make Germany competitive here as well, as the JT has been behind the 704 since launch and not properly addressed.  WG will use the same old non-sense they used before with "it's older/outdated compared to the others", like they did with the heavies and mediums, and that it would require another "E-Series" patch to make them competitive.  This is why people were excited for the 2nd German TD line, but then massively let down when they pushed it back what seems to be a year, as it was supposed to launch in Q4 2011.  Once again, they've been behind now since launch, and WG doesn't care as there's no red star on their tanks, it's pretty obvious.

Couldnt agree more.

Drseckzytime, on Apr 10 2012 - 02:21, said:

The Stug e-100 can make a difference here, as outside the Brits, it would feature the largest gun in the game that's non-arty.  They purposely are going with the step-back design to gimp the tank right off the bat of course, forcing the player to take a wider approach angle to get into position around a corner to shoot, exposing more of the tank to be shot up.  It's a fantasy tank, and they can use the Kroc style if they wanted to, and in a similar position would do so for a russian tank I'm sure of it.  If the tank doesn't get the 170 on it, to at least make up for the step back design, then count me out, as I'm done with their, umm, "approach" on the game.

I find the reasons the russians using such as "realism" an absolute joke for not making the new tier 9 StuG a frontal casemate TD.

Realism? ... really?

This is a game dominated by mythical tanks from the mother land that have romulan cloaking devices, and cannons that couldnt hit the broad side of a barn sniping tigers and panthers across the map. Regardless, expect the new StuG to have the agility of a beached whale, armor nothing like the E100 even though it will be the same chassis (dont worry, they will throw some holes in there), and a circa. 250 pen tier X cannon with a reload time comparable to artillery.

Heres the reality:

The russians dont want another competitive German tier 9, anything. I'm sure they were kicking themselves after putting in that evil German E-75. They wont let "that" happen again by creating a tier 9 TD with mobility, firepower, and real armor making it "competitive" or better (*gasp*)then the holy Obj 704.

What would happen if they Germans were on the winning end of "Top Tier IX TD" you ask?

Simply what I said before. Yuri, vasily, oleg, and sergei would ride the town donkey in to Minsk and complain to the Devs. The devs would be forced to nerf the tier IX StuG to something akin of a tier IX JgpzIV.

[Momaw]

I'm already on record in other places as saying that TDs are weak as hell once you get out of the lower tiers.  What makes TDs worth playing in tiers 2 through 4)?  They're hard to see, and they have high stopping power. They can lurk in a bush and keep slinging out shot after shot that hurt people well beyond the range they can be spotted in return. The fact that they die horribly in close combat is compensated by the fact that they own long range.

What changes once you go higher?
* One, TDs start losing stealth at the same time enemies get better sight ranges. So you can't really hide.  (This is on top of the basic problems of stealth, which are that it's based on map design and largely mysticism).

* Two, TDs lose stopping power. The guns shoot slower and slower, which means enemies can cover more ground after you have started shooting at them, even if it takes the same number of hits to kill them. When your gun shoots 30 rounds per minute, the enemy will not get very close to you compared to if your gun shoots 8 rounds per minute.

* Three, precision starts to really matter with tanks that have ungodly amounts of armor and require good aiming to penetrate. A TD must engage at long range given their low hitpoints and lack of turret, which means their "better" accuracy is not really an advantage at all.  A tank engaging at 100 meters with accuracy 0.4 has a dispersion of 0.4, while a TD engaging at 400 meters with accuracy 0.35 has a dispersion of 1.4. TDs would need accuracy in the 0.15-0.2 range to have the same kind of chance to aim for weak spots that tanks do.

Which TDs are the ones people actually fear?  The ones that can stay hidden even when you're practically tripping over them, and the ones that can end an opponent in two shots. All TDs should be adjusted to fit one of these profiles.