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VK1602 Leopard and VK2801 "Cougar"

1602 2801 vk leopard

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allantorres #1 Posted Aug 10 2012 - 20:05

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After the last updates we notice that both leo and 01 are less and less used, but why?
2801 was always difficult to master. Its a very large scout with a mediocre traverse speed, and worse, its a top tier tank, its very very very difficult to profit with it even with your team winning. Compared to USSR top tier scout, T-50-2, the 2801 seems obsolet... a slow and big target over battlefield. Of course still a good tank with a cannon that can be a pain to others tank, but its a light tank, and you will always hear... " you're a LT, go scout!" Why not talk about the new ELC? Its a tiny fast scout with a derp too! Its a madness to hit him, even worse if you are at close rage!
The same occurs with good old Leo. Its a real fun tank, and very sexy (lol), but has the same MM of T-50... T-50 its a roach on battlefild, but not in the bad way, its other tiny fast and agile tank... if used right and helping the artys and bigger tanks could be a real threat to all tanks... but the leo... poor leo... is not so agille like t-50, not a really scout too, its more to an anti scout and arty hunter and the matches that it participate its NEEDED a scout.
So iI think the germans LT need a buff, or they will be more and more retired.

Cave__Johnson #2 Posted Aug 10 2012 - 20:18

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The leo just can't corner like the Luchs and neither have the top speed. The Vk is a great rammer and the top speed is the same as the T-50-2 but with the higher profile and the inability to turn without bleeding a huge amount of speed means dodging fire is a lot harder regulating it to the counter scout role. The derp gun is a one shot on arty but getting there requires a break in the lines. The T-50-2 can make a b-line for the enemy arty strait through the frontlines using speed and maneuverability with a low profile.

If you want to give the german scouts a buff then make them profitable to run. Then you will see more of them despite the superiority of the other nations scouts. Either that or make the VK handle more like a scout and less like a bus. It has the gun, speed and sight range already.

Start2 #3 Posted Aug 10 2012 - 20:50

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Cougar = Puma in German

Leo has the gun the Luchs was prepared to take, and the Leo should have better traverse speed; for every other "advantage" Leo has, is surely is under compensated by the poor gun. Even if the VK2801 had some optional type historical/fictional weaponry, (say a 2X 3cm Kugelblitz ball turret) it would at least get some play style options to offer a different game play for the tank.

The whole line is weak, (except the Luchs IMO) considering the Germans relied on a great variety of light tanks far later in the war than most of the other nations.

DeadlyTreadly #4 Posted Aug 11 2012 - 00:47

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Just sold my Leo. I have 20,000 xp to go to the Puma but just can't face waddling into yet another one-shot.

Pity, a very attractive tank that should do better.

Tazilon #5 Posted Aug 11 2012 - 03:56

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A well driven 2801 outperforms a T-50-2 in most things it is required to do; it isn't close to being obsolete.  The ELC is NOT a Scout but simply a Light.  Judging from what I've seen on the battlefield so far only about 1 in 100 ELC drivers have a clue about how to use them.  

People who discount the 2801s Scouting abilities are similarly clueless about how to drive the Cougar.  i'm something like 29th on the NA server in Enemy's Detected and i did most of the spotting with my 2801.  Now, if it sucks so bad at Scouting, why am i ranked so high?  The truth is, with it's great top speed and above average View Range, it is an awesome Scout.

Feyaden #6 Posted Aug 12 2012 - 03:38

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At first I thought it was not a very good tank, I have been playing the leopard since i started playing the game, and grew used to it's wide turn, speed, gun, and sloped armor. Hell to this day I really love the leopard. I am only 66 games into the VK2801, and I have to admit the play style shift is significant. I am only now grasping the capabilities of the tank (I just recently acquired the 10.5, which essentially makes it a mini hetzer, for anyone that played the hetzer line). I am using it more in a back roll where I hunt down enemy scouts, and then using it either for light scouting duties, or teaming up with a heavy to incapacitate a tank/kill tank. The HE rounds will ruin treads, lock turrets, break viewports and guns, and occasionally hit for a whopping 300 damage.

