56 replies to this topic

[BobLoblaw]

World of Tanks beta.  Year Two.

[Ezz]

Ruckex, on May 07 2012 - 01:39, said:

Malinovka in particular has some serious flaws in the spotting system

Such as?

Yes, there are bushes that you can hide in.
Yes, there are buildings that have windows.
No, there are no scarecrows to scare away the aliens. <-is this the serious flaw?

[smokntuesdays]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 01:40, said:

They don't stack any more.

Apart from that yes the 13 90 is a wizard on this map. It's the proud owner of what i call the super scout award (15 / 15 spots). Basically did nothing all game. Also wins my award for most 'efficient' credit earner. Same map, cruised up, zero shots fired. 900xp and 25k credits - repair ammo costs... zero.

Thanks, I didn't know they didn't stack.   I'm glad I haven't been stacking them, although I've thought about it at times.  I guess I can thanks the vents, rammers and vert stablizers which has kept me from doing it.

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 01:44, said:

Such as?

Yes, there are bushes that you can hide in.
Yes, there are buildings that have windows.
No, there are no scarecrows to scare away the aliens. <-is this the serious flaw?

Such as an IS-4 creeping 30m away with nothing but a tiny bump that only hides half his hull between you, yet staying invisible until he unleashes a 400 dmg shell into your face.  That map is the primary violator of the "everyone within 50m is spotted" rule.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 02:04.

[rinying]

GeorgePatton, on May 07 2012 - 00:19, said:

Actually, I have been on the team that got the enemy team spotted... we had no forward scouts.


Cheers!
Glenn

someone had a binoes coated optics combo, im sure of it. i do it all the time in my 90, and also i did it in my t32, worked wonders

[Rathmik]

It's not a bug.

It's a Patton with full crew and binoculars and probaly recon and situational awareness and maybe even consumables.

All this = see clear across the field and spot the enemy tanks.  This was possible before 7.2 it would work even better now

[KiwiMark67]

whitworth, on May 06 2012 - 23:28, said:

We've all seen it. The battle starts in Malinovka and 1 side can see all the other sides tanks at the start.

Sorry, that was me.
I do it with scouts and also with 400+ metres of view range + binocs + vents + 100% commander = over 500m view range.
My scouts also have binocs & vents & 100% commander so they don't even have to move out into the field.
My AMX 13 90 will often start out just moving to where it has a view of the field and suddenly all the enemy in their base light up, I'm still loading my clip but my team-mates start shooting & killing.

I'm not too sure how you can call it a bug though.  Remove the word bug and it seems that you want them to fix the Malinovka spotting at start?

[Ezz]

Ruckex, on May 07 2012 - 02:03, said:

Such as an IS-4 creeping 30m away with nothing but a tiny bump that only hides half his hull between you, yet staying invisible until he unleashes a 400 dmg shell into your face.  That map is the primary violator of the "everyone within 50m is spotted" rule.

I don't doubt that this is what you observed, but i've never seen it happen, nor have a seen a replay where it happens. Undulations catch a lot of people out given most sit in 3rd person mode until contact is made. It's true that it can be very jarring when tanks 'appear', but this is less a bug, more a consequence of the mechanic. Just like the way you can see a tree fall over but not what knocked it over. They aren't ideal, but given the vision mechanics as a whole, you can begin to understand the limitations of the system as it is implemented.

(oh and the S70 averages 490 damage )

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 03:03, said:

I don't doubt that this is what you observed, but i've never seen it happen, nor have a seen a replay where it happens. Undulations catch a lot of people out given most sit in 3rd person mode until contact is made. It's true that it can be very jarring when tanks 'appear', but this is less a bug, more a consequence of the mechanic. Just like the way you can see a tree fall over but not what knocked it over. They aren't ideal, but given the vision mechanics as a whole, you can begin to understand the limitations of the system as it is implemented.

