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I would like to request a rework of the German guns. More specificly, I would like to request:

1)  the guns be buffed to their historical numbers
2) tier re-adjusted based on new preformance
3) a few new guns be added
4) ammunition changed for the 150mm


Consider, all evidence suggest that the data for German weapons was converted incorrectly. Numerous tests and comparisons of weapons show that the numbers are wrong, regardless of whether or not the conversion is where the error originated.


In real life, the German KwK 40 had similar preformance to the US 76mm. This view is based on US comparisons of the two weapons, British comparisons, German comparisons, testing data, and is supported by the two guns delivering almost identicle kenetic energy and both using the same type of ammunition.

Both had about 14% better preformance when compared to the 85mm, all using standard ammunition. However, while the 76mm is moderately superior, the KwK 40 only has 88% of the preformance of the 85mm, and 83% of the preformance of US 76mm using in-game numbers. When you stop and think about that, its almost a complete reversal of the real life situation: the 85mm is preforming almost exactly 14% better than the KwK 40.

The 50mm L'60 in real life provided a HUGE boost in preformance over the 50mm L'42. It had both a significantly larger propellant charge, AND a significantly lengthed barrel, which resulted in greatly increased muzzle velocity.

Here is a comparison of German ammunition:
http://i1186.photobu...tankgervsuk.jpg
From left to right, the ammunition was used by: 37mm KwK/Pak 36, 50mm KwK 38 L'42 , 50mm KwK/Pak 38 L'60, 75mm KwK 39 L'24, 75mm KwK 40 L'43/L'48, 75mm KwK 42 L'70, 88mm FlaK/KwK 36 L'56, KwK/Pak 43 L'71.

Where as the L'42 was essentially incapable of penetrating the frontal armor of T-34's, the L'60 was able to do it out to about 200-300 yds in real life. However, in-game, the preformance is only increased by a mere 7mm. This is clearly not a large enough increase to go from being incapable of penetrating the armor, to penetrating it at a 200-300m range.


Finally, the 75mm KwK 42 L'70 was of comparable preformance to the British QF 3" (76.2mm) 17lber. The British 6lber is correctly represented in the game, which would indicate that the 17lber will also be correctly represented; in other words, having around 170mm of penetration.



Given these facts, its clear that German weapons are mis-represented in game. Although the conversion to Russian standards looks to be the likliest source of error, we can't be sure that this is where the error originated. In either case, it would be both highly beneficial, and realistic to rework the German weapons.

I agree. The German guns need a boost, especially with the new Ami and Russki heavies out. German tanks, especially the late-tier heavies, were known for their heavy armor. This has been negated by the new tanks.

88 L/56 would penetrate ~150mm @90 degrees @ 100 meters, but the devs put it at 132 because that's what it pens on a 30 degree slope. So that's a historical fallacy in the game as well.

Now, here is what I would recomend we do:

Historical guns
37mm KwK 36: 45mm penetration
20mm's: between 20 and ~56mm of penetration depending on model and ammunition used (including APCR)
50mm L'48: 65mm penetration
50mm L'60: 82mm penetration
75mm L'24: 54mm penetration
75mm L'43: 124mm penetration
75mm L'48: 136mm penetration
105mm L'28: 74mm penetration
88mm L'56: 156mm penetration
75mm L'70: 172mm penetration
128mm L'55: 257mm penetration for gameplay purposes (increased from historical value
128mm L'61: unchanged, gameplay purposes

fictional/no-data/prototype
50mm L'80: 94mm penetration (95 damage, APCBC-HE shell)
88m L'71 (Krupp version): 203mm
105mm L'52: 200mm penetration
105mm L'68: 225mm penetration


Weapons added/removed
Add the: 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall/historical version) 248-253mm penetration (varies with source)
Remove the 75mm L'100


For tier 3+ tanks, I would advise:

Panzer III Ausf. A: 37mm, 50mm L'42

Pz38: unchanged

Marder II: 50mm L'60, 50mm L'90, 75mm L'43

Luchs: 20mm, 37mm, 50mm L'42, 50mm L'60

Panzer III Ausf. L: 37mm, 50mm L'42, 50mm L'60, 75mm L'24, 50mm L'80 (force the driver to pick between the L'80 and the last engine)

Pz38 nA: unchanged

Leo: add the 75mm L'24.

Hetzer: 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 105mm L'28

Panzer III/IV: 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43

Panzer IV: 75mm L'24, 50mm L'60, 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48(Remove Vader turret, replace with up-armored "Ausf. K" turret with 70mm of armor, vs the current 50mm). 105mm L'28.

