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The Last Classic War


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The_Chieftain #1 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 13:40

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Entering Op-Ed mode for this one.

Thirty years ago today, General Menendez signed the terms surrendering the Argentine forces on the Falkland Islands,and bringing an end to a very nasty and violent conflict. Now, the origins of the war are hotly disputed, I’m sure many Argentines reading this as they’re on the NA server have a pretty much similar opinion to the British ownership of the islands to some Irishmen talking about Northern Ireland. For my purposes, and I’d wager for the purposes of the 649 Argentine and 255 British servicemen, and one Falkland Island civilian, it doesn’t really matter and I don’t care to get into that part of things. What I do care about is that I consider to be the last ‘classic’ war and it deserves study.

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ForcestormX #2 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 14:08

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Yes, 1973 would merit its own article.

Interesting stuff though, I know I've neglected to study the Falklands.

Spanisharmada #3 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 14:17

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I think Ill read more about it, very interesting topic chief +1! :Smile_Default:

Eyro #4 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 14:19

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I recall from 10th grade my Social Studies teacher, who was from the UK, was actually drafted because the military thought they would need more men. It ended before he had to go though, but it shows how much of a threat the Argentine were.

thegreenbaron #5 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 14:24

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It was a very interesting little war.  Sadly, the US Navy does not appear to have been much of a student of this war, making many of the same design mistakes in it's current generation of warships as the English made at the time (aluminum burns, and you WILL be hit by something in a serious conflict at sea, no matter how good air support is).

Spiley_Craw #6 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 14:37

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Argentina was not a first-rate power. They had a reasonably modern military, but to argue that it was "first-rate" is laughable.

A case can even be made that the UK wasn't either, however it was certainly more first-rate than Argentina.

Quite an interesting war though. I remember following it avidly at the time.
-Kle.

Movodor #7 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:08

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Please let us keep the argentine/UK nationalist fights out of a thread of which the content should be considered carefully ^^

Eliminateur #8 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:08

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i've talked with some vets of the war(air force and army) about what they had to do and the tech difference was abysmal:
the AR planes did not have warning lights, they did not know they where painted by radar or getting missile locked, the pilotsflew at sea level scraping the waves and between them to avoid ship search radar and skip bombs to the hulls of british warships, sometimes they got shotdown all the sudden with no warning (ship AA) and 1 out of 3 planes reached the targets.
In the best cases they carried Exocet missiles which proved very effective.
the AR pilots had simply "balls of steel" by flying an essentially "analog" jet fighter.
(and the torpedo snafu...., that was facepalm).
The UK also never admitted that the carrier HMS Invincible got struck by an exocet and had to leave for britain smoking and listed (there is a photo of it sailing very listed) as it would have been too embarrasing that their "flagship" got missiled

Chieftain, you could also mention how the carrier 25 de mayo never left port due to fear of being sunk.
There was also sub-warfare albeit limited(limited to the war crime of the  UK sinking a troopship -the Belgrano- outside the exclusion radius....)

The glamorgan sinking was epic, it was shot from a excavator after the army engineers hacked the exocet guidance system to accept it being fired ground to ground.

The tales of the army and conscripted guys are also pretty terrible, the AR army was underfed, underclothed(they where freezing to death, lost lots of limbs due to frostbite), undergunned(with obsolete bolt action rifles) and with lots of 18 year old kids who had no idea why they where there, i remember one tale of a big soldier (soldier gorilla was called, no joke!) that gut-dove into a grenade to protect their platoon, several stuff like that....

Dockmaster #9 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:11

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One statement about Argentinian pilots that has stuck with me all these years. I can't remember who said it.

"Any country that can produce world class Formula 1 drivers should not surprise you by producing world class combat pilots."

If the Argentines should be proud of anything they should be proud of their combat pilots.

Sword_of_Light #10 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:13

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One thing I recall hearing about this war - though I may be wrong about this, since such a thing may have occured in Afghanistan or Iraq - the Falklands War marked the last time a platoon fixed baonettes and charged an enemy position.  I think I'd heard it in one of those History Channel type things, detailing weapons that radically altered how battles were fought, and the baonette was on the list.

-Don

thejoker91 #11 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:17

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View PostDockmaster, on Jun 14 2012 - 15:11, said:

One statement about Argentinian pilots that has stuck with me all these years. I can't remember who said it.

"Any country that can produce world class Formula 1 drivers should not surprise you by producing world class combat pilots."

If the Argentines should be proud of anything they should be proud of their combat pilots.

We are. We are.


