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E75 vs IS8


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Spider1g #41 Posted May 11 2012 - 19:52

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I did say in another post I give up the E-75 is a glorious tank and I am just incapable of driving it properly. ( LOL)  noted and accepted. I did find a quote that sums up what I think about it.


Moriarity: Now look, Oddball. The trade for the uniforms I can understand. But to buy this tank, you got to be crazy!

Oddball: It's a mother beautiful tank!

Moriarity:  It's a piece of junk. The fuel system leaks all over the place! It's a piece of junk!


Oddball: Always with the negative waves, Moriarty. Always with the negative waves!

Moriority : Crap!

zephoid #42 Posted May 11 2012 - 20:12

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spider, really, play the russian line. I dare you. You think bouncing is bad for you, wait till that IS seem to think is amazing. IS3 ammo rack is damaged pretty much every 2nd or 3rd game you play (with wet ammo rack). You think you are the only one catching fire either? German tank's engines are just as likely as russian to catch fire. Hell, americans NEVER get a 15% fire chance engine on their heavies. Sure, some german tanks  have a front mounted engine as designed, so yeah, it gets hit more often. Stop being fatalistic and saying your line is so bad when you have very little experience actually playing ANY of non-german tanks you are commenting on.

You complain about needing 54k exp for your top gun..... yeah, and? No one else gets their top gun to start. Hell the T95 needs 25k to get  off a 105mm gun (Americans have no torsion bars upgrade) then grind another 60k for the top gun. The IS3 gets 175 pen at teir 8 until it can grind all the way up to the bl9. 175 pen..... you have it easy on the tiger 2 with 200 pen.

I dont think you understand what mirrored means. The Americans dont have a Maus. Likewise the Russians dont have a E100. The tanks are quite different in what they are capable of and what they should be expected to do. They are DIFFERENT, not mirrored. However, they are balanced so the differences are aproximately equivalent in terms of gameplay. That means the trees are NOT mirrored


Yes, the E75 is fantasy. WHO CARES that makes your argument no more valid than the one WG has. EVERY TANK has a bad gun when stock. DEAL WITH IT. German tree isnt alone in this in any way. WG has to make a difinitive tank for this game, even if they dont know exactly what could have been. So they use LOGIC to decide what to give the tank, something you cant seem to comprehend. The logic that the E75 could have used the guns on the Tiger 2 as testing is not only reasonable but probably correct. The low velocity 128 you suggest makes no sense as it was contrary to the gun design philosophy of almost every large german tank (high velocity, small caliber). The only reason the 128 was deisgned was that you couldnt get 88 or 105mm going faster without having the shell shatter in impact, so experimentation in higher caliber weapons was persued. However, they still attempted to maintain the same german philosophy of high velocity projectiles (see accuracy on JT).

50B isnt terrible, though it did not deserver its nerfs. I dont think we have gone into a CW in a month without at least wanting to take 2 however (we have a shortage of 50Bs).  It is underplayed as the grind to it is terrible and it doesnt have much over the 50-120. I see a lot of 50-120s and i bet most of them have the 50b and just dont play it in pubs. As i said, E100s get a LOT of use in CW. In pubs, yeah, its not very good, but the tank was designed as a gold slinger from its first release. Just looking at it on paper should have told you that.  To make it clear how unimpressive the IS4 is, we wont run them in IR for CW. 200 HP buff for a gun, mobility, and armor nerf is not worth it at all. Sure its 'all right', but it doesnt provide anything that other tanks dont do better.   I would agree with your acessment of the IS8, though i always thought the E75 was better than the T9 IS4. ST1 is a slight downgrade from the IS4.

Edit: Quoting a comedy movie? Sure, you may agree with the idea, but it just makes your argument seem that much more silly.

Edited by zephoid, May 11 2012 - 20:14.


Spider1g #43 Posted May 11 2012 - 21:19

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Hey I made a joke about it  RELAX and I admitted I cant drive the dang thing what more you want????  I stopped lol .. besides I have an American T-20 that works just fine and suits my happy go lucky play style better . I dont mind being crushed like a beer can in it,  as at least it does do some damage and I get less announcements that say " bounced" its just an opinion.. I think my chief complaint is I worked my ass off to get the E-75 .. getting the crap kicked outta me by T-29's and the T-34's thinking finally I got a cool Tier IX and its seriously been kind of a let down maybe it gets better lol.

Mow_Mow #44 Posted May 11 2012 - 21:57

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I actually have a suspicion that the upper plates on the IS-8 are actually 80mm thick and not 120mm as described on the description. The lower plate is likely 120mm at a shallow angle for about ~130-150mm frontal armor.

