13 replies to this topic

[bobjones_]

With the recent addition of tier 10 mediums and tank destroyers gameplay/gameplay discussion has changed. Some have told me these new tier 10 mediums are op let's look at the statistics. They are faster than your heavy they have almost the same health, but then again their guns are weak and fast yours is slow and powerful. Hide and snipe them or use your armor against theirs. Weight factors in as well ram them and have them bounce off. The only thing their guns may need is a 10mm pen decrease to counter their rof because even thought he guns do less damage it's not that low. You have to remember they told us the mediums would become just as deadly as the heavy's

[bobjones_]

I forgot to add about the td's worry but I will not be editing.

[1SupremeLord1]

Heavy tank drivers seem to forget medium tanks are smaller profile and better snipers.

[diesturmtiger]

the new Tank Destroyers really change how CW will run now

[1SupremeLord1]

diesturmtiger, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:27, said:

the new Tank Destroyers really change how CW will run now

You mean how TIer 10 TDs go on the offensive? It's annoying, but gotta agree with you there.

[Conflict]

I wish the BatChat had gone to what it was pre-nerf. Even with a smaller tier 8 gun that it had. A tier 10 scout would be awesome and wouldn't make it as unbalanced as it is now. It doesn't need to be a DPS boat.

[hailene2092]

bobjones_, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:20, said:

W but then again their guns are weak and fast yours is slow and powerful.

Yeah...what?

They either have roughly the same pen, or more pen as their heavy equivalents.  Their DPM is also better.

Heavy/Medium

American: 269 pen, 2400 / 268 pen, 2925
Germany: 246 pen, 2058 (Or 235 pen, 2250)/ 270 pen, 2437
France: 267 pen, 2348 /259 pen, 2108
Soviet: 268, 2200 (or 260 pen, 2146)/ 264 pen, 2908

The France sort of throws off the trend, but the Batchat uses different ammo that has better normalization.  Therefore against anything that's sloped (which is pretty much everything at tier 8+) you'll actually penetrate more armor with the Batchat.

Weak guns...yeah, that's the problem.  They should be sitting around 235 pen, to be honest.

bobjones_, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:20, said:

Hide and snipe them or use your armor against theirs.

That's the issue.  With the insane increase in penetration armor is becoming increasingly less useful.  Even bad shots or bad players can penetrate.

bobjones_, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:20, said:

Weight factors in as well ram them and have them bounce off.

What sort of idiot medium is going to let a heavy ram him?

[1SupremeLord1]

Hailene, german mediums generally get an advantage, if heavies try to ram them or if they ram the heavies.

Edit: With the extra penetration tier 10 mediums and TDs get, it requires better strategy and thinking critically on the battlefield. It may require you to get in a good spot, be aware of your surrounding, and angle your armor.

Edited by 1SupremeLord1, Aug 11 2012 - 07:49.

[Xzant]

I think that tier 10 meds seem OP because most players who drive them are very experienced, they've got them first. So gathering server stats right now and nerfing tier 10 meds will be disappointing and unfair. Wait till general public players will get em, after this tier10 meds will not seem so OP.

[Toasted_Rofls]

hailene2092, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:40, said:

What sort of idiot medium is going to let a heavy ram him?

You have not seen the people I end up with as the top tanks on my team.

Xzant, on Aug 11 2012 - 08:00, said:

I think that tier 10 meds seem OP because most players who drive them are very experienced, they've got them first. So gathering server stats right now and nerfing tier 10 meds will be disappointing and unfair. Wait till general public players will get em, after this tier10 meds will not seem so OP.

