57 replies to this topic

[PaoSan]

Well still gotta love these match with my amx 13 75 where you go against tier 10 and you are not even able to kill those tier 7-8 arties with a full drum Or when I flank some tanks and I do maybe 10 % of damage with 6 bullets ( all of them penetrate )

Edited by PaoSan, Aug 21 2012 - 13:27.

[poppavein]

 PaoSan, on Aug 21 2012 - 13:25, said:

Well still gotta love these match with my amx 13 75 where you go against tier 10 and you are not even able to kill those tier 7-8 arties with a full drum Or when I flank some tanks and I do maybe 10 % of damage with 6 bullets ( all of them penetrate )

Wait, are you trying to tell us that the current 13 75 is not as good at the pre-7.5 13 90 at the same tier?

Yeah, I would call that a nerf to the French tree.

[PaoSan]

Its not that they are not good ( Just got a top gun in a tier 9 match, got lucky arty was a easy ) Its just that when  WG makes a tank they make the tank to be equall withs its tier lets say design a tier 6 amx 13 75 well hes going to be good agains other tier 6 but if they boot it up 1 tier well even with the buffs the tank is missing its power to combat the other tier 7

[Netchel]

I finally sold my 12t.  I coudln't stand playing it after 7.5.  Eventually I will have to buy it back to progress down the french lines, but the french lights are so underpowered after the ELC.

[Fodder]

 Netchel, on Aug 22 2012 - 22:15, said:

I finally sold my 12t.  I coudln't stand playing it after 7.5.  Eventually I will have to buy it back to progress down the french lines, but the french lights are so underpowered after the ELC.

Don't blame you, the 12t is BRUTAL.  I'm stuck with 50k xp on mine, was trying to unlock the tier6 arty.. I should have gotten then tier5 one before 7.5 :(.

[iadreamer]

For me, the changes in the 12T in 7.5 have made this tank simply shine!  I have been having a terrific time in it, better than when the 13/75 was tier 6.  I bought it again just to get the ELC, but am now leaning towards making it a keeper.  Maybe it just matches my playstyle.

For the 13/75...not so much.  I'll probably sell it and concentrate on the 13/90.

[DestrosFist]

 Netchel, on Aug 22 2012 - 22:15, said:

I finally sold my 12t.  I coudln't stand playing it after 7.5.  Eventually I will have to buy it back to progress down the french lines, but the french lights are so underpowered after the ELC.

Agreed.  I can't even use the 12t anymore.  It sits in my garage collecting dust.

[Ostertallninny]

 bombastinator, on Aug 08 2012 - 00:48, said:

12t doesn't even belong in tier 8.  The gun just doesn't do enough damage to matter.  Sure it can pen, but 5% damage per hit?  Really?  People think auto-loaders are awesome, but i find it merely annoying.  It only shoots as fast as a chruchill when the gun is loaded, and it does about the same damage.  It's not a very fast or stealthy scout, and the supposed advantage of the gun simply disappears in high tier fights.  A bit more alpha, and they would have an argument, but the thing is flat out weaker in every single way than the elc, and it gets effectively the same teiring.  More apha and I could see it, but as is it's a worthless vehicle except in low tier fights.  If the gun had more alpha balanced with a longer reload, it would make sense as a vehicle, but right now, the autoloader is IMHO a waste of time.  The gun worked inthe old 1375 because the vehicle was a good deal faster.  It could asctually deep pen scout.  The 12t can't.  it doesn't have the acceleration, even as a peekaboom vehicle it fails.

Then you sir GTFO of the french light tree. Solved.

[Ostertallninny]

I actually really like tier 10 rounds in this thing. I made a Poor T95 driver very sad as I pumped round after round into his tracks allowing arty to get a hit on him. YOu can actually circle anything in a tier 10 match if tracked. I also love chasing down bats with 20% health. Because I know that is when I can kill them. I actually put the hurt on a IS-7 driver today. Unloaded 4 of my 6 rounds into his side. all of them penned for damage and I was able to get the kill.

[PaoSan]

 Ostertallninny, on Aug 24 2012 - 21:10, said:

I actually really like tier 10 rounds in this thing. I made a Poor T95 driver very sad as I pumped round after round into his tracks allowing arty to get a hit on him. YOu can actually circle anything in a tier 10 match if tracked. I also love chasing down bats with 20% health. Because I know that is when I can kill them. I actually put the hurt on a IS-7 driver today. Unloaded 4 of my 6 rounds into his side. all of them penned for damage and I was able to get the kill.

