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Darkstaer #1 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:13

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Hi Everyone,

Well, I just wanted to say the XVM does not really gauge how good someone is. I had an average rating, but then I got in about 20+ straight games where people just ran forward and died; they did not support each other nor used any sort of teamwork. Therefore, I usually got destroyed very quickly. Then in my last game, someone using the Mod. said to me, "Wow, you have a low rating." Really, because I had an average one that I was trying to improve upon, but now I will have a hard time getting it back to where I started from.

I really like the game, and I play to have fun, but I have seen this type of thing before in other games. Specifically, it's dubious at best when people use Mods to determine the "good players" from the "bad ones". There are simply too many factors you can't control that really makes a Mod like XVM very ill suited in ranking peoples skill.

In any case, my 2 cents. In the end, it really is a very fun game to play!

Good Tanking to everyone.

PanzerSudamerikaner #2 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:18

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I dont like this Mod, this must be removed, cuz the fun in ramdoms is because are "ramdom".

I not use this.

Znath #3 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:28

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XVM and this scenario are a good example of the damage mods like this are doing to the game.
-it makes kids over confident with information they otherwise can't obtain fairly during battle
-allows trolling and namecalling, insults, etc
-generates an unfair advantage due to all this information

WG needs to start cracking down on some of these mods.  They're doing more damage to the game than helping the minority of people that use them in the first place.  I think the game has advanced sufficiently to thge point where we don't need a lot of mods.

And  on top of that these are not the kinds of mods that will make the game look good or really help everyone.
They offer information in the game that can't be obtained as quickly and fairly as they can by any other player.  Mods before like hitpoint mods could be deduced by the player in the game by what addons the enemy tanks had.  These mods were made obsolete by WG just adding this info to the game.

I personally do not believe it is fair to have this level of information offered to players during the battle.  Thus I think WG should take steps to prevent mods like this importing stats and information unfairly into the battle.  In an actual battle you wouldn't be able to tell the talent of the enemy you face just by glancing at them, nor should you immediately be able to judge your opponent.

WG has the ability to shut off Skins on whim now due to the different method of storing and managing them.

I think it's time WG does something to regulate mods.

The_Millard #4 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:31

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:28, said:

The dumb thing just needs to be removed.
XVM and this scenario are a good example of the damage mods like this are doing to the game.
-it makes idiots over confident with information they otherwise can't obtain fairly during battle
-allows trolling and namecalling, insults, etc
-generates an unfair advantage due to all this information

WG needs to start cracking down on some of these mods.  They're doing more damage to the game than helping the minority of people that use them in the first place.  I think the game has advanced sufficiently to thge point where we don't need a lot of mods.

And  on top of that these are not the kinds of mods that will make the game look good or really help everyone.
They offer information in the game that can't be obtained as quickly and fairly as they can by any other player.  Mods before like hitpoint mods could be deduced by the player in the game by what addons the enemy tanks had.  These mods were made obsolete by WG just adding this info to the game.

I personally do not believe it is fair to have this level of information offered to players during the battle.  Thus I think WG should take steps to prevent mods like this importing stats and information unfairly into the battle.  In an actual battle you wouldn't be able to tell the talent of the enemy you face just by glancing at them, nor should you immediately be able to judge your opponent.

WG has the ability to shut off Skins on whim now due to the different method of storing and managing them.

I think it's time WG does something to regulate mods.

I don't understand what you're saying. You say it's unfair to have XVM be exclusive. But it's not exclusive.

Kewei #5 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:34

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Opinion on XVM differs, bad players tend to discredit it, but good players tend to give it some form of credit. I'm sure if someone checked on the stats of every reply in this topic they would find this sort of correlation.

I don't use XVM though, people told me it was depressing, and I prefer to have randomness or a platoonmate tell me who to aim for.

Edited by Kewei, Aug 05 2012 - 20:34.


ThatCrackRockSteadyBeat #6 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:43

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just got it recently, i like it alot. It allows me to know who on the team to count on and who on the other team I can count on to do something really really stupid. The win probability is dumb, but the individual player info is really helpful. If you see a kv5 with a 40% win ratio and terrible efficiency, you know you can probably bait him out into the open and pound r2d2. Why wouldn't someone want that edge?

I don't understand whining when it says you have a low win% or bad teammates or the other griefing type things. Though I do use it to tell mouthy terribad <45%ers to shut up.

