18 replies to this topic

[skorpion777]

As we all know German guns in game are arguably some of the most useless or under powered. The in game values of German guns are an insult to the power of the real ones. There are some good German guns such as the one the StuG E-100 (Coming in 7.5) will have (2.5 RPM but can take down a tier 10 in 1.5 shots) and the guns on the Marder. The 88mm L/56 has 171mm of pen with APCR rounds and only 132 with regular AP. In a real life scenario you'd get upwards of 150-160mm of penetration with normal AP rounds. With special rounds loaded *Provided they were existant, im not a expert on shells* you could get at least 170mm of penetration. That's some dangerous stuff right there, and if you managed to get into an IS-2 you still weren't safe, that 122mm might seem dangerous but when its not as accurate as a 88 then you are screwed. Tiger's and even Panzer's were dangerous to stumble upon.


With the original Panzer IV you had a 75mm gun that shoots at a high velocity, about 136mm of penetration with real life values (L/48). In game its bopped down to 106 at average. The 75mm L/70 would sling shells at a penetration level of 171mm. THAT is horribly overpowered compared to the penetration of the in game L/70 -Only 138mm of penetration on average. I know that if we have a PzIV running around with that kind of firepower its clearly OP, but the Panther's IRL would carry this dangerous gun. The stock Panther in game is a joke, and even with it fully upgraded its just too easy to take down. These beasts would be roflstomping the crap out of anything it saw, unless you had about a 5v1 scenario. If you had a few KT's or maybe even just 1, then you would be slinging shells all day at the bad guys and wouldn't have to worry about not penetrating.


Now with the KT, the guns don't get good until the long 105. The original gun on the Tiger II was the 88mm L/71, which had a whopping 260mm of penetration. In game? Its got about 203. That's massive weaksauce right there, and the long 105 has only 225mm of pen. which is much less than the KT's original RL gun. If the ROF of all German guns were nerfed by about .7-1 RPM and the gun penetration boosted by about 20mm each, we'd actually have some usable German guns. Now I know that all the guns in game are bumped down slightly for each country to level out the playing field, but lets compare 3 tier 7 guns for tier 6 tanks.

KV-1S: 122mm - 175mm of pen.
M-18: 90mm - 160mm of pen.
VK3601H 88mm - 132mm of pen.


The KV-1S and M-18 have a huge advantage over the VK3601 in terms of penetration and damage. Now here's where the ideas come in. Give the German guns more penetration. Simple as that - no damage buff needed as they are already fine in that department. For the 88mm on the VK/Tiger H (and every other tank that carries the same 88mm) we could buff that up to 150mm of penetration. For the PzIV we can remove the L/70 and buff that to 160mm of penetration and give the Panther a shorter 75mm then replace the long 75 with the original stock 75 L/70. For the KT we can take the existing guns such as the first 105 and keep it as is, but buff the damage. On the 2nd 105 we can buff it up to 280mm of pen and give the stock gun about 260mm of pen. For the long 88 on the Tiger H lets say keep it at the same damage but buff the pen to 245mm of pen. As for the other German guns they are fine. In all its the middle tier guns that are really underperforming. As for the Maus and E-100 those two tanks are a whole new story together. Both of them need major buffs and even then, its highly unlikely WG will do it.



Discusseth thine thread.

[ehetzel]

The short 88 could use a penetration buff, the long 88 is actually fine. 150-160 sounds reasonable, prolly not to the devs though. The long 88 has pretty good penetration, best stock gun on a Tier 8. 260 penetration, would be, outright OP.

[ehetzel]

The 12.8 NEEDS a penetration buff, the E-75 having the lowest penning top gun of all the tier 9's. An increase of just 10 would help greatly.

[Commander_Apollo]

And the 88s should atleast have a RoF of 15 and the Russian 122 should have a RoF of 2-4.

[KnightFandragon]

German guns should, since they are supposedly the "snipers" of this game see both a pen buff and an accuracy/dispersion and aim time buff with low Alpha and decent RoF.  Their RoF in game isnt that poor, but thier penetration sure is slacking on all fronts.