Yeah that can work when the t95 goes alone but if there is a teamate next to him trust me the t95 wont need to worry nothing from you little thing

[Togashi_Yuuta]

I don't think the 12t is bad because of the matches that you could get with it. (long story warning)
I first got up to the 12t on the 3 day of the french tanks patch. It was a fun tank then, but I was a sucky player back then and Did not do that well. However I think that this buff to its tier has helped it more then anything. Back then it's auto-loader was more of a gimmick then something that helped you. Almost every match in it was with t5's and t6's. You could shoot faster then most, but only by a few ms each time. Of course the drum reloads are quick but it is still 15 seconds that you can not shoot in, combined with only 400hp would often be the death of you. After playing only 50 matches, I sold it as a loss. Recently I got back into it on one of these insane whims. I guess I was really insane as I love this tank a lot. Before yesterday, I had only  50~ matches with 13 kills  and a win rate of 49%(Probably better then most of my win rates at that time). Now today I have 90~ battles played and have got my win rate up to 60%. What is so much better then before is that it is actually fighting tanks that are slower. Most of the tanks In the tier 7+ bracket have guns that take longer then 4 to reload. That give you more time to get into a weak spot in your opponents flank. The improved gun does help when fighting some of the tougher tanks. The only tank that gave me trouble was the t150 which bounced 3 rounds off the back of its turret. The main weakness of this tank is that it take a while to get up to speed. if you are going to get a target, you need to ether stop, circle them, or do a few passes on them. Stop often works if there is only one target, However don't do it if  you think there maybe more then one. Circling helps in most of the situations but you do lose some speed when you leave the circle of doom. It is better to get off a few round then to commit to one target and lose too much speed. It is this speed in which keeps you alive. Though I have not played the 13 75, I think it would be able to accelerate faster allowing it to get out of danger even when committed to a target unlike the 12t. For those who say that the 12t and 13,75 are too slow, you must be using it wrong as even if you could get the extra speed, it would not make enough difference to save you. You have a good gun, You can hurt anything but a Maus, even then it might be able to be done.
TL:DR, The 12t is Better with the higher tiered matching as most of the targets are slower. Its only weakness is that once you commit to a target, you wont be able to escape effectively do to the slower acceleration. The 13 75 should be better as it will have better acceleration to get out of of the times when you fall into a trap. Both have enough speed to work as tank killers and fast flankers. Most impotently I am enjoying them for what they are.

[bombastinator]

 kanami314, on Aug 25 2012 - 20:49, said:

I don't think the 12t is bad because of the matches that you could get with it. (long story warning)
I first got up to the 12t on the 3 day of the french tanks patch. It was a fun tank then, but I was a sucky player back then and Did not do that well. However I think that this buff to its tier has helped it more then anything. Back then it's auto-loader was more of a gimmick then something that helped you. Almost every match in it was with t5's and t6's. You could shoot faster then most, but only by a few ms each time. Of course the drum reloads are quick but it is still 15 seconds that you can not shoot in, combined with only 400hp would often be the death of you. After playing only 50 matches, I sold it as a loss. Recently I got back into it on one of these insane whims. I guess I was really insane as I love this tank a lot. Before yesterday, I had only  50~ matches with 13 kills  and a win rate of 49%(Probably better then most of my win rates at that time). Now today I have 90~ battles played and have got my win rate up to 60%. What is so much better then before is that it is actually fighting tanks that are slower. Most of the tanks In the tier 7+ bracket have guns that take longer then 4 to reload. That give you more time to get into a weak spot in your opponents flank. The improved gun does help when fighting some of the tougher tanks. The only tank that gave me trouble was the t150 which bounced 3 rounds off the back of its turret. The main weakness of this tank is that it take a while to get up to speed. if you are going to get a target, you need to ether stop, circle them, or do a few passes on them. Stop often works if there is only one target, However don't do it if  you think there maybe more then one. Circling helps in most of the situations but you do lose some speed when you leave the circle of doom. It is better to get off a few round then to commit to one target and lose too much speed. It is this speed in which keeps you alive. Though I have not played the 13 75, I think it would be able to accelerate faster allowing it to get out of danger even when committed to a target unlike the 12t. For those who say that the 12t and 13,75 are too slow, you must be using it wrong as even if you could get the extra speed, it would not make enough difference to save you. You have a good gun, You can hurt anything but a Maus, even then it might be able to be done.
TL:DR, The 12t is Better with the higher tiered matching as most of the targets are slower. Its only weakness is that once you commit to a target, you wont be able to escape effectively do to the slower acceleration. The 13 75 should be better as it will have better acceleration to get out of of the times when you fall into a trap. Both have enough speed to work as tank killers and fast flankers. Most impotently I am enjoying them for what they are.