Take a look at IS-8's armor figures:

<armor>
<armor_1> 120 </armor_1>
<armor_2> 60 </armor_2>
<armor_3> 80 </armor_3>
<armor_4> 60 </armor_4>
<armor_5> 80 </armor_5>
<armor_6> 16 </armor_6>
<armor_7> 30 </armor_7>
<armor_8> 0 </armor_8>
<armor_9> 30 <noDamage> true </noDamage></armor_9>
<armor_10> 90 </armor_10>
<armor_11> 50 </armor_11>
</armor>
<primaryArmor>armor_1 armor_3 armor_4</primaryArmor>

We also know from WoT Armory testing that the upper plates are effective ~180mm. The IS-3 with 110mm thick plates in the same area, with less slope is effective more than 200mm. Therefore it is highly likely that the upper plates of IS-8 are less than 120mm thick, as if they were 120mm thick, the effectiveness of that plate frontally would be between IS-3 (110mm) and IS-7 (150mm). But as it stands, it is less effective than either. It could also be armor group 9, 90mm. Or perhaps, the factor of slope is more than I expect and that the lower plate is actually the 90mm armor group 10. But I don't know where the 120mm for armor group 1 goes. It may possibly be the seam armor.

EDIT: 120mm armor group 1 could be the shoulder pads on the extreme left and right of the front of IS-8, they seem to be at a lesser angle but are still highly effective in terms of effective armor strength.

Edited by Mow_Mow, May 11 2012 - 21:59.


MalikCarr #45 Posted May 12 2012 - 11:35

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...oh bollocks to that. Mow_Mow if what you're saying is true I'm going to break something.

IS-8/IS-10/T-10 were all derivatives of the IS-3 - the frontal armor essentially mirrors that tank's layout, e.g. it's highly reliant on sloping to provide good protection.

EDIT: Wait, unless my math is wrong, that means T-54's frontal hull likely has better protection than IS-8's. And that's patently ridiculous.

I seriously hope you're wrong, but so far your math has usually added up.

Goddammit, WG, get your shit together.

EDIT EDIT: Went ahead and tore through Chobitok's site - this is what IS-8/IS-10/T-10 should have for armor values:

Hull front: 120mm @ 57deg (main upper surfaces); 60mm @ 78deg (uppermost surfaces around the driver's hatch); 120mm @ 47deg (shoulders); 120mm @ 50deg (lower surfaces)
Hull sides: 80mm @ 62deg (upper surfaces); 80mm @ 10deg (lower surfaces behind tracks);  16mm@ 0deg (hull floor)
Hull rear: 50mm @ 60deg (uniform)

That... isn't really adding up to your specs that you hacked from the client, is it.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:

Some pictures for edification. IS-8's hull armor is basically a shrunken version of IS-7's but without the falseboard on the sides (there's no room due to the lower overall height of the hull).

http://www.popmech.r..._1243421683.jpg

http://www.popmech.r..._1243421736.jpg

Edited by MalikCarr, May 12 2012 - 12:15.


Mow_Mow #46 Posted May 12 2012 - 12:53

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I'm using this as my "effective armor" source.

http://wotarmory.wor...tection-report/

More particularly, this image:
http://wotarmory.fil...mor-scheme2.jpg

As far as I know WoT Armory is a quite reliable source. The lower glacis on the IS-8 is utterly ridiculous.

Here again, is side armor test from the same source:

http://wotarmory.fil...rmro-scheme.jpg

Oddball31 #47 Posted May 12 2012 - 18:23

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But those are 5 or 7 in a row shots immune values. 200mm effective armor would mean, that 50% of shots by a 200avg pen gun will penetrate at short range, head on. Ours are always protection data, conservative by purpose.

UFP is 180, because the 90mm T15E2M2 was the last gun the immunity criteria was achieved with. It can have 200mm "effective", converted vertical armor ingame. No gun between 180 and 198 for testting.

Mow_Mow #48 Posted May 12 2012 - 20:12

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At the same time, I can almost guarantee that IS-3 is immune to 200 penetration guns on that same area plate. It shouldn't be the case, though, that IS-8's frontal plates being weaker than IS-3's. IS-3's pike is less sloped vertically and supposedly is thinner by 10mm. I also highly doubt that IS-8's lower glacis is stronger than IS-3's, as I don't recall ever fearing Sluggers or M6's in my IS-3 (160mm penetration 90mm M3)

EDIT: I'm not saying its fact, but its just a suspicion after looking at IS-8's armor values.

Edited by Mow_Mow, May 12 2012 - 20:22.


MalikCarr #49 Posted May 12 2012 - 20:36

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View PostMow_Mow, on May 12 2012 - 20:12, said:

At the same time, I can almost guarantee that IS-3 is immune to 200 penetration guns on that same area plate. It shouldn't be the case, though, that IS-8's frontal plates being weaker than IS-3's. IS-3's pike is less sloped vertically and supposedly is thinner by 10mm. I also highly doubt that IS-8's lower glacis is stronger than IS-3's, as I don't recall ever fearing Sluggers or M6's in my IS-3 (160mm penetration 90mm M3)

EDIT: I'm not saying its fact, but its just a suspicion after looking at IS-8's armor values.

So far your theories have added up fairly well, which is why I basically started chewing on a skull as I went over your numbers.

