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The Truth.... As We Know It


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Captain_Dastardly_Dan #81 Posted May 23 2012 - 15:25

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Cosmeister, on May 23 2012 - 15:11, said:

Yeah, what passes as "history" today is amazing...

Yeah, its almost amusing. Bad information comes in all corners.

I placed my sons in a christian school because he was coming home with work thats didn't add up to what I was taught. Good think my parents kept allot of my school books and projects of mine. I've had to show my son what he isn't being taught and correct lies his teachers were saying.

A person doesn't have to go far to see it happening today on the news unless they are watching the wrong News channels like CNN, Communist News Network or NBC, Nutjobs Buttheads Criminals or MSNBC, Marxist Socialist News By Criminals.

Take the teacher in NC that was angry with a student who asked if NoObama had done anything wrong when he was a kid like Romney.

damonsama #82 Posted May 23 2012 - 15:32

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Awesome read as always.

Meoow #83 Posted May 23 2012 - 15:38

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Wow this is interesting, thanks alot XD

DingBat #84 Posted May 23 2012 - 15:57

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Rotbone, on May 23 2012 - 15:06, said:

lol I find it amusing how people from the east seem to know more about American History by getting their information from a book. It has been proven that Authors of books have in the past and still currently write to change history to indoctrinate, influence and change young minds for their own agenda in hopes of changing the world into their Marxist or Socialist fantasy utopia.

Yes, we should probably burn all new books. Or, hell, burn em all, just to be safe.

Guardsman_Ted #85 Posted May 23 2012 - 16:33

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Meanwhile, Zhukov is chuckling while reading this thread.

Aggies1 #86 Posted May 23 2012 - 16:40

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Fantastic Chieftain's Hatch! I will be picking up the book!

DingBat #87 Posted May 23 2012 - 16:50

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Guardsman_Ted, on May 23 2012 - 16:33, said:

Meanwhile, Zhukov is chuckling while reading this thread.

Zhukov was something of a brute force butcher. I prefer Rokkosovsky, who was actually in command of Operation Uranus (Zhukov was up north at the time, getting his ass kicked by Model).

Guardsman_Ted #88 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:02

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DingBat, on May 23 2012 - 16:50, said:

Zhukov was something of a brute force butcher. I prefer Rokkosovsky, who was actually in command of Operation Uranus (Zhukov was up north at the time, getting his ass kicked by Model).

Not quite as brute force as some of the Russian generals. Now, who didn't get their ass kicked by Model? Stylish bastard he was as well, Model that is.
I suggest you read some reports on the battles of Khalkhin Gol of which Zhukov was in charge and won handsomely.
Now, how much slaughter can we really blame on Zhukov and not on rash and ill informed orders which came directly from Stalin? Especially during the early war.

Flyhalfer #89 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:10

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So, Harry Yeide has several books out as you know Chieftain, I want to begin reading them but am considering which to get first.

I was thinking it should be one of the general armor of WWII books. Which would you recommend?

Rhomer #90 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:15

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Rotbone, on May 23 2012 - 15:15, said:

You don't know that, you have no way in knowing how things would have been if it wasn't for D-day.

It's like saying if the US hadn't drop the big one on Japan. North America would be under Japan rule now. YOU DON"T KNOW THAT!

Anything can change the tides or war, anything.

The Germans were very close to the bomb themselves. At the time we didn't know how close but lets say D-Day wasn't successful. Russia could have had the big one dropped on them and Russia would be Germrussia today, but we will never know because don't know.
Minus the fact that they wouldnt have had a way to deliver it.
You gotta remember, the key to the bombs success wasnt just that it could be made, but that the US alone, had a bomber capable of delivering it.
If we are generous, we can say that its estimated payload would require a bomber capable of carrying approx 10,000lbs of ordance. To survive the actual bombing and not get caught in the blast itself, the aircraft would need either a service ceiling drop of a shade over 28,000 ft or a cruising speed of 480 mph AT 25,000ft or less

What German aircraft met those specifications during the war? especially in 1945 when the Luftwaffe was kaput? i suppose the Me 264 had it not been cancelled and could be problem solved into a usable production model.

