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KingTiger vs SuperPershing - The True Fact


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JagdTiger_23 #1 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:31

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About the Battle at Dessau KingTiger vs Super-Pershing

Ok, lets see now:

The rarest tank in the entire ETO (only 1 Super Pershing saw action in Europe) 'magically' and 'coincidentally' manages to find and best one of the rarest German tanks of that time......in an area NOWHERE NEAR where any surviving King Tiger units are operating? Far fetched propaganda which has now been shown to be nonsense. We now have a complete record of all King Tiger actions and movements and none were anywhere near Dessau in April 1945. Did the KT fly to Dessau on its own?

There are NO pictures of this phantom King Tiger at Dessau. No unit ID. Not even a tank number. A King Tiger k.o'd by a Super Pershing would have been a great pictorial attraction for the occupying U.S forces , cuz is the most powerful tank of Germany.....yet there is not even one picture of the aftermath of this mysterious 'event'.

The U.S thought enough to take lots of pictures of the Tiger I k.o'd by the regular Pershing near Elsdorf in Feb 45, but 'mysteriously' NOBODY ever took a pic of this phantom King Tiger at Dessau????

ALL Tiger unit movements are known and recorded. Often we even now know the exact number of tanks they had at any particular given time.
You will be surprised at how much bona fide German archives have come to light these last 15 years.
Wolfgang Schneider and others have provided exhaustive research and shed complete light on what was unknown before because nobody bothered. Now we know everything. Daily combat records, movements and allocations of ALL the Tiger units are known and are widely available.

King Tiger unit placements on April 21st 1945 (Dessau event):


Battalion 501= unit already disbanded near Paderborn.
Battalion 502= unit disbanded 19th April in Harz mountains.
Battalion 503= in combat in the Austrian Hungarian border area near Stronsdorf.
Battalion 504= In action near Ferrara, Italy.
Battalion 505= unit disbanded in East Prussia. Last Tiger k.od 15th April.
Battalion 506= Unit disbanded 14th April at Iserlohn (the Ruhr).
Battalion 507= Last Tigers in action on 11th April near Osterode (Harz)
King Tiger unit placements on April 21st 1945 (continued).
Battalion 508= In Italy. No King Tigers in the battalion.
Battalion 509= in action in lower Austria between St Polten and Amstetten.
Battalion 510= Unit disbanded 18th April in the Bode valley.
Grossdeutschland= No King Tigers.
SS 501 = In action at Eschenau, Austria.
SS 502= In action around Fortstenwalde (south of Berlin).
SS 503= In action in Berlin.

Info by Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle book , Wolfgang Schneider and bundesarchiv (German archives)
We even know when they received their tanks.

I can tell you where each unit was on which day and date.
NONE were anywhere near Dessau on 21st April 1945. Closest was SS battalion 502. It was located SEVENTY miles northeast around Forstenwalde engaging the Soviets.
There were NO King Tigers at Dessau.

Have you ever wondered why there was never any picture of this 'mysterious King Tiger' defeated by the Super Pershing? Because it didnt happen. No pictures. No Tiger unit ID. No records from German bundesarchives. NOTHING.Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Makes a nice 'mythical' story to try to show the most powerful US tank of WW2 bested the most powerful German tank of WW2 but thats all it was.
The US captured Dessau and were there for ages.....yet NOT ONE picture? Hmmmmm.

The soviets have pics of the First kingTiger Destroyed , Was an special thing , rare moment , cuz the soviets destroyed the ''powerful the massive Kingtiger!''

http://s13.postimage...ger_smacked.jpg

frontal hits merely gouged out armor and ricocheted off on frontal , but was penetrated on lower hull and turret by an SU-100 brigade.

If we go by all allied tankers accounts of 'Tigers' they faced then there must have been bloody thousands of them in 1944-45. 'Tigers' were everywhere if we listen to them.
Panthers were mostly called Tigers. Jagdpanthers too. Even Panzer IV sometimes.
King Tiger wasn't the only German AFV with 88mm KWK 43 L/71.
Jagdpanther had that gun. So did Nashorn.
Again NO KING TIGERS WERE AT DESSAU.
Nearest King Tiger unit was 100 miles to the east fighting the Soviets.

A Tiger I was k.o'd by a Pershing near Cologne in early 45 (and vice versa). We have documented proof and photos of that , but SuperPershing vs KingTiger is very bogus.


