59 replies to this topic

[Garbad]

This guide is to discuss positional warfare. By this I mean fighting in a position that offers you an advantage, either by maximizing the strength of your tank or by giving you a tactical advantage. I will include a variety of tiers and tanks, and also I will include some company battles to show group tactics.

Enjoy, comments welcome:

T110 - Hills - Company Battles

http://www.filedropp...48usa-t110hills



I am assigned to play defense, free saftey style. Within the first few minutes, its clear the enemy will attempt a blob push around the north. I fall into position, yet hang back. I do this because we want to create the illusion of weakness -- as the enemy probes around, they see a few mouses, which they can overwhelm. Yet when the rush comes, they stumble into a funnel of fire, and are repulsed with great losses. The key idea here is deceptive strength -- I gained little by moving up and being seen, yet by being in the right place without the enemy knowing it we were able to severely bleed them.

Another tip is to note how I was positioned. Unlike many people, I did not turn my tank towards them, I angled it away from them. This is because if they shoot at my side, the extreme angle is almost certain to zero damage crit or autobounce, yet my front is still angled for better hardness. Note how they cannot penetrate me until I move up.

AMX 13 90 - Campinova - Company Battles
http://www.filedropp...mx1390malinovka


This is a textbook example of scouting on campinova. I early spot across the field (doing a poor job, I note), then take position quickly to spot the hill and deny their scouts position. I also adjust bushes to avoid blind fire while still being able to spot. So far, this is all routine.

However, our team lacks mediums, so we lights have to fill the gap. Unforuntately, our heavy push fails and all die, leaving me and two arty against two heavies and an arty. I am able to spot and kill the arty, leaving one heavy on our cap (our arty TD mode him) and me against a KT with time running out. I know I can only kill him if all of my shots penetrate, and I know I can take two hits, so I decide to simply rush and try to pound his sides. Unforutnately, I bounce a shot, and don't have time to reload before a draw.

But an interesting bit of luck comes into play. I had rushed and attacked the KT with only 5 shots in my clip. The KT, likely counting shots, evidently belives I still have that 6th shot, and greatly fears letting me penetrate his butt. Accordingly, he trys to avoid me, and lets me "push" his tank where I want it so arty can fire on him with the clock running out!

P.S.  Sadly, the replays I had been saving to use are corrupted or incompatable, so I decided to run with what I had from last night.

[Defender]

Good stuff Garbad, thank you!

BTW same Garbad from Rackam?

Edited by Defender, May 09 2012 - 16:57.

[Garbad]

Yup. The rack is busting out!

[Defender]

Spain FTW!

[Fattty]

The T110 tip for angling the front armor (the 'best' example) works extremely well on KV-5's, especially if you hide the R2D2 side.

[KilljoyCutter]

I read elsewhere that 7.3 once again invalidated all previous replays.

There's not much point in saving them long-term now, as it appears they're going to be made worthless without 19 different installations of WoT on your computer.

Maybe one of the HDD companies has a secret deal with WarGaming.  [/tinfoil]

[bobdawonderweasel]

I certainly don't agree with all of your opinions Garbad but this was an excellent guide.  +1

[International_Barfighter]

Dang, outta positive rep for the day, but this is a great guide, well done!

[sela]

I think I got him with 3 seconds left

[BovinityDivinity]

On the topic of positioning...

Lets assume for a moment you've got yourself into a position that's defensively very powerful. Impervious to artillery, extremely well angled, etc. You know there are enemy forces approaching your position, but you can't actually see or engage them yet due to a hill or some other obstruction.

You know your position is strong, but you also know you cannot hold it alone versus the volume of enemy forces approaching. You have some allied tanks with you, but they go rushing away from your position to crest the hill/go around the obstacle/etc and end up in an unfavorable or even position against the incoming forces.

At this point, knowing that your teammates are at best evenly matched but more likely outgunned, do you leave your position to help in the hopes you can turn the tide, or do you simply wait it out and hope you can mop up whatever enemy forces remain that approach your position?

[Garbad]

BovinityDivinity, on May 09 2012 - 18:09, said:

On the topic of positioning...

Lets assume for a moment you've got yourself into a position that's defensively very powerful. Impervious to artillery, extremely well angled, etc. You know there are enemy forces approaching your position, but you can't actually see or engage them yet due to a hill or some other obstruction.

You know your position is strong, but you also know you cannot hold it alone versus the volume of enemy forces approaching. You have some allied tanks with you, but they go rushing away from your position to crest the hill/go around the obstacle/etc and end up in an unfavorable or even position against the incoming forces.

At this point, knowing that your teammates are at best evenly matched but more likely outgunned, do you leave your position to help in the hopes you can turn the tide, or do you simply wait it out and hope you can mop up whatever enemy forces remain that approach your position?

Depends on the context but in general its better to support a fail rush than to let your team die and hope you can win against the blob.

[boneman_66]

I can't watch the whole replay cuz I'm at work, but the first screenshot lends credence to a theory that's been kicking around in the back on my head for a while now.  Namely, that in order to post really top % stats, you kind of have to piggy back onto the aggressiveness (and some would say stupidity of others).

Of course it makes sense not to rush headlong into battle just to get wiped out.  But in a large % of times, if SOMEONE (or someones) isn't the 'tip of the spear', then no amount of positional awareness is going to save you from on onslaught of enemies.  If I read that first pic right, there are a couple of Mauses up ahead probably taking the brunt of the attack allowing you to sit back a bit and snipe away.  Now I'm not saying this is bad not wise etc. but without those guys up there, the enemy doesn't face any opposition and your position becomes much more tenuous.  Granted one could argue that they are more suited to being meat shields that the T110, but I'm guessing superior players either purposely choose tanks that aren't expected to lead the attack, or just play their tanks more conservatively even when they are top tier or in an otherwise 'damage sponge' tank.