The_Chieftain #91 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:24

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Flyhalfer, on May 23 2012 - 17:10, said:

So, Harry Yeide has several books out as you know Chieftain, I want to begin reading them but am considering which to get first.

I was thinking it should be one of the general armor of WWII books. Which would you recommend?

Actually, I've only read that one and The Tank Killers. I've been giving some serious consideration to a book review section for us all to contribute to.

holakc #92 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:42

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Rotbone, on May 23 2012 - 15:06, said:

lol I find it amusing how people from the east...

when you say this, you means people from the east of... ?



Tliish #93 Posted May 23 2012 - 17:49

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The_Chieftain, on May 23 2012 - 17:24, said:

Actually, I've only read that one and The Tank Killers. I've been giving some serious consideration to a book review section for us all to contribute to.

I'd be more than happy to contribute a few titles from my personal library:

Brazen Chariots, Robert Crisp

Battles Hitler Lost, Richardson & Steirman

Marshall Zhukov's Greatest Battles, Georgi K. Zhukov

On the Trail of the Fox,  David Irving

Panzer Battles,  Major General F. W. von Mellenthin

The Black March, Peter Neumann

Citadel: the Battle of Kursk

Panzer Leader, Heinz Guderian, Kenneth Macksey

German Armored Warfare of WWII, Ian Baxter

Hitler's War on Russia, Paul Carell

The Battle for Moscow, Col. Albert Seaton

Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland, Horst Schiebert

SS-Liebstandarte The History of the First SS Division 1933-45, Rupert Butler

There's a few titles I can vouch for as being good reads, full of useful and illuminating information.  I have a lot more books on my bookshelf on the subject but, that will do for now, I guess.

Grindstone #94 Posted May 23 2012 - 18:50

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Rhomer, on May 23 2012 - 17:15, said:

Minus the fact that they wouldnt have had a way to deliver it.
You gotta remember, the key to the bombs success wasnt just that it could be made, but that the US alone, had a bomber capable of delivering it.
If we are generous, we can say that its estimated payload would require a bomber capable of carrying approx 10,000lbs of ordance. To survive the actual bombing and not get caught in the blast itself, the aircraft would need either a service ceiling drop of a shade over 28,000 ft or a cruising speed of 480 mph AT 25,000ft or less

What German aircraft met those specifications during the war? especially in 1945 when the Luftwaffe was kaput? i suppose the Me 264 had it not been cancelled and could be problem solved into a usable production model.

V2 ring a bell?

FreeFOXMIKE #95 Posted May 23 2012 - 19:19

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Two interesting things about Patton:

that although Patton was a bigot like most, the fact remains that he did lend his name to the advancement of blacks in the military at the time, unlike most other military officers (Patton did prevent a black soldier from being lynched while serving as commander of a fort in El Paso before the war.). Most of the veterans of the 761st that Abdul-Jabbar interviewed stated they were proud to have served under a general widely considered one of the most brilliant and.feared Allied military leaders of World War II.
Patton did prevent a black soldier from being lynched while serving as commander of a fort inEl Paso before the war
During the Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers who had raided American warehouses were reported to have disguised themselves as Americans guarding the checkpoints in order to ambush American soldiers. Patton solved this problem by ordering black soldiers, including the 761st, to guard the checkpoints, and gave the order to shoot any white soldiers at the checkpoints who acted suspiciousl

Also General Patton was the first to Intergrate troops in the US Army During th Battle of the Bulge He allowed "Colored" troops to replenish Depleted Units manned by "White" Troops. But they were NEVER place in a position where they would be in command of them. Historian Hugh Cole pointed out that Patton was also the first American military leader to integrate rifle companies "when manpower got tight. Patton was a Man need for the timeof WW2

Rhomer #96 Posted May 23 2012 - 20:46

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Grindstone, on May 23 2012 - 18:50, said:

V2 ring a bell?
Didnt have the payload capability, or the accuracy. They only had roughly a 50% chance of hitting the country they were roughly aimed at. Any nuke program the Germans could have had would have been like Americas. producing a few viable devices that needed to be carefully marshalled for use instead of tossed on any available weapons platform and shot away for no strategic gain.