75 L48: 135Pen, 0.3acc, 2.0Aim Time
75 L70: 180Pen, 0.28acc, 2.0AT
88 L56: 160Pen, 0.3acc, 2.0AT
88 L71: 220Pen, 0.27acc, 1.7AT

The 105s Idk their reallife values enough to give any possible buffs here, but their accuracy seems alot worse then it should be...

[flamino_j]

I am really not sure. The Germans seem fine to me, so do most of the other tanks in the game. I think the developers did a fine job of balaning, nerfing, and buffing all the tanks in WoT... though I sort of dislike the power of the BatChat arty, not that I'm complaining that arty is OP or anything.

[Khanka]

I think just the 12.8 needs a penetration buff.
Otherwise they're fine.

[cheesellama]

 Khanka, on Jul 29 2012 - 23:18, said:

I think just the 12.8 needs a penetration buff.
Otherwise they're fine.

Same.

[Wenkel]

I'll be the first to admit that I did not read the whole post.  However, the Russian top tiers are doing statistically much worse, the Russians just got a mid tier nerf, and I think that they need buffalo or at least changes first.  That said, the mid tier German 88 should be buffed up to something like 150-170 penetration.  The 15 cm on the E100 could also use a small pen buff but not a very large one.

[Virsteinn]

The earlier guns, such as those on the Leopard and the PzIII, definitely need a pen buff. It's a pain in the ass trying to fight, say, a KV, when you can't even pen it from the back with the best penning gun.

[KnightFandragon]

 flamino_j, on Jul 29 2012 - 23:16, said:

I am really not sure. The Germans seem fine to me, so do most of the other tanks in the game. I think the developers did a fine job of balaning, nerfing, and buffing all the tanks in WoT... though I sort of dislike the power of the BatChat arty, not that I'm complaining that arty is OP or anything.

The Batshit arty is OP.....

[Dissidence]

From an earlier (edited) post of mine:

Quote

Here are the pen values I'd like to see (I don't suggest changing damage) changed for the following guns only:
88 L/56: 142
75 L/70: 158
75 L/48: 126 (Edit: 130)
75 L/43: 108
50 L/60: 82 (Note: no change to the L/42 so no unbalancing of the PzIIIA)

Additionally the following changes (excluding premium tanks):
88 L/56 mountable by: Tiger, Tiger (P), Panther, Panther II, VK3001H, VK3601H, VK3001P, VK3002DB, VK4502A (KwK); JagdpzIV, Jagdpanther (PaK)
75 L/70 mountable by: Panther, Panther II, PzIV, E-50, VK3001H, VK3601H, VK3001P, VK3002DB (KwK); Jagdpz IV, Jagdpanther, StuG III (StuK)
75 L/48 mountable by: PzIV, PzIII/IV, VK2801, VK3001H, VK3601H, VK3001P, VK3002DB (KwK); Hetzer, StuG III, JagdpzIV (StuH)
75 L/43 mountable by: PzIV, PzIII/IV, VK2801, VK3001H (KwK); Hetzer, StuG III (StuK)
50 L/60 mountable by: PzIII, Pz38nA, VK1602 Leopard, VK2801, PzIV (KwK); Panzerjager I, Marder II (PaK)

E-50 new stock gun is the 75 L/100. Tiger and Tiger (P) new stock gun is the 88 L/56. VK3001H stock gun is the 75 L/48.

