AP shots that partially penetrate should cause damage according to this formula:
(1/2)*(penetration/(armor+any spall liner bonus))*damage-(armor/sqrt(penetration)), meaning that partially penetrating AP shots would cause some damage.
This mechanic would not apply to non-penetrating AP sabots/gold ammo due to the lower area of impact.
I believe this would lessen complaints of invincible tanks, because now you'll be at least able to damage them and it would also lower player frustration.
Alternative suggestion:
(2*caliber/(3*armor))*(penetration/(armor+any spall liner bonus))*damage-armor, diameter of impact versus armor thickness. Don't know how this will balance.
Remove 0 Damage Hits
Started by
ryacko
, Apr 26 2012 - 01:48
7 replies to this topic
#-18 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 15:01
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No comments? Some examples then.
For example: I fire the 85 mm D5T-85BM at the KV-5's side turret armor, assuming average penetration and damage.
165 damage and 144mm penetration, versus 150 armor.
(1/2)*(144/150)*165-(150/sqrt(144))= ~67 damage.
Another comparison, I fire the QF 6 Pounder Mk IIIA at the same armor plate, assuming average results:
(1/2)*(105/150)*75-(150/sqrt(105))= ~12 damage.
For one last comparison, the 37 mm Automatic SH-37 against the same:
(1/2)*(46/150)*40-(150/SQRT(46))= <0 damage, or no damage.
For example: I fire the 85 mm D5T-85BM at the KV-5's side turret armor, assuming average penetration and damage.
165 damage and 144mm penetration, versus 150 armor.
(1/2)*(144/150)*165-(150/sqrt(144))= ~67 damage.
Another comparison, I fire the QF 6 Pounder Mk IIIA at the same armor plate, assuming average results:
(1/2)*(105/150)*75-(150/sqrt(105))= ~12 damage.
For one last comparison, the 37 mm Automatic SH-37 against the same:
(1/2)*(46/150)*40-(150/SQRT(46))= <0 damage, or no damage.
#-17 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 15:24
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Yea I understand that all the new "there hit,penetration,etc.." are the new crit hit stuff BUT you should always deal a min amount of damage. I'm not shooting snowballs at the other tanks.
#-16 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 15:29
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You're completely turning down the point of using HE there. Can't pen a tank? Deal with it and hit the weakspots. Can't pen the weakspots? Use HE.
I find that every single tank can be penetrated once you got the pen, and if you don't, that's a way arty can be useful, how WG can coax you into skipping the tank with gold or aim better. Your system would actually somewhat ruin those points there.
And the steel wall tanks need to be rewarded by receiving no damage for their awesome angling skills instead of having something somewhat meaningless like damage reduction.
Let me put a T95 vs a BL-10 that can bounce on its front armor with ease.
(1/2)*(287/305)*750-(305/sqrt(287))= ~334 damage
Where's your armor now, T95? Oh yeah, gone cause that one ISU can take out 1.2k HP of your 1.7k in one min without switching ammo types. Seriously, that's just ridiculous.
And why are you putting the spall liner in? It's only to reduce HE damage and ramming damage for steel wall tanks and battering ram tanks. Doesn't affect AP at all and shouldn't.
I find that every single tank can be penetrated once you got the pen, and if you don't, that's a way arty can be useful, how WG can coax you into skipping the tank with gold or aim better. Your system would actually somewhat ruin those points there.
And the steel wall tanks need to be rewarded by receiving no damage for their awesome angling skills instead of having something somewhat meaningless like damage reduction.
Let me put a T95 vs a BL-10 that can bounce on its front armor with ease.
(1/2)*(287/305)*750-(305/sqrt(287))= ~334 damage
Where's your armor now, T95? Oh yeah, gone cause that one ISU can take out 1.2k HP of your 1.7k in one min without switching ammo types. Seriously, that's just ridiculous.
And why are you putting the spall liner in? It's only to reduce HE damage and ramming damage for steel wall tanks and battering ram tanks. Doesn't affect AP at all and shouldn't.
#-15 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 15:41
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Heh, on Apr 26 2012 - 15:29, said:
You're completely turning down the point of using HE there. Can't pen a tank? Deal with it and hit the weakspots. Can't pen the weakspots? Use HE.
I find that every single tank can be penetrated once you got the pen, and if you don't, that's a way arty can be useful, how WG can coax you into skipping the tank with gold or aim better. Your system would actually somewhat ruin those points there.