As many people have said, it is not a scout that is fast and nimble like the T50-2. It is not as hard hitting as the Chaffee. However it can do a little bit of both, and now that I realize that it is different from the leopard I am enjoying it a lot more. It still won't displace my love for the leopard I find, but overall, not a a disappointing tank. It is really amazing when you  know the enemy is getting confused switching between you and a heavy, and it has amazing stop to move acceleration. This allows it to really excel in city fighting torwards the end game.

The other thing people forget, is that it hits fucking hard on the ram too!

allantorres #7 Posted Aug 12 2012 - 14:32

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It was very interesting to read all of your comments, comments of really scouts. I have no doubt that all of you are right, Leo and Cougar still amazing tanks, and very very fun in the right hands. The point is, this two german tanks are really difficult to master. Most of players who think that are "scouts" just to take a t-50 and suicide, because its a fast tank.


The point is that everyone here would love to see leo and cougar shine again in battlefield, to encourage more and more players to get them, and learn really how to scout. Leo could have more acceleration and cougar is a really great tank, but with his size and difficult play style need an ace player to play with it, or the cost will be a really really high problem as a top tank.
I want to know more opinions about this two tanks, lets continue this discussion :)


By the way Tazilon, I saw your stats and you're a really troll with your cougar. But I still think that ELC AMX is a really nice close-range scout, but suffers a lot with radio rage (300m).

Tazilon #8 Posted Aug 12 2012 - 15:33

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Allan  

The trouble isn't the tank.  The trouble is people have a preconceived - and incorrect - idea of what scouting is so they use their tanks in a grossly inefficient manner.  The problem starts in the low tiers because so many players there think Scouting is simply driving as fast as possible to the enemy camp and dying within 60 seconds of the start of the game.  For many, such a warped idea of Scouting persists well into their higher Tiers.  When they decide to pursue the Light line, they still have only 1 misguided idea of Scouting in their heads.  

But that doesn't make the tank bad.  It makes the driver uninformed.  When their Leopard or Cougar doesn't excel at that type of Scouting, they proclaim it a joke and sell it.  Many never seem to notice the Lepo or 2801 patiently sitting in a bush allowing team mates to rain shells down on the enemy.  In fact, if they do, they are more apt to tell them to"go scout" than comprehend what the other tank is actually doing.  They don't notice how the Leo or Cougar guarded an entrance to their base then later in the fight went on to spot and kill 3-4 tanks.  They were busy telling them to "go scout" and they died 2 minutes into the game and rushed off to play another tank.  

There is a reason I tell people to watch another tank when they die in battle.  If you go play another battle, you never get to watch what the better players do.  If you die early, watch another tank!  Watch the Scout who is still alive!  See what they do.  Instead of thinking, "why aren't they scouting?" understand - they ARE scouting - just not in a way you are aware of.  watch them.  Learn from them.  Then change your perception of what "scouting" is.

And guess what?  Pretty soon, your WR will go up, your stats all around in your Leo and cougar will go up and suddenly you'll be one of the people coming to the forums and defending the tanks because you know how good they truly are.

Edited by Tazilon, Aug 13 2012 - 06:39.


Slywolf15 #9 Posted Aug 12 2012 - 15:54

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Hey Taz, would you happen to have any recent VK 2801 replays I could see? I planned on delving into the German Light line myself this week so I think it would be rather helpful on learning to scout properly.

Tazilon #10 Posted Aug 12 2012 - 17:21

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View PostSlywolf15, on Aug 12 2012 - 15:54, said:

Hey Taz, would you happen to have any recent VK 2801 replays I could see? I planned on delving into the German Light line myself this week so I think it would be rather helpful on learning to scout properly.

Go to the Replay forum - I have a thread there.

