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OrganicMechanic #21 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:12

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Master4th, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:01, said:

Under preform is is one thing, but the tigers lack of historical speed and load capacity begs to wonder which developers raged over getting pwned by a Tiger tank in game.

On the road the Tiger 1 was rated at 38km/h not 30. The Tiger II was rated at 41.5 max road, 38 sustained road speed. No where close to the 27km/h its currently limited at. I see that the IS series tanks can keep up with my Panther 2. However the German tanks are not afforded the same equal playing field.

In the end I see a lot of smoke and mirrors, nay, excuses about why this tank is less powerful than it should be. Its obvious by things like the Micheal Wittman Award being changed that the Tiger and those who showed its potential still leave a Bad taste in the Soviet mouth.

Every single person I've talked to not only agrees with this sentiment, the under performance of the Tiger in-game is their(and mine) biggest disappointment as far as how tanks translate on the digital battlefield.

The_Chieftain #22 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:13

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Grimmy_Onland, on Jun 04 2012 - 20:06, said:

Nice article, now explain the Chaffee turret please...

I can't. It came off a different tank. I've not even looked into turret ring size, truthfully. Note to self...

OrganicMechanic #23 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:15

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FaustianQ, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:07, said:

So you are someones alt, or you're just really bad at lying.

Exaggeration aside, his point stands.

HoIo #24 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:23

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People seriously asked why the stock turret was there? I wasn't really confused because the picture they give you in the tech tree is what you'll eventually end up with, heh, which is why I was confused when I got the Tiger II and the stock turret was the turret in the picture :Smile_veryhappy:

But even if the turret wasn't the correct turret, you'd still get the right one sooner or later, War Gaming may have done some odd things, but they at least didn't screw up the tanks imagery in this game

Edit: VegasRon isn't the only person.... There's a reason I don't have my Tiger anymore... What happened to the tanks I loved as a little boy so long ago???

Edited by Teru, Jun 04 2012 - 21:26.


Jiggster1961 #25 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:31

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Thank you for another extremely informative post.  Having read several books on German Armour I had some understanding of the Tiger's development but nothing as in depth as your article goes into.  Well done. Hopefully this puts the questions to rest.    If anyone's interested in another good series on German Armour I would recommend the Panzer Colors 3 volume set by Squadron Publications as a nice place to start.

Cheers, always a pleasure to read your most informative articles.

Regards,

CMRE Gordon "Jiggs" Jennings (ret)

Big_Spud #26 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:42

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The_Chieftain, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:13, said:

I can't. It came off a different tank. I've not even looked into turret ring size, truthfully. Note to self...

lol, even the devs dont know why it has that turret XD

Master4th #27 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:56

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Forgive my lack of specifics.
The instance I noticed was IS7 and a IS8, on grass. Possibley some incline I can't recall. (and yes I run fuel)
55km/h Panther II
50km/h IS7 Tier 10
50km/h IS8 Tier 9
51km/h AMX 50 100 Tier 8
65km/h AMX 50 120 Tier 9
65km/h AMX 50B Tier 10

My argument stands on speed, the stats are there and easy to research. French, Russian, and American equal tier heavy's have there called out speeds. However the Tiger1 and Tiger II are forced to suffer at 10 km/h less than specification.

FaustianQ #28 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:56

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VegasRon, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:15, said:

Exaggeration aside, his point stands.

Besides top speed, how is the Tiger at all underrepresented in anyway that another tank isn't?

Master4th #29 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 21:59

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VegasRon, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:15, said:

Exaggeration aside, his point stands.


Those stats on tiger speeds are off the white papers on those tanks. Feel free to look them up.

Skitz #30 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:02

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Armored_Cavalry, on Jun 04 2012 - 18:53, said:

♫ Hard Kitty Cold Kitty Big Block of Steel ♪ Mean Kitty Scary Kitty Boom Boom Boom ♫

'boom' doesn't rhyme with 'steel.' :Smile-hiding:

IrishGuard #31 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:03

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Another excellent and informative article as usual Chieftain. I love the Tiger 1 in game. The tradtional and proper, historcal 88 isn't bad. Though when you the L71 88mm, holy shit! I loved the tiger 1 from that moment on and the tiger 2 seemed like crap in comparisson. It's speed for a Heavy was suprsing and I felt the tank was superbly balanced. Tips, give it a camo net, repair kit, angle armor when engaging other tanks. Play as a sniper and make sure your crew has camo training. My ideal garage has an Easy 8 sherman, Tiger 1, M26 Pershing, M24 Chaffee, M46 Patton and a GW Type E. Of course their are some british tanks I also want.

Master4th #32 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:03

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FaustianQ, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:56, said:

Besides top speed, how is the Tiger at all underrepresented in anyway that another tank isn't?

its my understanding from other posts ( have not verified) that the reload times are also increased on the Tiger 1 and 2.

Speed is a huge nerf, becuase it robs your ability to flank, avoid enemy fire, and change positions rapidly to avoid arty, or take advantage of enemy positional diffencency.

Skitz #33 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:04

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Legiondude, on Jun 04 2012 - 20:08, said:

In short: it's a series of design choices by Wargaming that have made these tanks "underperform" compared to their historic counterparts. Really all you can do is deal with it because these choices are very hard to workaround

In game developer jargon: "Gameplay > Realism"

It's something I've had to live by for about 20 years.