And the steel wall tanks need to be rewarded by receiving no damage for their awesome angling skills instead of having something somewhat meaningless like damage reduction.
Let me put a T95 vs a BL-10 that can bounce on its front armor with ease.
(1/2)*(287/305)*750-(305/sqrt(287))= ~334 damage
Where's your armor now, T95? Oh yeah, gone cause that one ISU can take out 1.2k HP of your 1.7k in one min without switching ammo types. Seriously, that's just ridiculous.
And why are you putting the spall liner in? It's only to reduce HE damage and ramming damage for steel wall tanks and battering ram tanks. Doesn't affect AP at all and shouldn't.
I find that every single tank can be penetrated once you got the pen, and if you don't, that's a way arty can be useful, how WG can coax you into skipping the tank with gold or aim better. Your system would actually somewhat ruin those points there.
And the steel wall tanks need to be rewarded by receiving no damage for their awesome angling skills instead of having something somewhat meaningless like damage reduction.
Let me put a T95 vs a BL-10 that can bounce on its front armor with ease.
(1/2)*(287/305)*750-(305/sqrt(287))= ~334 damage
Where's your armor now, T95? Oh yeah, gone cause that one ISU can take out 1.2k HP of your 1.7k in one min without switching ammo types. Seriously, that's just ridiculous.
And why are you putting the spall liner in? It's only to reduce HE damage and ramming damage for steel wall tanks and battering ram tanks. Doesn't affect AP at all and shouldn't.
Besides... the armor normalization, penetration multipliers, and chance to bounce would still apply, I'm not talking about removing those.
I'm just saying non-penetrating AP should cause some damage, less damage certainly then HE.
The formula is just a suggestion. It could be changed or refactored, especially since the WoT developers have their own statistics and could balance things themselves.
#-14 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 15:45
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ryacko, on Apr 26 2012 - 15:41, said:
Spalling is the simple result of Newtonian physics. Spalling would result from AP shells and from HE shells.
Besides... the armor normalization, penetration multipliers, and chance to bounce would still apply, I'm not talking about removing those.
I'm just saying non-penetrating AP should cause some damage, less damage certainly then HE.
The formula is just a suggestion. It could be changed or refactored, especially since the WoT developers have their own statistics and could balance things themselves.
Besides... the armor normalization, penetration multipliers, and chance to bounce would still apply, I'm not talking about removing those.
I'm just saying non-penetrating AP should cause some damage, less damage certainly then HE.
The formula is just a suggestion. It could be changed or refactored, especially since the WoT developers have their own statistics and could balance things themselves.
Still do not like how the steel wall tanks will like it. Their armor is ruined by arty as it is having played one in the test server. Poor Maus died from 30% due to 203mm HE shell. :c
#-13 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 16:07
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who would shoot the KV-5's side turret with an 85?? Couldn't you just shoot its tracks/engine block/R2D2/commander bulge rather than something you know you can't pen? The example given is skewed because the shooter is mental 
Without taking count of the physics behind this (which you have correctly displayed), this just seems like laziness. I mean, if you're not bothered to aim at weakspots, why aren't you loading 100% HE?
AP does not do spalling damage for two simple reason: HE is more effective at spalling than AP and HE hurts modules too. And anyways, anything with more than 130mm of penetration can hurt almost any tank in the game, albeit if you care enough to aim.
Without taking count of the physics behind this (which you have correctly displayed), this just seems like laziness. I mean, if you're not bothered to aim at weakspots, why aren't you loading 100% HE?
AP does not do spalling damage for two simple reason: HE is more effective at spalling than AP and HE hurts modules too. And anyways, anything with more than 130mm of penetration can hurt almost any tank in the game, albeit if you care enough to aim.
#-12 Posted Apr 26 2012 - 19:43
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Quote
who would shoot the KV-5's side turret with an 85?? Couldn't you just shoot its tracks/engine block/R2D2/commander bulge rather than something you know you can't pen? The example given is skewed because the shooter is mental
Besides, as we all know, tanks are designed to be hit an infinite number of times by tank guns. Yep. Tanks are totally indestructible. But if you penetrate the tank enough, it'll explode in a fiery explosion.
In any case, for the 85mm vs. the KV-5 example, it would take twenty five shots to destroy the KV-5, as opposed to ten shots if they penetrated the R2D2.
And I'm sure all tank battles within the game occur under 100 meters. So you can always aim for individual hull sections.