VK 2801: 50mm L'60, 75mm L'24, 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 105mm L'28

StuG III: 75mm L'24, 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 105mm L'28

VK3001(H) : 50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 105mm L'28

VK3001(P):50mm L'80, 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 105mm L'28

VK3601(H) (changed to a Heavy Tank. Keep top engine, as Tiger I is unplayable without it): 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 105mm L'28

Jagdpanzer IV: 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 105mm L'28

VK3002(DB): 75mm L'43, 75mm L'48, 105mm L'28

Panther: 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 105mm L'28. Buff manuverability to compensate for reduced firepower

Tiger I: 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 88mm L'71 (Krupp) 105mm L'52

Tiger P: 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 88mm L71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52

Jagdpanther: 75mm L'48, 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52

Panther II: 88mm L'56, 75mm L'70, 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52

Tiger II: 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52, 105mm L'68, 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall)

VK4502 Ausf. A: 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52, 105mm L'68

Ferdinand: 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52, 105mm L'68, 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall), 128mm L'55

E-50: 75mm L'70, 88mm L'71 (Krupp) 105mm L'52, 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall), 105mm L'52 Ausf. B

E-75: 88mm L'71 (Krupp), 105mm L'52, 105mm L'68, 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall), 128mm L'55

VK4502 Ausf. B: 105mm L'52, 105mm L'68, 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall), 128mm L'55

Jagdtiger: 88mm L'71 (Rheinmetall), 128mm L'55, 128mm L'61

E-100: 128mm L'55, 150mm, add Mausturm (Maus turret) as stock turret, E-100 turret given pre-researched, required to use the 150mm.

Maus: 128mm L'55



Additionally, I would like to recomend that we change the premium ammunition used on the German tier 10 150mm KwK 45 L'38 from HEAT rounds and replace them with APCR rounds.


Why? Because even if penetration is reduced over the HEAT round (say its knocked back to 324mm average using APCR), you get the added benefits of the shell normalization.

With shell normalization taken into account for APCR rounds (HEAT rounds do not, and cannot, normalize), the 150mm is actually one of, if not THE, weakest tier 10 guns for penetration. The US and Russian HEAT rounds have penetrations of around 360-400mm.

The French 100mm has APCR rounds penetrating ~360mm average, which also gets benefits from shell normalization. The 130mm S-70 also has benefits of shell normalization, as does the 128mm.


Don't worry, the 150mm won't be OP if we give it APCR. APCR rounds lose penetration quickly at range due to poor balistics. HEAT rounds lose no penetration with range, as they penetrate through chemical means.

This means that the APCR rounds will be less effective than HEAT rounds at range, but more effective up close. It evens out
Edited by DerJager, May 09 2012 - 02:08.

DerJager, on May 09 2012 - 01:48, said:

Someone give this guy a medal.

sorry, extra post
Edited by DerJager, May 09 2012 - 02:08.

i really get sick of my german tanks getting chewed through like paper and not being able to do the same unless you aim carefully

What are your plans for the 2nd german TD line(Nashorn, Dickermax, Stuer Emil, ect.). This post is better than that last one by a lot.
Give the Vk 3002 db the L/70 though.

Not gonna happen.

This is NOT a historically accurate game, so, no.

  Been discussed to death already.

DerJager, on May 09 2012 - 01:48, said:

and 17 cm for e 100

Hi

I agree with your post. We know the Panther 75mm/L70 would slice through a Shermans and T-34 armor like butter out to a 1000m and even up to 2000m In this game the gun can barely pen the frontal armor of a Sherman at 300m which I think is a sort of sick and stupid joke because it seems all other tank nations are getting very close to there real performance values.

I dont know where the post is but apparently the numbers used by WOT are Russian numbers. It has something to do with what percentage of the projectile went into the tank. I believe the numbers used for Russian guns is 75% of the projectile had to be in the enemy tank (might of been higher) while WOT probably misinterpreted German performance tests as stating they only needed 50% of the projectile in the enemy tank (and this is why German guns bounce so much). In fact the number was significantly higher and much closer if not equal to the Russian standards for projectile performance.

rene
Edited by Orinana, May 09 2012 - 02:54.

Priory_of_Sion, on May 09 2012 - 02:12, said:

Dickermax (Tier 5): high amount of HP, say 440, and the 88mm L'56 as its gun.

Nashorn (tier 6): High ammount of HP, around 700, and give it the 88mm L'71 (Krup version) and the 105mm L'52. Maybe the L'68 if it needs it.

Sturer Emil: High amount of HP, about 930, and give it the 128mm for its upgraded gun.




VK would be OP if it had the L'70. Its already faster and more manuverable than the Panther, its armor just FEELS more effective, and you want to give it comparable guns?
Edited by DerJager, May 09 2012 - 02:49.