So help me God if WG made IS-8's armor somehow worse than IS-3's for some asinine thing like "balance" I'm going to light someone on fire. 80mm frontal armor, gimme a break...

HoIo #50 Posted May 13 2012 - 01:37

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View Poststcrazy, on May 09 2012 - 01:27, said:

I used to be able to angle the E75 to bounce is4 shots  but cant do that against the new is8 .
anyone else got the same prob?

I am not gonna say anything since I bounce the IS-8 (prolly not the 122, but it was a gun lol)

I'm not much of a angler in my E-75, unless it's a city map, or I can hide behind rocks

IS-8 is a POS in terms of armor, or at least hull armor, so it's a relatively easy target to annihilate (and I have only 105, btw, how's 128?)


So I'll just laugh and smile this away :Smile_harp:

Schrollski #51 Posted May 13 2012 - 06:12

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View PostTeru, on May 13 2012 - 01:37, said:

I am not gonna say anything since I bounce the IS-8 (prolly not the 122, but it was a gun lol)

I'm not much of a angler in my E-75, unless it's a city map, or I can hide behind rocks

IS-8 is a POS in terms of armor, or at least hull armor, so it's a relatively easy target to annihilate (and I have only 105, btw, how's 128?)


So I'll just laugh and smile this away :Smile_harp:

128 is f*cking epic.

Gochtune #52 Posted May 16 2012 - 05:39

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View PostSchrollski, on May 13 2012 - 06:12, said:

128 is f*cking epic.
Epic and moody. Sometimes it hits target all day, sometimes it misses all day. Go figure.
Ferdinand doesn't have that kind of problem, so does E-100. Only in E-75.

Gyarados #53 Posted May 16 2012 - 06:47

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I've had no problems hitting things with the 128 to be honest. It's perfectly accurate enough. It does have some dispersion that kicks in around 300 meters, but it's not awful. You just have to account for it a little bit.

Icarus #54 Posted May 16 2012 - 15:23

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128 is very very unreliable, sometimes it hits, most times it spam shots all around the reticule or outside, even fully closed. About the pen no comments, just add that if u like to bounce shooting tiger, is, kvs, 7590, this is the gun for you. Being mostly playing 75 in 7.3, elited it, did play like 100+ battles with it, and I tell you, I felt a lot more confortable to play my stock IS8 and 103 than my 75. Armor wont bounce anything. Big lower hull, uper hull pens, turret pens??? No not cuppula, that is another joke get close to anything and there is your cuppula... Forget about spotting anything after a close brawl. Basically, this tank is simply not "reliable", that is the word. But the gun is bad, very bad. 80% accuracy with it the way I play this tank, is just ridiculous, wish there was a way to see bounces or low track hits, 0 dmg hits. Then we would be able to see the real thing with this gun... I would say dmg shots would be near 50%. used to play kv a lot, and I sure can tell I would thrust to hit the target with the 152 way more than this unreliable 128! it surely feels like a realy bad derp gun. That is actual how I use this gun, a derp cannon, that is why I tell u 80% accuracy is BAD. btw I shoot on the move with my other STOCK tier 9s, take a look at the accuracy...

Bagheera #55 Posted May 17 2012 - 06:45

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I don't own an IS-8, but in my experience fighting against them, they are a LOT easier to defeat than E-75.  E-75's frontal armor is still, IMO, one of the best for its tier.

Gyarados #56 Posted May 17 2012 - 10:37

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The IS-8's frontal armor is a joke to be honest. It's god great mobility, however, and that's it's strength. Similar to the French heavies and mediums. No armor, but dat gun/mobility.

TlGERACE #57 Posted May 17 2012 - 10:53

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Fellow Tankers

In my opinion the IS8 cant go vs an E75 period ! but it can go vs King Tiger

Two things needed for a good face off duel ( Frontal armor + Good gun penetration ) and the IS8 Tier 9 is not even close to face a real  tier 9 armor , forget about the speed cuz when your face off there is no way for anyone to be your friend but two things ( Front armor + Gun )

Best regards

Tiger Ace

redhairdave #58 Posted May 17 2012 - 14:20

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i have gone against many e-75's in my is8. its often an ambush hit and run. but even head on, i can win. the is8 wont bounce if your even decent at aiming. the turret face is a weak spot to that gun.

also, why cant you circle the e-75? how can speed not be relevant? also what about pulling the e-75 into a trap?

all tanks need 3 things, all 3 are equal. speed armour and firepower. the is8 has 2 in spades and one is poor to alright.

the only advantage the e-75 has is armour, can can be negated by gold in this game. also by the massive pen of the is8 gun.

Darasta #59 Posted May 17 2012 - 14:44

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View Postredhairdave, on May 17 2012 - 14:20, said:


also, why cant you circle the e-75? how can speed not be relevant? also what about pulling the e-75 into a trap?



i love to see a IS-8 try to circle my E-75

redhairdave #60 Posted May 17 2012 - 17:58

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i have done it to other e-75's dont see why your special. tracked it on the way in and drove behind it, seeing how i was doing almost 50 it was easy.




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