This also doesnt include that to work, the device needed to airburst (not plow into the ground). The germans never fielded a mass produced  Proximity fuze capable of doing that before getting overrun by the Allies. For the Germans to have successfully made the nuclear option a viable strategy, so many changes would have had to have happened as early as 1941 that you might as well surmise that the germans would have perfected worm hole technology....

19DELTAPAPA4 #97 Posted May 23 2012 - 20:56

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Grindstone, on May 23 2012 - 18:50, said:

V2 ring a bell?
not to mention the ju390,the new york bomber. 2 were made and could reach moscow.

Grindstone #98 Posted May 23 2012 - 21:04

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Rhomer, on May 23 2012 - 20:46, said:

Didnt have the payload capability, or the accuracy. They only had roughly a 50% chance of hitting the country they were roughly aimed at. Any nuke program the Germans could have had would have been like Americas. producing a few viable devices that needed to be carefully marshalled for use instead of tossed on any available weapons platform and shot away for no strategic gain.

This also doesnt include that to work, the device needed to airburst (not plow into the ground). The germans never fielded a mass produced  Proximity fuze capable of doing that before getting overrun by the Allies. For the Germans to have successfully made the nuclear option a viable strategy, so many changes would have had to have happened as early as 1941 that you might as well surmise that the germans would have perfected worm hole technology....
My mentioning of the V2 was to start some snyapses firing. The Germans were working on a rocket-based system for payload delivery of their a-bomb. Heavy bomber not required.
Not to mention you don't really need to be pin-point accurate with an a-bomb. (BTW atom bombs are not "nukes". Different process involved.)
The German project was different from the American version, only the physics were the same.

sheep21 #99 Posted May 23 2012 - 21:22

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I will respond to some of the posts here when i have my sources available, I would say re: criticism and casualty figures in normandy.
Yes, the march on caen was slow, it could very well been have taken as planned in inital estimates  but due to caution in commanders at a local level the german had time to regroup and form their lines.

For a great read on the Normandy campaign as a whole, please do obtain a copy of anthony beevor's D-Day: The Battle for Normandy, it is a really good read and very impartial, it gives you a great idea about the mass of forces arrayed against the Commonwealth forces in the their sector and how the germans percieved the threats they faced.

I have nothing against Patton, he was to me a traditional cavalry commander, the breakthrough, the exploitation and the pursuit were what he loved, Montgomery was cut from the same cloth but tempered by his expiriences as a brigadier in WW1 and the huge loss of life he saw.
Both were very much the darlings of the press. Montgomery never helped himself when it come to accomadating other people and this shows in his relations with several US commanders (and some British) but I feel that the man's name is continually being dragged through the mud as some sort of dope who can only build up a monumently large forces before shouting "charge!"
The amount of stick the man gets and the way his efforts are dismissed amazes me, i think everyone should take a step back and actually look at the actions and achievement (and failures) of both men before just wheeling out the same old drivel again and again (Some of which has been circulating since 1944!)

EDIT:

Oh, i forgot, thanks chieftan for this one, was a very interesting read, will yo do some more on other Allied Commanders? MacArthur? Slim, Stillwell, Zhukov and maybe Montgomery?

Thanks again

Edited by sheep21, May 23 2012 - 21:31.


Gungunus #100 Posted May 23 2012 - 21:55

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Another outstanding Chieftan's Hatch....

I really enjoy learning the insights of history from the eyes of "the other side" - the "victor's truth" distorts much of our history and as the old adage goes, often it is your enemies who will tell you the truth better than your friends.




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