This makes the German tanks better "snipers" and attackers without buffing their DPM or armor in any way. While not the historic values, it keeps affected tanks in balance for their tiers with a few changes:
-Hetzer gets very high pen, but this can be negated by lowering its RoF with the gun. Also the Hetzer plays very well with the 105mm derp gun which would see no changes, I doubt this would be a very large change.
-PzIII, VK1602 Leopard, and Pz38nA are helped a lot....all of which badly needs more than 67 pen at Tier 4.
-PzIV and StuG III lose 12 (Edit: 8) pen. They can get buffs to mobility (Edit: acceleration, passability) (PzIV with Schmalturm) and HP (StuGIII) to offset.
-The VK's, the stock Panther, PzIII, and JagdPzIV are helped in badly needed ways. VK2801 in particular is now more on par with the Chaffee and AMX12t. Since T-50-2 will be replaced at some point, this is fine. To offset, HP can be reduced on the Tier 6 VK's, except the 3001P which is weakest as is and needs some advantage, after all.
-Changes to the gun tree also help the Tiger and Tiger (P) be good until their top guns are researched. As far as I know Tigers never mounted 75mm guns. The E-50 stock gun change and VK3001H stock gun changes are mostly cosmetic, but it's silly they should be possibly so undergunned stock (granted, their better guns should have been researched well in advance..)
-Panzerjager I is nerfed by not being able to mount the 50 L/60. This can be offset by upping its track traverse. The 62/60 of the 47mm AP round is still plenty for that tier.

[Speedycake582]

it is only the 75mm L/70 and 88mm L/56 that need buffing i reckon along with the 12.8 and 15cm as its basicly the T6 german tanks that suffer through horribad matchmaking and weaponry if the devs wont buff the 56 and 70 then they should atleast look at adding a T7 gun to the T6s that actually has more than 132-138mm penetration say in the ranges of 150-165mm penetration because the VK3000 grinds are right pains in the arse

[Dissidence]

 Speedycake582, on Jul 31 2012 - 06:48, said:

it is only the 75mm L/70 and 88mm L/56 that need buffing i reckon along with the 12.8 and 15cm as its basicly the T6 german tanks that suffer through horribad matchmaking and weaponry if the devs wont buff the 56 and 70 then they should atleast look at adding a T7 gun to the T6s that actually has more than 132-138mm penetration say in the ranges of 150-165mm penetration because the VK3000 grinds are right pains in the arse

The 5cm gun on the Pz3 also needs a buff. 67 pen at Tier 4 for a medium tank is too low.

[rinying]

you buff my tiger P's long 88mm pen, itll kill EVERYTHING. it already kills t10s....

[LoooSeR78V]

 skorpion777, on Jul 29 2012 - 22:58, said:

....
KV-1S: 122mm - 175mm of pen.
M-18: 90mm - 160mm of pen.
VK3601H 88mm - 132mm of pen.
....

Did you noticed that KV-1S is heavy, M18 is TD and VK36 is medium tank. Medium tanks usualy have weapons with power about same as heavy tank 1 tier lower. TD should have better cannon than meds at least, KV-1S is heavy, they usualy have good gun for it's tier.

Edited by LoooSeR78V, Jul 31 2012 - 07:54.

[KampfyKouch]

 LoooSeR78V, on Jul 31 2012 - 07:48, said:

Did you noticed that KV-1S is heavy, M18 is TD and VK36 is medium tank. Medium tanks usualy have weapons with power about same as heavy tank 1 tier lower. TD should have better cannon than meds at least, KV-1S is heavy, they usualy have good gun for it's tier.

Not to mention the 122mm's caliber is higher as well as the relative cost (around 4-6 times higher than that of the short 88, not exactly sure since I don't have it, but my friend says the long 88 costs around 250 per round). What the OP's asking for is the same bang for much less buck. The American mediums are stuck with the same pen (110-120) from tier 4-6. While the Russians have generally better guns at the same tier (even after losing the D-10T on the medium line up to T-43), that's made up for the fact that those tanks are generally close range flankers with less armor than their german counterparts.

[skorpion777]

 LoooSeR78V, on Jul 31 2012 - 07:48, said:

Did you noticed that KV-1S is heavy, M18 is TD and VK36 is medium tank. Medium tanks usualy have weapons with power about same as heavy tank 1 tier lower. TD should have better cannon than meds at least, KV-1S is heavy, they usualy have good gun for it's tier.

Yes but the gun on the VK3601 transfers to the Tiger. The long 88 is the same thing except slightly more powerful. The gun on the KV-1S transfers over to the IS and can even go to the KV-3.

[TheDreadnought]

I think the pen on the long 88 is fine, it just needs a damage buff.  Even just bumping it from 240 to 260 would help.