No, their OP because they spit damage out obscenely well and make the E-100 incredibly sad with there 270 pen range guns. The current Patton is amazing, I'm grinding it right now, I cannot imagine how stupidly good a version of it that's got 270 pen, more DPM, more view range, and more HP will be. I can make do with the 246 pen gun on my E-75 for killing nearly any tank in the game from the front, why can't tier 10 medium drivers do the same? Honestly, I think the only tier 10 medium that should have a lot of pen should be the E-50, and it should have it's gun in the 260 pen range. Also, please remember these tanks all use APCR as standard ammo, which gives them an advantage when facing sloped armor. All of the tier 10 mediums should have their ammo swapped back to normal AP, I think.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, I don't own any tier 10 mediums, but I can make some educated statements from experience regardless. I plan on getting either a M48A1 or E-50M soon, so I can make a final call then.

[thundersaver]

bobjones_, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:20, said:

With the recent addition of tier 10 mediums and tank destroyers gameplay/gameplay discussion has changed. Some have told me these new tier 10 mediums are op let's look at the statistics. They are faster than your heavy they have almost the same health, but then again their guns are weak and fast yours is slow and powerful. Hide and snipe them or use your armor against theirs. Weight factors in as well ram them and have them bounce off. The only thing their guns may need is a 10mm pen decrease to counter their rof because even thought he guns do less damage it's not that low. You have to remember they told us the mediums would become just as deadly as the heavy's

you don't understand, it is not how deadly they are as heavies, but they are not meant to be overly competitive to be able to stand toe to toe with heavies their Tier. You should be looking at Tier V tanks for example, it is the best example of how the tanks should be running around.

The Tier V heavies all have a lot more additional health for their tier, with the capability of surviving 2 more shots by guns their tier (except Tds) This actually translate to a sort of perfect or balanced ratio, however at Tier X, all the tanks are overall equivalent in health, damage, accuracy and DPM, the Heavies have no outlining advantage against tank their tier.

MBTs may have phased out Heavies during it's time because of efficiency, but the health and damage system is not balanced properly in-game. In addition Tank destroyers have ridiculous amounts of armor (excluding the pitiful object 268 with ridiculous camo numbers) even better than their original tank designs. Tank destroyers are in no way meant to be better armor than the tanks used to design them.

Even though the Jagdtiger has much more armor it is almost as useless as compared to the King tiger. This is because it's side armor is worst (superstructure) even it's speed is so bad and this is also displayed very well in world war II as well, where Jagditgers were killed by the their side armor. All these amount of armor which is overly competitive with Heavies their tier also render them useless.

Mediums in these game is supposed to have the advantage of DPM and mobility, with that the current Meds already embody such stats. When i talk about mobility it is reference to traverse.

Tank destroyers are meant to be long range snipers with good amubsh capabilities and large calibre guns. However they are not meant to have more armor than the tank chassis used to develop this self-propelled guns. This is because in reality it would burden the chassis itself, where in-game this lacking problem creates "perfect" tanks which outright show little disadvantages. Even TDs were usually referred to be stop-gap options

Heavy tanks are meant to have the role of damage-sponges/ heavy armored blocks. They are supporters of attacks and defense, where their health and armor is used that way. But with the point of armor and health not being balanced properly, it has become redundant in current matches now.

Mediums compared to heavies are indeed as deadly, while others are deadly in firepower (panther and Tiger), but the fact that they have more health and armor is a sign of the MBT era, however this MBT era creates problems for the other tanks. MBT era technology is effective on tank to tank combat, but they are hampered with infantry combat, thus their weakness and need of fast, anti-infantry light tanks.

This sort of imbalance is displayed by firstly health one those tanks are simply too high. Even the Panther has about 200 less health point, compared to the tiger, which is twice the amount damage from the gun which the panther has. The difference is only seen in the German Heavies where they are true damage-sponges, compared to the rest whereby they are not even follow the notion of heavy tanks.

Heavy tanks have their health advantage taken away from them which is a problem. Even alpha damage is also a benefit taken away from some of them mostly due to their medium counterparts doing similar alpha. This does drive other tanks of it's tier effectively to the ground.