Znath #7 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:53

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It's not exclusive, and - ing people for opinions is a little ridiculous, it's just how I see it, I'm not insulting anyone.
Sadly, people can't disagree or aren't allowed to without being attacked like that.  So I'll explain a little better why I see it that way if it helps.

The problem is the "average consumer" won't have it.
You shouldn't be able to offer an advantage through something like XVM that the average player won't have.  That's the problem.

I wouldn't consider myself a "bad player" I don't use it either.  I think it's both unnecessary and only benefits those who take unnecessary risks based  solely on the stats a computer throws out?  Like the OP shows, a gun does the same amount of damage no matter who shoots it.  If a stat tells you to make a stupid mistake and you get shot by a bad player.

To an experienced and skilled player, XVM doesn't really offer much benefit.  It's to the middle average player that is willing to judge a player based on the stats that can think "oh this guy is good, or this guy is bad I have to change my strategy".  I just assume everyone I'm against is going to be as good as me at least, if not better and faster.  It's when you make assumptions that your enemy is weaker is when you run into failure.

And players won't learn that if they have some program that tells them who's good and who's bad.
On top of that is the trolling factor XVM offers, it's not fair to players to be berated based on their stats that people can't easily look up during combat.

The game needs a level playing field for everyone, whether they're experienced or new.  There shouldn't be some back door to give people a leg up because they can or are able to mod up the game.  Sorry if you don't like that, but I just think everyone deserves the same gameplay and shouldn't have to run down some mod on the forums to have the same experience.

Peppr_Onei #8 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 20:58

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View PostElCapitan007, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:13, said:

Hi Everyone,

Well, I just wanted to say the XVM does not really gauge how good someone is. I had an average rating, but then I got in about 20+ straight games where people just ran forward and died; they did not support each other nor used any sort of teamwork. Therefore, I usually got destroyed very quickly. Then in my last game, someone using the Mod. said to me, "Wow, you have a low rating." Really, because I had an average one that I was trying to improve upon, but now I will have a hard time getting it back to where I started from.

I really like the game, and I play to have fun, but I have seen this type of thing before in other games. Specifically, it's dubious at best when people use Mods to determine the "good players" from the "bad ones". There are simply too many factors you can't control that really makes a Mod like XVM very ill suited in ranking peoples skill.

In any case, my 2 cents. In the end, it really is a very fun game to play!

Good Tanking to everyone.

You don't have a low rating because you had 20 bad matches.  You have a low rating because you do no damage and only kill an opponent every other match (323/Game Damage, .5 kills).  If you doubled just these 2 stats, you'd go from "bad" to "average" on XVM.

The_Millard #9 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:01

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:53, said:

It's not exclusive, and - ing people for opinions is a little ridiculous, it's just how I see it, I'm not insulting anyone.
Sadly, people can't disagree or aren't allowed to without being attacked like that.  So I'll explain a little better why I see it that way if it helps.

The problem is the "average consumer" won't have it.
You shouldn't be able to offer an advantage through something like XVM that the average player won't have.  That's the problem.

I wouldn't consider myself a "bad player" I don't use it either.  I think it's both unnecessary and only benefits those who take unnecessary risks based  solely on the stats a computer throws out?  Like the OP shows, a gun does the same amount of damage no matter who shoots it.  If a stat tells you to make a stupid mistake and you get shot by a bad player.

To an experienced and skilled player, XVM doesn't really offer much benefit.  It's to the middle average player that is willing to judge a player based on the stats that can think "oh this guy is good, or this guy is bad I have to change my strategy".  I just assume everyone I'm against is going to be as good as me at least, if not better and faster.  It's when you make assumptions that your enemy is weaker is when you run into failure.

And players won't learn that if they have some program that tells them who's good and who's bad.
On top of that is the trolling factor XVM offers, it's not fair to players to be berated based on their stats that people can't easily look up during combat.

The game needs a level playing field for everyone, whether they're experienced or new.  There shouldn't be some back door to give people a leg up because they can or are able to mod up the game.  Sorry if you don't like that, but I just think everyone deserves the same gameplay and shouldn't have to run down some mod on the forums to have the same experience.

Frankly I don't see XVM giving that big of a leg up. Bad players will continue to play badly with it. Good players may or may not use it to prioritize targets. Primarily when I ran it I used it to see if the PUGs I had with me would do anything or not.