The one thing I will always remember was argentine engineers managing to score a hit on Glamorgan with land-fired Exocet from the "Shitty shooting station (Instalacion de tiro berreta in spanish, actual name given to the thing by the engineers who made it in the islands.)

whukid #12 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:28

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Are you planning on featuring the Golan or the Sinai in the 1973 "Chieftain's hatch"? I personally prefer the Golan, since it was more of a "David versus Goliath" battle, but I'm excited either way :D

shivem #13 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:42

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An excellent and well thought out non biased atricle. Several of my seniors in the army served in the Falklands conflict as medics and all of them commented on the bravery that both sides showed and none of them will ever forget the time they spent  there.
I look forward to reading the next article :)

SBSimjon #14 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:50

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View PostEliminateur, on Jun 14 2012 - 15:08, said:


There was also sub-warfare albeit limited(limited to the war crime of the  UK sinking a troopship -the Belgrano- outside the exclusion radius....)


Though the ship was outside the 200-mile (370 km) exclusion zone, both sides understood that this was no longer the limit of British action—on 23 April a message was passed via the Swiss Embassy in Buenos Aires to the Argentine government, it read:


In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty's Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. In this connection Her Majesty's Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.

Interviews conducted by Martin Middlebrook for his book, The Fight For The Malvinas, indicated that Argentine Naval officers understood the intent of the message was to indicate that any ships operating near the exclusion zone could be attacked. Argentine Rear Admiral Allara, who was in charge of the task force that the Belgrano was part of, said "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano".

In late 2011, David Thorp, a former military intelligence officer who led the signals intercept team aboard HMS Intrepid, released the book The Silent Listener detailing the role of intelligence in the Falklands War. The book revealed that despite the fact that the Belgrano was observed by the Conqueror sailing away from the Falklands at the time of the attack, it had actually been ordered to proceed to a rendezvous point within the Exclusion Zone, to engage in a pincer attack. A report prepared by Thorp for Thatcher several months after the incident stated the destination of the vessel was not to her home port as the Argentine Junta stated; the report was not released because the Prime Minister did not want to compromise British signals intelligence capabilities.

You Pays your money, you takes your chance....

SBSimjon #15 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 15:59

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View PostEliminateur, on Jun 14 2012 - 15:08, said:


The UK also never admitted that the carrier HMS Invincible got struck by an exocet and had to leave for britain smoking and listed (there is a photo of it sailing very listed) as it would have been too embarrasing that their "flagship" got missiled


Yeah, we secretly built and commissioned a replacement, and no-one noticed, not even the families of all the sailors, airmen and soldiers who were on it when it went down.
Typical claptrap.

Just like the claims of nuclear-armed subs being down in the South Atlantic by sabre-rattling presidents with big problems at home to hide.
Frankly if we wanted to drop of can of Liquid sunshine on BA, we could do it from about 200 yards outside the sub bases on the Clyde.... why put the assets at any risk?

Eliminateur #16 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 16:12

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As i've said, it didn't wnet down, it had to return to port damaged, it got severely damaged (an exocet won't sink a carrier, but will probably take it out of combat)

read better next time

Edited by Eliminateur, Jun 14 2012 - 16:13.


Heisenburg #17 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 16:13

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Interesting side note at he time both British and Argentinian soldiers used the same rifle. The FNFLA. The only difference being the Argentinians had a fully auto version. British higher ups not having trust that under fire her troops would practice proper fire control.

Edited by Heisenburg, Jun 14 2012 - 16:19.


Vollketten #18 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 16:14

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Jun 14 2012 - 13:40, said:

For my purposes, and I’d wager for the purposes of the 649 Argentine and 255 British servicemen, and one Falkland Island civilian

I believe 3 Falkland Islanders died.

SBSimjon #19 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 16:19

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Looked pretty good when it came back to the Solent with the rest of the fleet....
We must have a really useful floating dry-dock somewhere around Ascension...
My point re crew deaths still stands as well....   The UK wasn't under the control of a Fascist Junta that could make inconvenient people or facts disappear at that point.

Vollketten #20 Posted Jun 14 2012 - 16:26

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View PostEliminateur, on Jun 14 2012 - 15:08, said:

The UK also never admitted that the carrier HMS Invincible got struck by an exocet and had to leave for britain smoking and listed (there is a photo of it sailing very listed) as it would have been too embarrasing that their "flagship" got missiled

Chieftain, you could also mention how the carrier 25 de mayo never left port due to fear of being sunk.
There was also sub-warfare albeit limited(limited to the war crime of the  UK sinking a troopship -the Belgrano- outside the exclusion radius....)

HMS Invincible was not hit-it is not true it was hit by an exocet.
Sinking of the Belgrano was not a war-crime. I suggest you read the memoirs of the Argentine Captain. The Belgrano was not out for a sight seeing trip. War is hell.
Try to keep your jingoism off the forum please.




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