Even though I conceptually 'know' this, part of me is unwilling to profit at the expense of others.  Also, I'm just too goddam antsy and blood thirsty so the phrase 'discretion is the better part of valor' is often lost on me lol.

Thoughts?

[Garbad]

boneman_66, on May 09 2012 - 18:22, said:

I can't watch the whole replay cuz I'm at work, but the first screenshot lends credence to a theory that's been kicking around in the back on my head for a while now.  Namely, that in order to post really top % stats, you kind of have to piggy back onto the aggressiveness (and some would say stupidity of others).

Of course it makes sense not to rush headlong into battle just to get wiped out.  But in a large % of times, if SOMEONE (or someones) isn't the 'tip of the spear', then no amount of positional awareness is going to save you from on onslaught of enemies.  If I read that first pic right, there are a couple of Mauses up ahead probably taking the brunt of the attack allowing you to sit back a bit and snipe away.  Now I'm not saying this is bad not wise etc. but without those guys up there, the enemy doesn't face any opposition and your position becomes much more tenuous.  Granted one could argue that they are more suited to being meat shields that the T110, but I'm guessing superior players either purposely choose tanks that aren't expected to lead the attack, or just play their tanks more conservatively even when they are top tier or in an otherwise 'damage sponge' tank.

Even though I conceptually 'know' this, part of me is unwilling to profit at the expense of others.  Also, I'm just too goddam antsy and blood thirsty so the phrase 'discretion is the better part of valor' is often lost on me lol.

Thoughts?

No. Its actually rare for me to NOT be the "tip of the spear." I was in back because that's what I was assigned to do. If I had my choice, I'd be leading an attack, where I think I am more effective. But particularly in the context of a company battle, the role you play is secondary to getting the job done. The guys who play defense get worse stats (because they just sit there a lot of the time) but they are no less essential.

In pubs, if you rely on a pub to do an important job you can expect pubby results. If you need something done well, you better do it. Anyone can snipe, anyone can camp. But who can smash through the enemy and/or flank intelligently as well as you? You have to be smart about not dying, but you sure as hell better be active, and when appropriate, on point (especially in higher tier heavies).

[BovinityDivinity]

Quote

But who can smash through the enemy and/or flank intelligently as well as you? You have to be smart about not dying, but you sure as hell better be active, and when appropriate, on point (especially in higher tier heavies).

That's something that I apparently suck at or something. Pretty much 99.99% of the time if I try to be at the "front of the line" or something, it just results in 11 tanks and 4 arty picking me as their first target. =O

Edit: I'm pretty sure part of it is refusing to accept that when I'm in my KV-1S versus Tier 10 tanks, I shouldn't be trying to lead anything.

Edited by BovinityDivinity, May 09 2012 - 18:30.

[Garbad]

BovinityDivinity, on May 09 2012 - 18:29, said:

That's something that I apparently suck at or something. Pretty much 99.99% of the time if I try to be at the "front of the line" or something, it just results in 11 tanks and 4 arty picking me as their first target. =O

When I learned to attack without dying (as much) I made the leap from good to great.

[boneman_66]

Garbad, on May 09 2012 - 18:26, said:

No. Its actually rare for me to NOT be the "tip of the spear." I was in back because that's what I was assigned to do. If I had my choice, I'd be leading an attack, where I think I am more effective. But particularly in the context of a company battle, the role you play is secondary to getting the job done. The guys who play defense get worse stats (because they just sit there a lot of the time) but they are no less essential.

In pubs, if you rely on a pub to do an important job you can expect pubby results. If you need something done well, you better do it. Anyone can snipe, anyone can camp. But who can smash through the enemy and/or flank intelligently as well as you? You have to be smart about not dying, but you sure as hell better be active, and when appropriate, on point (especially in higher tier heavies).

Interesting.  That's good to know since I'm not very good at hanging back.  It also means that I have a lot to learn about driving heavies as my win % in them is crappy compared to my meds heh . . .

[Flakker2]

What you describe is what VK4502P and E-100 drivers often do (works great with any tank with higher side armor and middle to rear mounted turret). The approach the corner in reverse, exposing their sides at a very sharp angle and hiding the weaker lower frontal glacis.

However, on pike nose tanks, your reverse approach will be less effective, as it will negate the frontal pike armor effectiveness, as the enemy can shoot the plate closest to them.

I have a replay where I kill a IS-4 in my E-100 with 150mm by using that reverse approach and take 0 HP damage (he either bounced off my sides, penetrated skirts doing no damage or damaged my tracks for no damage). It works really well but I am glad that of all the thousands of games I have played, I can count the number of times players have done this on one hand.

[HellBilly]

+1   Good post sir!

[KilljoyCutter]

BovinityDivinity, on May 09 2012 - 18:29, said:

That's something that I apparently suck at or something. Pretty much 99.99% of the time if I try to be at the "front of the line" or something, it just results in 11 tanks and 4 arty picking me as their first target. =O

Edit: I'm pretty sure part of it is refusing to accept that when I'm in my KV-1S versus Tier 10 tanks, I shouldn't be trying to lead anything.

Garbad, on May 09 2012 - 18:30, said:

When I learned to attack without dying (as much) I made the leap from good to great.

I find that I'm much better at second-line support than at being at the FOEB.  This seems to be the major weakness I suffer.

[Garbad]

Flakker2, on May 09 2012 - 18:31, said:

...However, on pike nose tanks, your reverse approach will be less effective, as it will negate the frontal pike armor effectiveness, as the enemy can shoot the plate closest to them.

This is correct, the IS series are best if they are straight on. Just about every other tank will benefit from this, especially german heavies.