So you play better in it now than you did then.  So it must be better.  What if it;s you that;s better?

I picked up the 12t a few weeks before the great nerfing, but I had been playing a while before that.  My experience was totally different.  The tank wasn't a total monster, but it definitely had skills, and I was getting really good wint rates int it.  Something like 60%  After the great nerfing that completely changed.  By the time i got out my win rate was down to 51% and I was looking at maybe another hundred games to finish the tank at the xp/game level I was making.  That wouldn't be that bad except I was almost done with the tank.  65 games to fully upgrade and get more than half way through the next tank, then 100 to finish it WTF?  The server average win rate for the 12t has been dropping by the day,  The top win rate for the thing is now 54%. according to Wot-news. (which means you're better than the best players in the game who play this tank)  I don't even have an ace tanker in the thing.   I used to have a below average score.  Now I have an above average one.  If I'd been wise and tossed it the day of the nerf I'd have one of the best scores on the server. (I am not a good player btw.  Average at best)

The vehicle's quality loss is emperically provable.  In all fairness it did need a bit of a nerf.  But it certainly didn't need one of the size it got IMHO.

as for the enough speed comment, you already admitted that the 12t doesn't have enough speed to avoid being killed in the previous paragraph, and people aren't complaining about the speed nearly as much as the gun alpha.  It can't BE a tank killer, because it can't do enough damage to actually kill a tank.

Edited by bombastinator, Aug 26 2012 - 05:05.

[Togashi_Yuuta]

 bombastinator, on Aug 26 2012 - 04:55, said:

So you play better in it now than you did then.  So it must be better.  What if it;s you that;s better?

I picked up the 12t a few weeks before the great nerfing, but I had been playing a while before that.  My experience was totally different.  The tank wasn't a total monster, but it definitely had skills, and I was getting really good wint rates int it.  Something like 60%  After the great nerfing that completely changed.  By the time i got out my win rate was down to 51% and I was looking at maybe another hundred games to finish the tank at the xp/game level I was making.  That wouldn't be that bad except I was almost done with the tank.  65 games to fully upgrade and get more than half way through the next tank, then 100 to finish it WTF?  The server average win rate for the 12t has been dropping by the day,  The top win rate for the thing is now 54%. according to Wot-news. (which means you're better than the best players in the game who play this tank)  I don't even have an ace tanker in the thing.   I used to have a below average score.  Now I have an above average one.  If I'd been wise and tossed it the day of the nerf I'd have one of the best scores on the server. (I am not a good player btw.  Average at best)

The vehicle's quality loss is emperically provable.  In all fairness it did need a bit of a nerf.  But it certainly didn't need one of the size it got IMHO.

as for the enough speed comment, you already admitted that the 12t doesn't have enough speed to avoid being killed in the previous paragraph, and people aren't complaining about the speed nearly as much as the gun alpha.  It can't BE a tank killer, because it can't do enough damage to actually kill a tank.

I don't think that I am that good,  As far as speed goes, no tank in this game can out run a bullet, however you can out run the turret turning speed of most tanks and even circle of doom most tanks very well, The problem with the 12t is that once you are in the circle of doom, you become committed to fighting that tank as you would not be able to break away from it with out giving it free shots. I will be honest that this tank would not be able to kill most tanks in one clip, The thing was that it only could just kill tanks at its tier at the tier 5. The amx 12t's job is to get a few guns off of your heavys. That is to be a rodeo clown some of the time. if there is a t32 on the end of the road holding back a heavy by forcing a shoot out, I will run around the side of that t32 and shoot him up. most of the time he will turn to face me(at least his turret) and allow for my friend in his heavy to come up and pick up the kill. Or if there is a hidden heavy that could hurt my team, I would run a zig zag near his location and spot him, then circle of doom him till he is dead. I am not single handedly killing tanks because that is not my job, However getting them to die is.

[bombastinator]

 kanami314, on Aug 26 2012 - 06:09, said:

I don't think that I am that good,  

easy enough to check.  Hit the wot-news site and check your efficiency and advanced statistics http://wot-news.com/.../stat/single/us  The key feature though is how much you have improved as a player since the last time you played the tank.