Any advantage is purely user based not mod based.

smokey5543 #10 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:02

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:53, said:

It's not exclusive, and - ing people for opinions is a little ridiculous, it's just how I see it, I'm not insulting anyone.
Sadly, people can't disagree or aren't allowed to without being attacked like that.  So I'll explain a little better why I see it that way if it helps.

The problem is the "average consumer" won't have it.
You shouldn't be able to offer an advantage through something like XVM that the average player won't have.  That's the problem.

I wouldn't consider myself a "bad player" I don't use it either.  I think it's both unnecessary and only benefits those who take unnecessary risks based  solely on the stats a computer throws out?  Like the OP shows, a gun does the same amount of damage no matter who shoots it.  If a stat tells you to make a stupid mistake and you get shot by a bad player.

To an experienced and skilled player, XVM doesn't really offer much benefit.  It's to the middle average player that is willing to judge a player based on the stats that can think "oh this guy is good, or this guy is bad I have to change my strategy".  I just assume everyone I'm against is going to be as good as me at least, if not better and faster.  It's when you make assumptions that your enemy is weaker is when you run into failure.

And players won't learn that if they have some program that tells them who's good and who's bad.
On top of that is the trolling factor XVM offers, it's not fair to players to be berated based on their stats that people can't easily look up during combat.

The game needs a level playing field for everyone, whether they're experienced or new.  There shouldn't be some back door to give people a leg up because they can or are able to mod up the game.  Sorry if you don't like that, but I just think everyone deserves the same gameplay and shouldn't have to run down some mod on the forums to have the same experience.
mods give people advantages that ruin the game

Peppr_Onei #11 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:04

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:53, said:

It's not exclusive, and - ing people for opinions is a little ridiculous, it's just how I see it, I'm not insulting anyone.
Sadly, people can't disagree or aren't allowed to without being attacked like that.  So I'll explain a little better why I see it that way if it helps.

The problem is the "average consumer" won't have it.
You shouldn't be able to offer an advantage through something like XVM that the average player won't have.  That's the problem.

I wouldn't consider myself a "bad player" I don't use it either.  I think it's both unnecessary and only benefits those who take unnecessary risks based  solely on the stats a computer throws out?  Like the OP shows, a gun does the same amount of damage no matter who shoots it.  If a stat tells you to make a stupid mistake and you get shot by a bad player.

To an experienced and skilled player, XVM doesn't really offer much benefit.  It's to the middle average player that is willing to judge a player based on the stats that can think "oh this guy is good, or this guy is bad I have to change my strategy".  I just assume everyone I'm against is going to be as good as me at least, if not better and faster.  It's when you make assumptions that your enemy is weaker is when you run into failure.

And players won't learn that if they have some program that tells them who's good and who's bad.
On top of that is the trolling factor XVM offers, it's not fair to players to be berated based on their stats that people can't easily look up during combat.

The game needs a level playing field for everyone, whether they're experienced or new.  There shouldn't be some back door to give people a leg up because they can or are able to mod up the game.  Sorry if you don't like that, but I just think everyone deserves the same gameplay and shouldn't have to run down some mod on the forums to have the same experience.

The only way to do this is to have WOT remove stats.  The only benefit that XVM provides is that it collects all of the data without an extra click.

There are several reasons to use it...

1.  It allows you to see if the person screaming at people to follow him knows what he is doing.  When I was new I lost so many matches because of that, now if I troll a low level pub match and someone does that I can at least say "I'd ignore the guy with the 38% win rate" and it provides some incentive to stop the lemming rush.

2.  It provides some insight into how arty safe you need to play.  Nothing makes me cringe like seeing a purple name next to an arty.

3.  It allows you to prioritize targets to get high efficiency guys out of the way since there is no concept of focus fire in pubs.

Edited by Peppr_Onei, Aug 05 2012 - 21:05.


Kewei #12 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:05

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View Postsmokey5543, on Aug 05 2012 - 21:02, said:

mods give people advantages that ruin the game

I'm glad they added the battle count next to a forum post, because with it I don't have to check your stats to tell you that you are very, very wrong in many respects.

Guess what else does that in-game? XVM.

Snoozer #13 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:06

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Yeah this mod makes horrible players mad because they think they are really good, but some magic spell has made their stats bad...