DerJager, on May 09 2012 - 02:48, said:

The Dickermax needs the historical 105mm as well.  L/52  


The Vk 3002 DB prototype was to use the 75mm L/70 gun. IRL that is it's only real gun.-On November 25th of 1941, Adolf Hitler ordered Wa Pruef start work on the new tank. In December of 1941, Wa Pruef ordered Daimler-Benz and MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg Nuernberg) to design new 30-ton tank armed with the 75mm KwK L/70 gun as a response to the Soviet T-34/76 tank.

The Panther can keep the 75mm L/100 and give it 215 pen so the Panther can have a gun advantage(Panther II and E-50 can mount the 75mm L/100 as well).
-Adolf Hitler himself insisted on using 75mm KwK 42 L/100 gun, but since it was not ready for production, shorter 75mm KwK 42 L/70 gun, which was capable of penetrating almost 150mm thick armor at the range of 1000 meters was used.

Priory_of_Sion, on May 09 2012 - 04:05, said:

I really don't see why you feel that a prototype vehicle that never entred production, was never used, and never fired its weapon in anger needs to have its 'historical' weapon.

I mean apparently, we don't even have the REAL 88mm L'71, we have some BS prototype weapon submitted by Krupp, that had significantly inferior preformance, and lost the design contract to the Rhinemetall designed 88mm L'71 that was the one actually used on the Jagdpanther, Nashorn, and Tiger II.


Regardless of that fact, if we give the panther a gun that penetrates 215mm of armor, we'll have to make it even slower and unmanuverable than it is now. Infact, by that point, we might as well make it a Heavy Tank, since thats how it will preform.



Just let the VK DB go without the L'70. It will be MUCH simpler, more realistic than the VK DB using the L'70, and the Panther using the :L'100, and for that matter you'll probably enjoy it more. Honestly, you're going to be driving the Panther for longer than you'll be driving the VK DB.

bugged post...sigh
Edited by Leviathann, May 09 2012 - 05:33.

+1 to you, sir.

DerJager, on May 09 2012 - 01:34, said:

the only thing I will say to this is NO to the removeal of the 75mm KwK44 L/100, thats all.

oh one more thing, I think you missed the 88mm KwK44 L/100.
Edited by BluefoxP, May 09 2012 - 05:32.

the 75 L/100 needs to stay. No amount of maneuverability can help counteract the sheer lack of firepower the loss of that weapon would do to the Panther.

Do not remove the Russian Anti-tank gun from the Marder II. You do that, you gut the TD into uselessness. Not only that, but it historically had the 76r. The StuG III also needs the L/70 to do it's work in this game.
the 88 L/100 needs to stay as well. German tanks get balanced as snipers, no sense in taking away these marksmen weapons.

Penetration and consistent damage would be nice for a buff though

BluefoxP, on May 09 2012 - 05:31, said:

Sope, I simply subbed in the 88mm L'71 Rhinemetall design, which could penetrate ~250mm of armor, as opposed to the 223mm of the 88mm L'100. It will be rather a rather interesting combination, VERY high penetration, by terrible alpha damage for a tier 9 medium.


And buffing the 75mm L'70 to historical numbers of ~172mm of penetration will make the 75mm L'100 unessecary. 172mm of penetration is enough for a tier 7 medium. The Russian and US tier 8's deal with 170-175mm of penetration. Granted manuverablity will need to be increased since its still losing 28mm of penetration. But the L'100 is still an unessecary weapon, and it would only serve to increase the length of the grind.

Now I'm all for a bit of a challenge, but if you honestly think that the grrind will be so short, that we need to tie up space in the screens and menus with the L'100, then you are sorely mistaken.


Yes, it will be a change in dynamics for the Panther. No, that isn't nessicarily a bad thing. Panther drivers will already have expirience in the nessecary driving style from both the Panzer III/IV and the VK3001(H) if they went up through the 3001, or the VK3002 if they went through the 3601 route.

The way it stands now, the panther makes an immediate change from fast and manuverable flanker/brawler to a sniper tank. Its something the Germans have never had in their tree before the Panther, and that change can be rather harsh. But if we give it 172mm of penetration, and buff its manuverablity, we have a transition tank.

The Panther would still posses in large measure the manuverablity possesed by the Panzer III/IV, VK 3001, and the VK 3002, bui it would also teach drivers how to play a sniper tank with the 75mm L'70. This would thereby ease the transition from flanker/brawler over to sniper.

Poojawa, on May 09 2012 - 06:08, said:

You did not read the changes I suggested. The StuG would still have its 136mm of penetration, and would still be fairly accurate.For the Panther and 88mm L'100, see the above post.

I'm not saying leave the ROF, accuracy, aim time, damage, etc alone, I'm just suggesting the changes for penetration and availablity of guns for each tank. Obviously we can adjust soft stats like ROF,, accuracy, aim-time etc. at need.