Lets see the sources 3ad site :

Now , the original source of Dessau battle on Book : ANOTHER RIVER, ANOTHER TOWN by John P Irwin


Quote

But my own experience proved the myth to be exactly that. On the other hand, I could not free myself of a fear of the giant Tiger, Germany's awesome heavy tank. I knew of its firepower and heavy armor. But I had also learned of one of its weaknesses -- its slow turret traverse. Unlike our Shermans and Pershings, the Tiger had a manual rather than a power traverse. It was a weakness I had learned to exploit. And I got my chance all too soon.
Our tanks entered the city slowly and spread out along different streets, alert to any sudden appearance of German firepower. The half-tracks behind us stopped, and the armored infantry doughs dismounted and began to move with the tanks. Fortunately, Pete had loaded our cannon, for as we turned the corner onto a street, we were confronted with a Tiger, and it was ready for us. The gunner fired at us as we rounded the corner, but missed us completely. The shell went high, over our tank. I returned fire point-blank at the royal monster, but saw the tracer of my shell ricochet off the front armor and take a course of its own skyward . Pete slammed another round into the breech, and at that same moment we heard a thud on the turret. But I took aim and fired again, and this time the shell penetrated the thin armor on the Tiger's exposed underbelly as it attempted to climb over some rubble. The ammo, located in the turret floor, exploded, leaving the burning hulk of the Tiger obstructing our path.

Tiger , Tiger , Tiger...he simply states "Tiger" , no KingTiger , no KonnigsTiger , no Tiger II , no VIB Tiger , no Panzer VI B , only Tiger.

B22G #2 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:35

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German bias

cheesellama #3 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:39

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View PostJagdTiger_23, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:31, said:

the most powerful tank of Germany....

WRONG! The Jagdtiger was the most powerful tank in the German arsenal actually deployed!


View PostB22G, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:35, said:

German bias

lol

+1 for the irony.

Zeramas #4 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:41

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About that story, I've read that in fact it was a Pz IV. I can't remember where, but I did.

Keep in mind that, sometimes, in the heat of combat, you cannot check casualties. And some crews are more experienced than others....

Remember, for instance, the British in Africa. The first time they faced the 75 mm/L48 in the Pz IV, they believed that it was the Flak 88 mounted on tanks.



Of course, reports would say "Tiger II" for propaganda meanings. Like the "IS-3 fighting in Berlin the last days of the European War Theatre", and then we realize (even through Soviet sources) that the IS-3 units were traveling to the front when the war in Europe ended. It happens.

Priory_of_Sion #5 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:55

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Tigerphobia.

Many Allied tank crews feared the Tiger so much that they regularly confused PzIVs as Tigers. I remember reading about the Russians claiming 100s of Tiger kills at Kursk while many were actually PzIVs.

Tigerphobia still exists because many new players believe it to be awesome because of Tigerphobia induced by TV shows.

Harkonen_siegetank #6 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 03:57

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View Postohsi, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:41, said:

Keep in mind that, sometimes, in the heat of combat, you cannot check casualties. And some crews are more experienced than others....
This is true, but US did take Dessau and have all the time in the world to confirm said kill. Wrecks dont magically disappear.

This is classic propaganda, war is based on lies anyway. Like um...recent one. Iraqi WMD...lol..

JagdTiger_23 #7 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 15:26

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View Postcheesellama, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:39, said:

WRONG! The Jagdtiger was the most powerful tank in the German arsenal actually deployed!


We're saying about the most powerful tank , not about the most powerful JAGDpanzer (Hunter). have an little difference.




View PostHarkonen_siegetank, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:57, said:

This is true, but US did take Dessau and have all the time in the world to confirm said kill. Wrecks dont magically disappear.

This is classic propaganda, war is based on lies anyway. Like um...recent one. Iraqi WMD...lol..

Sure guys , my grandpa fought on Italy in 1944 , he had his leg torn off by an MG , but on records says an elefant shot against the short wall where he was.

Zeramas #8 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 16:14

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View PostHarkonen_siegetank, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:57, said:

This is true, but US did take Dessau and have all the time in the world to confirm said kill. Wrecks dont magically disappear.

This is classic propaganda, war is based on lies anyway. Like um...recent one. Iraqi WMD...lol..

Agreed.