Feyaden #11 Posted Aug 13 2012 - 04:02

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Since I made the comment, I have crawled up to master class 1. Tazilon has hit it on the nose. I have half as many kills as i do battles, and I only have a few "scouting" medals. What I do, however, is three things. I have binoculars, AND coated optics. If I can get into cover and spot on maps where I know I am one of the few scouts, then I am sitting golden as arty shells rain down on hard targets, and my team moves to ambush. Being able to form a plan around how the opponent move can win the battle before the first shells are even fired. I also excel at the counter scout role, especially in the vk2801, the only tanks I have a hard time bringing down are the new T62's (which ironically are called shitty tanks lol), and batchats that can keep up with me and one shot me (ok two shot but so many times racked and or set on fire).

They are good tanks, but they need experience in all the other tanks to fully understand what your role is. As a td player, I know sight is important, but being able to protect a squishy tanks side is amazing. As an arty player, I know that treading is important, (something the HE gun does well mind you) as well as spotting. As a heavy I know I need to find the high damage tanks that are invisible etc, etc, etc. Overall pain to learn, but my philosophy is constant eyes over small bursts is better.

tracked_fortress #12 Posted Aug 13 2012 - 04:05

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i agree, the leo and 2801 are oversized and have bad turning, too bad they dont do rapid-patches, i was going to get a leo tomarrow on the 1/2 off deal :/

conman5525 #13 Posted Aug 14 2012 - 08:04

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I stopped using my Leopard 6 months ago as I was tired of the constant battering I was taking. 5000 battles later I decided I wanted to learn more about what scouting was (espically after reading the guide Taz put out). I bought the Leopard back and was amazed what a change in my attitude to her could do. I elited her today and purchased the VK2801. Wow, what a fun tank she is.

I still have a lot to learn about scouting but I think this is the right tank for me. Long view range, massive acceleration, high top speed, decent gun

Both of these tanks are staying in my garage.

allantorres #14 Posted Aug 14 2012 - 12:49

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its nice to see that our topic is bringing good results :Smile_popcorn1:

Necrolegion #15 Posted Aug 15 2012 - 09:06

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I have a question.. Should I try and acquire the 50K xp needed for the VK 2801 or do I just stick with the Leopard? I am reading some of your comments I think I may suck with the VK 2801. Already I am being put with tier 7-9s with my Leopard. So frustrating to get one-shot-killed.

allantorres #16 Posted Aug 15 2012 - 15:05

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If you like Leo, and like to be a scout and know how to do it right, you should get 2801. As you can see in this topic, its a hard tank to master, totally different from other scouts, but is a very nice tank.

spookctr #17 Posted Aug 15 2012 - 22:47

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the leo is big fat and slow.  It can't run away from anything because it bleeds so much speed in a turn, it takes forever to re-accelerate after the turn so you are a sitting duck.  The gun can't pen most tanks from the rear nor half the arty out there from the front.  With the addition of French high tier lights and the inclusion of high tier battles that include capable mediums like the type-59 I usually find myself arriving at a spot after either my own team or after the opposing team gets there.  BLAM!! One dead Leopard and I haven't reached a good place to spy from.

allantorres #18 Posted Aug 15 2012 - 22:55

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so you aren't playing right... try to be more pacient and hide when its necessary. the other thing is wait some minutes to heavies start to fight and lower some health....
you're not a true scout, you're more an arty hunter.. a heavy backstaber
look the other tanks, study their moviments, be a leopard and hunt them down!

spookctr #19 Posted Aug 15 2012 - 23:55

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View Postallantorres, on Aug 15 2012 - 22:55, said:

so you aren't playing right... try to be more pacient and hide when its necessary. the other thing is wait some minutes to heavies start to fight and lower some health....
you're not a true scout, you're more an arty hunter.. a heavy backstaber
look the other tanks, study their moviments, be a leopard and hunt them down!

I am sorry the dynamics have changed and the Leo has not.  I had a French Tier 8 light running circles around me and a T-50 that I couldn't catch because the acceleration and bulk is too much to overcome.  Mind you I am using the stock gun so I am 600 pounds lighter than "normal".

Tazilon #20 Posted Aug 16 2012 - 00:14

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When the Tier IV Scouts were top of the line, the Leo was considered better than the T-50.  Both of those tanks as essentially the same as back then.





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