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As far as speed goes, no tank in this game can out run a bullet, however you can out run the turret turning speed of most tanks and even circle of doom most tanks very well, The problem with the 12t is that once you are in the circle of doom, you become committed to fighting that tank as you would not be able to break away from it with out giving it free shots. I will be honest that this tank would not be able to kill most tanks in one clip,

which is my point.  You can't kill or even cripple the tank, you can't run away and the reload is long.  put those 3 together and you get suicide.

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The thing was that it only could just kill tanks at its tier at the tier 5.

and the same is true now.  The difference is that with the new compressed MM they don't see any of those tanks anymore

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The amx 12t's job is to get a few guns off of your heavys. That is to be a rodeo clown some of the time.

This is referred to as "bait" in the tutorials.  Your claim that the primary use of the 12t is as bait does not strengthen your case nearly as much as it does mine.

Quote

if there is a t32 on the end of the road holding back a heavy by forcing a shoot out, I will run around the side of that t32 and shoot him up. most of the time he will turn to face me(at least his turret) and allow for my friend in his heavy to come up and pick up the kill. Or if there is a hidden heavy that could hurt my team, I would run a zig zag near his location and spot him, then circle of doom him till he is dead. I am not single handedly killing tanks because that is not my job, However getting them to die is.

what you have just described is the role of a tier 4 scout tank.  In a tier 6 vehicle.

Edited by bombastinator, Aug 26 2012 - 06:40.

[DestrosFist]

I sold my ELC, which most people seem to like and after a long learning curve actually really like the 12t now.  Also just got the 13 75 and like it too.  I can't stand the dispersion and LOOOONG aiming time on the ELC, even with 100% crew, GLD and vents. Keeping the 12t and having a blast with it.  Ill get my first arty with it too.

My updated $.02

[dambo150]

The tank is good, the MM for the tank is what sucks, let's analyse it:
12t gets thrown in tier VIII, IX and X battles, and with a lot of luck and the smile of the gods of WoT, you can get in a tier VII battle.
Other tanks in tier VI with good performance:
KV-1s: Gets to battle agains tier IV, even with that 122mm gun that decimates everything it faces (yes, even tier VIII hevy tanks).
Ez8: Good flanking tank, RoF of the gun is heavenly (even better than 12t that has to reload after 6 shots), only gets up to tier VIII when the WoT gods shit on the tank, if not, it's beast in any fight.
list goes on, blablabla, good tanks with good thingies fighting tier V, VI and VII all the time.
So, what's the point? The point is, every single tank in tier VI is a good tank, a huge advance from tier V, but, the 12t, is always underpowered, because it has to face the best tanks in the game, let me put this in perspective:
Any tier X and some IX TD's (even the ISU-152 tier VIII) will 1 shot the 12t.
Some of the tier 10 heavy tanks can 1 shot the 12t.
Any hit from tanks tier VIII and up can and will damage one or several modules upon a hit, and off course, rip apart 65% of your health.
A tier VI tank that is a good tank for it's tier, but gets thrown against the best tanks in the game, will underperform sooner or later, if it's not underperfoming already, the devs will overlook it for a couple of patchs, but maybe they will fix it, and at that point it will be too late to fix the bad reputation the tank is creating by fighting tier X tanks.

[KiloZulu]

For some more perspective, consider that the every French tank from the 12t up gets put into tier 10 battles.  Each progressive tier in the French line improves the survivability or power of the line because they will also only face tier 10 battles.  From the moment you get into the AMX 12t, the only thing you can possibly desire is to get out of it as quickly as possible, and move onto something that can actually compete with the enemy you have to face.

[KiloZulu]

 Netchel, on Aug 22 2012 - 22:15, said:

I finally sold my 12t.  I coudln't stand playing it after 7.5.  Eventually I will have to buy it back to progress down the french lines, but the french lights are so underpowered after the ELC.

You know, I think I'm going to sell mine, too.  I worked my way up through the line to the AMX 12t back when the French line first came out, but sold it then because the gun elevation was just too limited.  I bought it a couple of weeks ago when I learned that they had improved the elevation.  I've held onto it as long as I have this time because I invested a lot of silver and gold in it. In the back of my mind, I knew I didn't want to have to buy it a third time when they finally realize it needs more balance and act on it.

I've spent the week just getting the crap beat out of me with the thing, and have been lucky if I even get my x2 bonus before it reset for a new day.  This tank is beyond my ability to grasp, it seems, and it's time to move on.  I'm just not that masochistic.