Drifter80 #9 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 17:05

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Wow, very interesting write up. I’ve read a few books on this engagement and I’ll look through them again after work but I don’t believe they did show the destroyed KT (shot in the underside as it climbed over rubble I believe).
We tend to associate propaganda (at least I do) with the axis powers and communist Russia but all powers did and do participate in it. For example the US never published any info about the Japanese balloon bombings on the west coast. This lack of information may have lead to the suspension of that campaign. If that Japanese continued and started lucking out and caused more forest fires (major goal) or hit populations centers it could’ve caused some unrest.
Late in the war “Tigerphobia" was very real in the minds of allied servicemen. So was the idea of not wanting to die in a war that’s almost over. Maybe something like this would have helped to get boots moving. Kinda break the German armor “myth.” I could see that as a big justification to the deployment to seek out this type of engagement aside from wanting to test newer high level armor vs the best the enemy has to offer (or to test it against what may have been considered on par with a future soviet foe)

Edited by Drifter80, Jun 13 2012 - 17:06.


JagdTiger_23 #10 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 17:28

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And this 'Tigerphobia' make the Tiger the most famous tank on ww2.

maxman1 #11 Posted Jun 13 2012 - 21:55

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View PostHarkonen_siegetank, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:57, said:

This is true, but US did take Dessau and have all the time in the world to confirm said kill. Wrecks dont magically disappear.

The tank was destroyed by an exploson of the ammo rack below the turret, which could cause some difficulty in identification.

It's even questionable if it even was a tank to begin with.

There is also a very real possibility that it was a gun emplacement and an ammo bin.



I left out your comment on Iraq because it is both seemingly trying to create unrest, and questionable at best.

Quote

the Tiger had a manual rather than a power traverse. It was a weakness I had learned to exploit. And I got my chance all too soon.

The Tiger I actually had hydraulic traverse. It was still very, very slow, though.

The Panzer IV had a manual traverse.

CommissarRykov #12 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 05:33

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Reading personal accounts like this you have to remember they are written by scared young men facing death on a constant basis. Americans in combat journals referred to almost all German tanks as Tigers, artillery was commonly called 88s, troops wearing camo were declared Waffen-SS, etc. Combat Journals can be excellent but if you are taking that much detail out of them you are completely missing the point especially since most of the time proper documentation is never given. A lot of units also exagerate when offenses fail platoons and companies turn into battalions and divisions, etc.

Lezt #13 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:11

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View PostPriory_of_Sion, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:55, said:

Tigerphobia.

Many Allied tank crews feared the Tiger so much that they regularly confused PzIVs as Tigers. I remember reading about the Russians claiming 100s of Tiger kills at Kursk while many were actually PzIVs.

Tigerphobia still exists because many new players believe it to be awesome because of Tigerphobia induced by TV shows.

Actually, the funny thing is that the soviet slang for german tanks during ww2 is Tig... basically, the nickname for german tanks are tigers -> they are not really confusing german tanks as tiger tanks as early in the war, german tanks were named by their marks, it is only late in the war that the zoo names came along.

Teddy_Bear #14 Posted Jun 20 2012 - 10:51

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View PostHarkonen Siege Tank, on Jun 13 2012 - 03:57, said:

This is true, but US did take Dessau and have all the time in the world to confirm said kill. Wrecks dont magically disappear.

This is classic propaganda, war is based on lies anyway. Like um...recent one. Iraqi WMD...lol..

Actually the US found 2,000 canisters of the stuff between 2004 and 2006 with the UN acknowledging the findings. We even had four soldiers hospitalized for nerve gas exposure when an IED (artillery shell) exploded in an ambush.The issue was there was no organized production, or really even disorganized production like the CIA originally believed to be the case, however even so this was not propaganda or "lies", but merely bad intel that many international intelligence agencies including the Mossad and DGSE, believed to be the case independently of the CIA who also arrived at the same conclusions. To delve into more mysterious happenings the Mossad reported that on March 29th there was a massive influx of transports from Iraq to Syria. Some belive this transaction was the foundations of the Syrian nuclear project, but I personaly belive this to be foundationless considering the impracticality of it.

Edited by Teddy_Bear, Jun 20 2012 - 10:54.