(oh and the S70 averages 490 damage )

I've seen similar things enough on this map to know it's not simply mechanics working as intended.  I play a lot of different scouts and have a solid grasp on spotting and how it should work given the rules WG has built into the game.  A tank less than 50m away should never be invisible, especially not when you can literally see pieces of his tank hanging out the second after his shot is fired.  I can try to scan some replays, but I doubt I have any that show what I'm referring too since I clean that folder out every day or two.  Too many people see things like this for it to be a fluke and too many of us are highly skilled players that you can't simply explain it away as bad players that don't understand the game.

The spotting system, bugged or working as intended, needs a complete overhaul.  It is one of the worst aspects of the game and constantly defies common sense, both to those who understand the mechanics and those that don't.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 03:35.

[Ezz]

Ruckex, on May 07 2012 - 03:28, said:

Too many people see things like this for it to be a fluke and too many of us are highly skilled players that you can't simply explain it away as bad players that don't understand the game.

As i stated earlier, you'd be surprised how many people do not understand the spotting mechanic. Take the forums as an example. Forum goers are generally regarded as being better versed in the game's mechanics than non forum goers. I'd estimate that at least 25% of forum goers don't have a solid grasp of this mechanic. My guess is that probably increases to close to 50% in general pop. That's a lot of players. I could be overstating this, but it certainly feels that way sometimes.

And as to the replay, i'd be very interested to see it happen for once with my own eyes. For all the reports i'm yet to see a replay of it happen.

The only scenario where the mechanic has potential to have tanks invisible under 50m is when high closure rates and low visibility are involved (eg scout barreling thru woods). The spotting frequency will allow for a fair amount of distance to be covered at 60+km/h. (but 30m and an IS4 sounds very unlikely)

[Zardnaar]

Spotting mechanics is generally one way to weed out the dumb pubbies from players who have a clue.

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 03:37, said:

As i stated earlier, you'd be surprised how many people do not understand the spotting mechanic. Take the forums as an example. Forum goers are generally regarded as being better versed in the game's mechanics than non forum goers. I'd estimate that at least 25% of forum goers don't have a solid grasp of this mechanic. My guess is that probably increases to close to 50% in general pop. That's a lot of players. I could be overstating this, but it certainly feels that way sometimes.

And as to the replay, i'd be very interested to see it happen for once with my own eyes. For all the reports i'm yet to see a replay of it happen.

The only scenario where the mechanic has potential to have tanks invisible under 50m is when high closure rates and low visibility are involved (eg scout barreling thru woods). The spotting frequency will allow for a fair amount of distance to be covered at 60+km/h. (but 30m and an IS4 sounds very unlikely)

You can honestly say you've never seen a tank under 50m go invisible even at low speeds or not moving?  It happens so frequently that I'm nearly convinced that the 50m rule isn't true any more.  Take a good city brawl for example.  You're peekabooming with another tank around the corner of the same building and yet you'll both go invisible during reload.  Its not until after you take damage that the guy appears mere meters away from you.  Part of it is latency due to server side calcs, but according to the game engine rules, he should never be invisible in the first place within that range.

Simply put, it's not a misunderstanding on my part.  I understand all too well how it *should* work and that is why the flaky system is so infuriating.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 04:12.

[Ezz]

Ruckex, on May 07 2012 - 04:05, said:

You can honestly say you've never seen a tank under 50m go invisible even at low speeds or not moving?

So far i honestly haven't noticed. And the frequency that you are describing makes me think that maybe something more is at play than just the mechanics. People have mentioned that at times graphics subsystems or connectivity issues can have similar impacts. I can't really comment because i have not seen it to know what people are talking about - but do you have an oldish system, and or fluctuating ping?

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 05:02, said:

So far i honestly haven't noticed. And the frequency that you are describing makes me think that maybe something more is at play than just the mechanics. People have mentioned that at times graphics subsystems or connectivity issues can have similar impacts. I can't really comment because i have not seen it to know what people are talking about - but do you have an oldish system, and or fluctuating ping?