Here's a news flash kids, with or without a mod that lets me know just how terrible of a player you are, you're still terrible. No amount of crying about how unfair it is that you're a bad player is going to make you good. Getting rid of stats isn't going to make you good. How can players with 10,000 battle where  90% of the games were won by only 5-6 players and not realize that 60%+ of the players in a game are totally worthless.. Most games have 10+ players without any kills.  Normal random battles have a single platoon carry your entire team, while the rest of you mill around and blow up.

For over 60% of the players in wot the only random element in pub matches is will they get enough good players on their team this time to win. If you don't believe it over the next 100 battles write down how many players on your team got kills in a winning match.


As a purple player, playing in a purple platoon, we know that we have to do everything or our team will lose. We have to play in tanks flexible enough to cap, defend, and kill all the enemy because ten of our players are are just plain horrible and will not help in any meaning full way other than targets to distract the enemy.. That's what purple players do though. We always try to win. Every every battle, every game. For 2/3s of the players in the game the only reason you win battles is because we are winning them for you. Oddly most of you don't try to support us, or learn from our examples ... You just whine and cry. But that's ok... You are the reason this game is so easy for us.

I have 15,700 pub battles, under 100 tank company battles and less that 20 clan wars battles. I have a win rate d 67%. Many of you have seen my platoon on the other team in pubs and know that you're in for a fight. We don't always win, but it's always a fight. This is why we are purple... This is why we have good stats... Because no matter the odds, we always do our best to win.

And guess what kids! 8.0is adding a bunch of new stats you to the game for you to cry about how unfair it is that they say your god awful when you know your a good player.

Purples will be purples with or with out stats. We are the Hero units that win games for you.

Edited by Snoozer, Aug 06 2012 - 01:02.


The_Millard #14 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:07

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Quote

As a purple player, playing in a purple platoon, we know that we have to do everything or our team will lose. We have to play in tanks flexible enough to cap, defend, and kill all the enemy because ten of our players are are just plain horrible and will not help in any meaning full way other than targets to distract the enemy.. That's what purple players do though. We always try to win. Every every battle, every game.
Which means playing fast heavies or mediums. It means a three arty platoon is probably not the way to win. It means RTBing when the scrubs refuse to go back. It means being "that guy" who goes one on four. And it means using your teammates to get the win.

XVM doesn't let you kill anyone faster.
Run away faster.
Allow you to ignore someone.
Give you more HP.
Give them less HP.

At best it tells you who you're playing against skill wise.

Edited by Millardthemk, Aug 05 2012 - 21:09.


Kewei #15 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:07

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View PostSnoozer, on Aug 05 2012 - 21:06, said:

Yeah this mod makes horrible players mad because they think they are really good, but some magic spell has made their stats bad...

Here's a news flash kids, with or without a mod that lets me know just how terrible of a player you are, you're still terrible. No amount of crying about how unfair it is that you're a bad player is going to make you good. Getting rid of stats isn't going to make you good. How can players with 10,000 battle were  90% of the games were won by only 5-6 players and not realize that 60%+ of the players in a game are totally worthless.. Most games have 10+ players without any kills.  Normal random battles have a single platoon carry your entire team, while the rest of you mill around and blow up.

For over 60% of the players in wot the only random element in pub matches is will they get enough good players on their team this time to win. If you don't believe it over the next 100 battles write down how many players on your team got kills in a winning match.


As a purple player, playing in a purple platoon, we know that we have to do everything or our team will lose. We have to play in tanks flexible enough to cap, defend, and kill all the enemy because ten of our players are are just plain horrible and will not help in any meaning full way other than targets to distract the enemy.. That's what purple players do though. We always try to win. Every every battle, every game. For 2/3s of the players in the game the only reason you win battles is because we are winning them for you. Oddly most of you don't try to support us, or learn from our examples ... You just whine and cry. But that's ok... You are the reason this game is so easy for us.

I have 15,700 pub battles, under 100 tank company battles and less that 20 clan wars battles. I have a win rate d 67%. Many of you have seen my platoon on the other team in pubs and know that you're in for a fight. We don't always win, but it's always a fight. This is why we are purple... This is why we have good stats... Because no matter the odds of them we always do our best to win.

And guess what kids! 8.0is adding a bunch of new stats you to the game for you to cry about how unfair it is that they say your god awful when you know your a good player.

Purples will be purples with or with out stats. We are the Hero units that win games for you.