CommissarRykov #15 Posted Jun 20 2012 - 20:18

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View PostTeddy_Bear, on Jun 20 2012 - 10:51, said:

Actually the US found 2,000 canisters of the stuff between 2004 and 2006 with the UN acknowledging the findings. We even had four soldiers hospitalized for nerve gas exposure when an IED (artillery shell) exploded in an ambush.The issue was there was no organized production, or really even disorganized production like the CIA originally believed to be the case, however even so this was not propaganda or "lies", but merely bad intel that many international intelligence agencies including the Mossad and DGSE, believed to be the case independently of the CIA who also arrived at the same conclusions. To delve into more mysterious happenings the Mossad reported that on March 29th there was a massive influx of transports from Iraq to Syria. Some belive this transaction was the foundations of the Syrian nuclear project, but I personaly belive this to be foundationless considering the impracticality of it.
The problem is we know they had WMDs because we sold them the damn things. We sold nerve gas and mustard gas shells by the hundreds to the Iraqi military in order to fight Iran. This isn't exactly secret information but it doesn't do the American public much when you find weapons you had sold the Iraqis in order to destabilize the Mid East. Then again America likes to sweep under the rug their failures like this. Such as the pretending that Bin Laden wasn't a former CIA asset in Afghanistan during the Soviet Intervention, attempts to bury that Operation Phoenix in Vietnam killed more American supporters than it ever did NVA advisors or Viet Cong, etc.

Teddy_Bear #16 Posted Jun 21 2012 - 01:54

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View PostCommissarRykov, on Jun 20 2012 - 20:18, said:

The problem is we know they had WMDs because we sold them the damn things. We sold nerve gas and mustard gas shells by the hundreds to the Iraqi military in order to fight Iran. This isn't exactly secret information but it doesn't do the American public much when you find weapons you had sold the Iraqis in order to destabilize the Mid East. Then again America likes to sweep under the rug their failures like this. Such as the pretending that Bin Laden wasn't a former CIA asset in Afghanistan during the Soviet Intervention, attempts to bury that Operation Phoenix in Vietnam killed more American supporters than it ever did NVA advisors or Viet Cong, etc.

That's a misconception, Saddam applied for medical samples at private institutes under the guise of advancing science, like most medical institutions can do. Some evidence suggest the CIA was aware of this, but believed that if the intention was malevolent that Iraq lacked the capabilities to realise that ambition and turn it into a weapon. However, this would not likely be the case as spying upon private medical exchanges would be a violation of several laws and considering how often exchanges like that took place between institutions it's unlikely they would have believed anything would be different about this one.

The rest I won't even bother with, thats just insulting.

CommissarRykov #17 Posted Jun 21 2012 - 03:06

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View PostTeddy_Bear, on Jun 21 2012 - 01:54, said:

That's a misconception, Saddam applied for medical samples at private institutes under the guise of advancing science, like most medical institutions can do. Some evidence suggest the CIA was aware of this, but believed that if the intention was malevolent that Iraq lacked the capabilities to realise that ambition and turn it into a weapon. However, this would not likely be the case as spying upon private medical exchanges would be a violation of several laws and considering how often exchanges like that took place between institutions it's unlikely they would have believed anything would be different about this one.

The rest I won't even bother with, thats just insulting.
No we literally sold him surplus shells in our arsenal. This is what the USSR and USA were doing during the Cold War when they agreed to get rid of their chemical and biological weapons they were selling them or giving them away for third world nations to use. You also have nothing to add because you are out of your intellectual depth and your nationalist wankery can't stand to admit America is a giant dick in the Foreign Policy department. Get over it.

Edited by CommissarRykov, Jun 21 2012 - 03:07.


guywitn0life #18 Posted Jun 21 2012 - 04:00

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The account also states that the round went thru the lower glacis and ignighted ammo under the turret.

The TIger and Tiger II did not have ammo under the turret.

The Paner IV, however, did.

No encounter between T26E1-1 and a Tiger II ever took place. Period.

Teddy_Bear #19 Posted Jun 22 2012 - 09:26

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View PostCommissarRykov, on Jun 21 2012 - 03:06, said:

No we literally sold him surplus shells in our arsenal. This is what the USSR and USA were doing during the Cold War when they agreed to get rid of their chemical and biological weapons they were selling them or giving them away for third world nations to use. You also have nothing to add because you are out of your intellectual depth and your nationalist wankery can't stand to admit America is a giant dick in the Foreign Policy department. Get over it.


Believe what you want, it's impossible to try and inform someone of an event if they already have their mind made up.

thejoker91 #20 Posted Jun 22 2012 - 17:28

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View Postmaxman1, on Jun 13 2012 - 21:55, said:

The tank was destroyed by an exploson of the ammo rack below the turret, which could cause some difficulty in identification.

It's even questionable if it even was a tank to begin with.

There is also a very real possibility that it was a gun emplacement and an ammo bin.



Ammo rack explosion under the turret means Panzer IV. KT and Tiger had ammo rack on the sides and back turret, only PZ IV had ammo under the turret.




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