Nah, I have a pretty fast computer and great ping.  I'm just very into competitive shooters and easily notice when things are amiss.  Having spent a good many years playing at high levels thorugh a lot of games, I'm quick to pick up on poor mechanics that influence the game.  I'm honestly having a hard time believing you've never seen what I describe in a city map.  Perhaps it's one of those things that once you pick up on, you can't help but notice it more.  Start watching for it in any given city map.  I absolutely guarantee you'll notice it within a single day of playing if you look for it.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 05:12.

[Ezz]

Ruckex, on May 07 2012 - 05:11, said:

I'm honestly having a hard time believing you've never seen what I describe in a city map.

Ruckex said:

You're peekabooming with another tank around the corner of the same building and yet you'll both go invisible during reload.

That's the bit i don't get. I honestly haven't seen it happen, nor have i seen a replay where it's happened. Does this happen to many others? Does anyone else have a replay of it happening?

And i'm not doubting your claim or knowledge of the mechanic, just saying that my experiences clearly differ from yours on this.

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 05:18, said:

That's the bit i don't get. I honestly haven't seen it happen, nor have i seen a replay where it's happened. Does this happen to many others? Does anyone else have a replay of it happening?

And i'm not doubting your claim or knowledge of the mechanic, just saying that my experiences clearly differ from yours on this.

Like most mechanics in this game, chalk it up to poor implementation.  Much like matchmaker and the horrendous zero damage crit system, these mechanics are an affront to anyone who has spent any time playing competitive shooters.  They simply defy all logic and that is what drives me insane.  I can't abide by illogical, inconsistent rules.  I'm pretty close to taking a break from this game and 100% of the reason is the flaky spotting, the terrible matchmaking, and the zero damage crits.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 05:24.

[Jevlin001]

Just delete Campinovka and be done with it.

[The_Chieftain]

I got a kill in about 40 seconds on that map in my GWP by firing a blind shot at the railway embankment. Nailed a T20. I explained that at about that moment in time there is always someone crossing the tracks. He took it well enough. Not a hack, no odd spotting, just playing the odds.

[Ezz]

The_Chieftain, on May 07 2012 - 05:29, said:

a blind shot at the railway embankment. Nailed a T20

Diff map... but nice shot anyway.

And Ruckex, realistically once people have the view that things are broken, it's pretty hard to change their mind. I'll only suggest that you find ways to work with those mechanics, rather than them working against you.

[Ruckex]

Ezz, on May 07 2012 - 05:33, said:

Diff map... but nice shot anyway.

And Ruckex, realistically once people have the view that things are broken, it's pretty hard to change their mind. I'll only suggest that you find ways to work with those mechanics, rather than them working against you.

Perhaps broken isn't the right word.  I just try to imagine mechanics this foolish in a game like Battlefield 2 or Counterstrike.  My brain literally shorts out trying to find ways to fit such silly gameplay mechanics into those games.  Can you imagine shooting a guy in the knee in BF2 and having him continue to run at full speed without taking any damage or putting a TOW missile into the side of a tank and having no discernable damage taken off?  What about looking down your scope and seeing bullet tracers coming from an invisible infantryman that you know is there and are staring directly at through advanced optics?  I, for one, can't.  Nor can I imagine any competitive league allowing such shenanigans in ladder or tournament play.  I guess it's just a matter of comparison of where I've been and what I'm used to in my games.  I take this game a little more seriously than I should and expect the same level of consistency out of this game as I did in high level ladder play.

For all it's faults, this game is amazing.  After pages of complaints, I should state that clearly.  I wouldn't play nearly 6,000 rounds in a game I hate.  What I hate is that with a few simple fixes to some very poorly thought out mechanics, it could be that much more enjoyable.

Edited by Ruckex, May 07 2012 - 05:54.