The new Tier X tanks are indeed not OP, but their stats which are meant to be reserved to be a benefit for the heavies have been placed wrongly, and thus i guess buffing and nerfing process are coming soon, big changes will come to address this problems, once they surface in the RU server, those changes will be brought back here as well, so you better enjoy your Universal tanks before they are set back to do their proper roles.

hailene2092, on Aug 11 2012 - 07:40, said:

What sort of idiot medium is going to let a heavy ram him?

When your in a 63 tonne E-50 with moving at 60km/h: E= 1/2MV^2

1/2 x 63 x 60^2 = 113,400 kinetic energy

Now compare that to: Maus 200 tonnes moving at 20km/h

1/2 x 200 x 20^2 = 40,000 kinetic energy

I am not even joking, now let's translate the difference in ramming energy:

117,000- 40,000= 73,400 of energy difference.

If i were to ram you in your Maus, don't be surprised if you're at the reaching end of the damage and the E-50 receives less in return.

More examples:

M48 patton weighing 48 tonnes, moving at 45km/h

T110E5 weighing at 55 tonnes moving at 37km/h

1/2 x 48 x 45^2 = 48,600 kinetic energy

1/2 x 55 x 37^2 = 37,657.5 kinetic energy

T62A weighing at 37tonnes, moving at 50km/h

Is-7 weighing 69 tonnes, moving at 50km/h (it is obvious that the Is-7 will doing more ramming damage, but let us compare it to the other heavies)

1/2 x 37 x 50^2 = 46,250 kinetic energy

1/2 x 69 x 50^2 = 86,250 kinetic energy

Batchat 25t weighing 25 tonnes, moving at 65km/h

Amx 50B weighing at 63 tonnes, moving at 65km/h(clear winner for heavies)

1/2 x 25 x 65^2 = 52,812.5 kinetic energy

1/2 x 63 x 65^2 = 133,087.5 kinetic energy

I would thus ram any heavies except for the Amx 50b and Is-7, and simply do a damage because physics said so.

Extras:

Is-4 weighing at 60 tonnes, moving at 43 km/h

1/2 x 60 x 43^2 = 55,470 kinetic energy

E-100 weighing at 130 tonnes, moving at 30km/h

1/2 x 130 x 30^2 = 58,500 kinetic energy

Kv-5 Weighing at 101 tonnes, moving at 40km/h

1/2 x 101 x 40^2 = 80,800 kinetic energy (better be surpised)

Edited by thundersaver, Aug 11 2012 - 10:30.

[Antosha_]

The only one of the new tier 10s that looks like it might have a touch of "OP" is the 110E4,, but  it's not clearly so.

[hailene2092]

thundersaver, on Aug 11 2012 - 09:55, said:

If i were to ram you in your Maus, don't be surprised if you're at the reaching end of the damage and the E-50 receives less in return.

You're forgetting 2 things.  First, it is not the momentum of your tank that determines your damage and the armor of the side that hits affects how much damage you take and do.

For the first one, if it only mattered what momentum your tank did, then if I took my E-50 and smashed into a stationary tank I would do lots of damage and take no damage according to your theory, right? We know that's not the case.

Also the Maus in your example has roughly 3 butt loads more armor than the E-50.

In a head-on collision the Maus would wipe the floor with an E-50.

[thundersaver]

hailene2092, on Aug 11 2012 - 17:36, said:

You're forgetting 2 things.  First, it is not the momentum of your tank that determines your damage and the armor of the side that hits affects how much damage you take and do.

For the first one, if it only mattered what momentum your tank did, then if I took my E-50 and smashed into a stationary tank I would do lots of damage and take no damage according to your theory, right? We know that's not the case.

Also the Maus in your example has roughly 3 butt loads more armor than the E-50.

In a head-on collision the Maus would wipe the floor with an E-50.

There is a perk called controlled impact for a reason.

There was a thread on the forums before of an Is-7 ramming a Maus for no damage, while the Maus kept taking damage (pre 7.2) let me look for it tomorrow, it is lights out from where i am now, sorry to keep you hanging.

Edited by thundersaver, Aug 11 2012 - 17:40.