Godammit, Snoozer, did you have to be so blunt about it? Now all the purple players are going to get an even worse rep because of you.

Znath #16 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:10

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That's the thing.
If you run into me in a battle... oh yea and 14 other people.  Are you going to know off the bat to look me up?  Probably not because statistically speaking I won't be the top tank anyway, but that doesn't stop me from carrying a ream or two with my Jumbo.  So it's easy to say "eh it doesn't offer much advantage" but it really kinda does.  Because then you'll instantly see out of those 15 players that the ace is among them and to single him out.

Without the mod you'd have to randomly check stats.  I've done it with a netbook next to me in-battle.  But I sure as hell didn't do it for all 30 people in the battle!  That would take about the entire length of the match!  That's the advantage offered, and it's not really totally fair.

And that's the thing, if you say "it offers no advantage" there's no point in using it, self defeating defense there.
If you say it does offer an advantage, then it's not really fair to everyone.

The_Millard #17 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:13

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 21:10, said:

That's the thing.
If you run into me in a battle... oh yea and 14 other people.  Are you going to know off the bat to look me up?  Probably not because statistically speaking I won't be the top tank anyway, but that doesn't stop me from carrying a ream or two with my Jumbo.  So it's easy to say "eh it doesn't offer much advantage" but it really kinda does.  Because then you'll instantly see out of those 15 players that the ace is among them and to single him out.

Without the mod you'd have to randomly check stats.  I've done it with a netbook next to me in-battle.  But I sure as <REMOVED> didn't do it for all 30 people in the battle!  That would take about the entire length of the match!  That's the advantage offered, and it's not really totally fair.

And that's the thing, if you say "it offers no advantage" there's no point in using it, self defeating defense there.
If you say it does offer an advantage, then it's not really fair to everyone.

Targeting the ACE is a good way to eat shells.

The player wins because they're good. Kill them if you can, but to quote a well known and loved/hated Unicom, "All the skill in the world can't win against a blob". Kill the average or bad players then when you're up by six tanks go for the ACE. Going straight for him is a good way to die, and no good player should trade out for just one tank.

Snoozer #18 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:23

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Quote

That's the thing.
If you run into me in a battle... oh yea and 14 other people.  Are you going to know off the bat to look me up?  Probably not because statistically speaking I won't be the top tank anyway, but that doesn't stop me from carrying a ream or two with my Jumbo.  So it's easy to say "eh it doesn't offer much advantage" but it really kinda does.  Because then you'll instantly see out of those 15 players that the ace is among them and to single him out.

We are also the players best able to handle being attacked by multiple targets at once. We use cover, we'll track you in the open, we'll draw you out where our team will flank and kill you, and we are best able to avoid arty. Even the good players will agree that it is very hard to keep track of single players on the other team in a firefight. Things just move to fast most of the time.

Eschaton #19 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:25

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View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:28, said:

XVM and this scenario are a good example of the damage mods like this are doing to the game.
-it makes kids over confident with information they otherwise can't obtain fairly during battle

WoT can run windowed, so you can see that stuff in battle, especially if you have a multi-monitor rig. There are also Android app available

View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:28, said:

-allows trolling and namecalling, insults, etc

So does life.

View PostZnath, on Aug 05 2012 - 20:28, said:

-generates an unfair advantage due to all this information

Unfair? Only unfair to those that do not own their own computers and thus are not allowed to install stuff, though those kids often are not allowed to install WoT either. If you lack the tech skills to install mods, WG made it easy, and most mods have simple instructions. Anybody incapable of following those instructions should not be on a computer at all in the first place, but can also ask people here to clarify and break it down even more simply.
It might be different if it were hard to find or required l33t hacking skills to install, but basically all you have to do is learn of it's existence (possibly by asking "How did you know...?") and you will find people who will help you do the rest. Nothing unfair about something anybody can have for the asking.

View Postsmokey5543, on Aug 05 2012 - 21:02, said:

mods give people advantages that ruin the game

So does skill.

Snoozer #20 Posted Aug 05 2012 - 21:26

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Quote

XVM doesn't let you kill anyone faster.
Run away faster.
Allow you to ignore someone.
Give you more HP.
Give them less HP.

At best it tells you who you're playing against skill wise.


Yes thats pretty much it. It also lets you know when you'll have to put in 150% to win. Although there have been times when having to tell you you have a 95% chance to win has ended up in a loss because you think it will be a cake walk.