Fluffy_Kittens #34 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:05

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the tiger thing never did bother me, what i always found so stupid was the answers i got for why the panther turret is on the panzer IV.

i mean the panzer 4 had a half dozen turrets for the tank alone, so i just dont get why they had to put a panther turret on it.  it looks retarded, big, overhags the sides, it's just plain wrong.  

i just dont get why they could not put a late model turret on it (it's shorter by a long shot), and then just add the L71 gun to the panzer 4 turret.

xxXWVWXxx #35 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:21

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yah when i first got my tiger i was supriced of the first turrent but was delighted with the second turrent and guns

Zepheris #36 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:27

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Fluffy_Kittens, on Jun 04 2012 - 22:05, said:

the tiger thing never did bother me, what i always found so stupid was the answers i got for why the panther turret is on the panzer IV.

i mean the panzer 4 had a half dozen turrets for the tank alone, so i just dont get why they had to put a panther turret on it.  it looks retarded, big, overhags the sides, it's just plain wrong.  

i just dont get why they could not put a late model turret on it (it's shorter by a long shot), and then just add the L71 gun to the panzer 4 turret.
??? i didn't realize it was possible to mount the L/70 on the standard PzIV turret, i thought the standard turret on PzIV does not have enough space to mount the L/70?

not that it makes much more sense to mount the pantherthurm since the chassis can't actually handle the extra weight but i did not recall L/70 being feasible to be mounted on the original turret for PzIV.

Whee #37 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:29

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Wow! So it wasn't just a made up turret. Thanks!

FaustianQ #38 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 22:42

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Master4th, on Jun 04 2012 - 21:56, said:

Forgive my lack of specifics.
The instance I noticed was IS7 and a IS8, on grass. Possibley some incline I can't recall. (and yes I run fuel)
55km/h Panther II
50km/h IS7 Tier 10
50km/h IS8 Tier 9
51km/h AMX 50 100 Tier 8
65km/h AMX 50 120 Tier 9
65km/h AMX 50B Tier 10

My argument stands on speed, the stats are there and easy to research. French, Russian, and American equal tier heavy's have there called out speeds. However the Tiger1 and Tiger II are forced to suffer at 10 km/h less than specification.

IS-8 is actually supposed to be 42kph, as far as I am aware. However, the IS-7 is also supposed to go 60kph, not 50. The other three are French tanks, and furthermore the Panther II is mostly fiction, in the same sense the T110E5 is fiction - both reached mockup/prototype stage but never production nor were produced or fielded in any capacity.

Tiger II is 3kph under specification as well, not 10. Do not misunderstand me - I find the speed a weakness of the Tiger and ingame it feels like it wants to go faster based upon handling (turns/accels well), but mostly because it can't duck out of danger very well. Overall I did find it superior, personally, to the Tiger P, and nearly equal to the IS-1 if not superior in some situations, and it's just an outright better AMX M4/45. Trying to compare anything in T7 to the T29 is a foolish endeavor.

As to the RoF, I am fairly sure if at all that is based off the ready rack, and not an overall representation of RPM and if anything is for anti-tank guns. The ingame RPM is fine where it is if only slightly underwhelming for it's alpha.

Master4th #39 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 23:03

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FaustianQ, on Jun 04 2012 - 22:42, said:

IS-8 is actually supposed to be 42kph, as far as I am aware. However, the IS-7 is also supposed to go 60kph, not 50. The other three are French tanks, and furthermore the Panther II is mostly fiction, in the same sense the T110E5 is fiction - both reached mockup/prototype stage but never production nor were produced or fielded in any capacity.

Tiger II is 3kph under specification as well, not 10. Do not misunderstand me - I find the speed a weakness of the Tiger and ingame it feels like it wants to go faster based upon handling (turns/accels well), but mostly because it can't duck out of danger very well. Overall I did find it superior, personally, to the Tiger P, and nearly equal to the IS-1 if not superior in some situations, and it's just an outright better AMX M4/45. Trying to compare anything in T7 to the T29 is a foolish endeavor.

As to the RoF, I am fairly sure if at all that is based off the ready rack, and not an overall representation of RPM and if anything is for anti-tank guns. The ingame RPM is fine where it is if only slightly underwhelming for it's alpha.


Every spec sheet I have seen on the Tiger 2 states 38kp/h or 24mph. Keep in mind thats on level road. On swampy ground speed is reduced to I believe in the area of 10 to 12 km/h.

Edited by Master4th, Jun 04 2012 - 23:04.


Speedycake582 #40 Posted Jun 04 2012 - 23:14

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from what i read the early Tigers had a top speed of about 45 kilometres per hour (28 mph) over optimal terrain. This was not recommended for normal operation and was discouraged in training. crews were told to not exceed 2600 rpm due to unreliability of the early Maybach engines at maximum 3000 rpm. Later an engine governor was installed, capping the engine to 2600 rpm and the maximum Tiger's speed to about 38 kilometres per hour (24 mph). By comparison, the medium tanks of the time, such as a Sherman or T-34, averaged a top speed of about 45 kilometres per hour (28 mph), so the Tiger did have a very respectable speed being nearly twice as heavy.




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