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Vk4502(P) Ausf B Vs Is-4


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Gies84 #101 Posted Nov 18 2010 - 14:17

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View PostWhiteHyena, on Nov 18 2010 - 13:53, said:

Do we even have an ETA for the E-series? Game might be released before they are even in.

only thing i know is it will be after the french tanks were released

MARMIST #102 Posted Nov 19 2010 - 21:35

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I'll be patient then  <_<

Meatons #103 Posted Nov 22 2010 - 04:46

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Im beginning to revise my thoughts on the vk45 after 70 games, the turret upgrade with the additional hitpoints sweetens it up considerably, half way to the 12.8, and having looked at the stats of the 12.8 I think after thats fitted the vk45 could be my new fav tank. Ive learned a lot about vk45 tactics too and these dont involve moving unless absolutely necessary (think nemisis: the bus)

Had some good battles with the Maus and when the 12.8 comes along the vk could really be on par

Overlord #104 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 18:03

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VK4502 is going to see mantle armor increase:

- stock turret 120->160mm
- top turret 120->180mm

Aronax #105 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 20:43

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Buff Ausf B's hull frontal plate too then, please we beg you, since IS-4 will not have those weak spots on frontal armor anymore, on sniping ranges we are as good as dead every time.

Hyena #106 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 20:49

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View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:43, said:

Buff Ausf B's hull frontal plate too then, please we beg you, since IS-4 will not have those weak spots on frontal armor anymore, on sniping ranges we are as good as dead every time.

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying the IS-4 is getting buffed? O_o Info please.

Finchy #107 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 20:53

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View PostWhiteHyena, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:49, said:

View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:43, said:

Buff Ausf B's hull frontal plate too then, please we beg you, since IS-4 will not have those weak spots on frontal armor anymore, on sniping ranges we are as good as dead every time.

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying the IS-4 is getting buffed? O_o Info please.

My link

Mastoras #108 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 20:57

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Thats cool, vk4 could use boosting in many areas. Top of turret i assume, is just that, the top of the turret, that whole plate. Guess on high elevation spots that could be a problem someone shooting u directly above.

Hyena #109 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 20:58

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View PostFinchy, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:53, said:

View PostWhiteHyena, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:49, said:

View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 20:43, said:

Buff Ausf B's hull frontal plate too then, please we beg you, since IS-4 will not have those weak spots on frontal armor anymore, on sniping ranges we are as good as dead every time.

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying the IS-4 is getting buffed? O_o Info please.

My link


..Wow O.o I really hope that's a bad joke.

Aronax #110 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 21:07

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http://forum.worldof...post__p__249238

now this is proper link for buff, and it means following "no weak spot between tracks, no weak spot at driver's turret"

Hyena #111 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 21:24

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View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 21:07, said:

http://forum.worldof...post__p__249238

now this is proper link for buff, and it means following "no weak spot between tracks, no weak spot at driver's turret"

I wasn't aware the IS-4 even needed a buff, seeing as it's already one of the most powerful and durable tanks in-game..

Nice to see the devs using real world armour values for Russian tanks though when buffing them.

Think we should spam the forums with real world Tiger, King Tiger and Maus armour values and speeds to see if we get the same treatment?  <_< What a bad joke.

Aronax #112 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 21:25

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Imho it won't work, but since there will be soft wipe in a few weeks, the best thing to do would be to all go to is-4.
I  personally hate it, but that's the only way we will force developers that only look at statistics to actually notice the lack of any german heavy over t9.

Meatons #113 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 21:48

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+1, irrespective of what changes are planned to be made I will after the next softwipe go up the russian heavy tree, since I started playing this game I have only been in the german heavy tree with about 800 games in the tiger 1, 2 and vk45 and I have noticed the russian tanks in the same tier are all superior to the germans T7,8,9, regardless of individual skill level, if they bounce more shots then you can, turn their turrets faster, drive faster, turn faster and seem to regularly go invisible at close range even while they are still moving and still shooting at you.

What really makes me wanna rage/ is that if this imbalance is not bad enough tank on tank, when the teams get balanced I am statistically at a disadvantage in the long run, as I am often the top tank or second to top in any team, so if the opposing team has a similar mix of german and russian or just german tanks, I am fine, it then comes down to the players skill all other things being equal,

if however my team is stacked from me down with german heavies and their team is stacked with russian heavies, we will most likely lose unless they are a) morons or b we have more then 1 or 2 arty that are skilled and dont die in the first two minutes.

In these situaions I can predict with some high degree of certainty the outcome before the games even starts who will win, on those games I seriously feel like going afk to avoid the experience that will follow. bounce, bounce, cant see him anymore, were on fire, we didnt even penetrate him, the drivers bought the farm, main gun destroyed, bail out

Raketensegler #114 Posted Nov 23 2010 - 21:58

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View PostOverlord, on Nov 23 2010 - 18:03, said:

VK4502 is going to see mantle armor increase:

- stock turret 120->160mm
- top turret 120->180mm

What are the comparative values for IS4? Does it have 250mm like shown in the armour diagram? Besides, what will these changes do? 180mm are easily penetrated by higher tier guns, so you have a very easy target to hit, this wont change anything.

Condemned #115 Posted Nov 24 2010 - 18:53

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View PostOverlord, on Nov 23 2010 - 18:03, said:

VK4502 is going to see mantle armor increase:

- stock turret 120->160mm
- top turret 120->180mm

Surprised to see they were that low to begin with but at the same it was always a good spot to shoot, this is a positive turn of events. I am a bit disheartened however that no changes have/will be made to the glancis plate, engine breakage from frontal hits and gun penetration/visible range.

View PostWhiteHyena, on Nov 23 2010 - 21:24, said:

View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 21:07, said:

http://forum.worldof...post__p__249238

now this is proper link for buff, and it means following "no weak spot between tracks, no weak spot at driver's turret"

I wasn't aware the IS-4 even needed a buff, seeing as it's already one of the most powerful and durable tanks in-game..

Nice to see the devs using real world armour values for Russian tanks though when buffing them.

Think we should spam the forums with real world Tiger, King Tiger and Maus armour values and speeds to see if we get the same treatment?  <_< What a bad joke.

One might wonder if balancing means making the already superior unit/tank better then its already inferior counterpart(s)

View PostAronax, on Nov 23 2010 - 21:25, said:

Imho it won't work, but since there will be soft wipe in a few weeks, the best thing to do would be to all go to is-4.
I  personally hate it, but that's the only way we will force developers that only look at statistics to actually notice the lack of any german heavy over t9.

In a couple of weeks most tiger hvy tank drivers/players will most likely pick the IS line instead, the devs seem in my oppinion too stuck on historical correctness to address the imbalance of tiers. Also the function the VK4502 and Maus serves, their roles are better taken by the german TDs, they carry the improved firepower and frontal armor and are almost as equally bad at pop out fighting.

Joel_Autobahn #116 Posted Nov 26 2010 - 23:43

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View PostWhiteHyena, on Nov 08 2010 - 23:05, said:

The sad thing is that, unbalanced as some of the German/Russian tanks still are (like the ausf B vs IS-4, Maus vs IS-7 etc), things are only going to get much much worse with the addition of the American lines.

It'll sound very critical but I honestly don't know what the devs are thinking, releasing a brand new Nation while the two they have are still unbalanced. All it'll do is further dilute and complicate the problem. I wouldn't be surprised that if, once the American tanks are released, the devs ignore the German/Russian balance issues and move onto the American ones right away instead.

It's slightly off-topic but as someone mentioned I still can't believe that they did nerf the Maus' armour (and several other German tanks in the process), it's now the biggest waste of credits/xp in the game and is 100% out-classed in every field by the IS-7. Reaching the end of a line, you want to give your players something great, something they can be proud of (like the IS-7), not something that makes them feel as though they picked the wrong nation. >_>

BINGO, this is the exact reason i'm quitting this game and won't even play on release, even though I was planning on buying some gold for XP bonuses.

The IS3/4/7 VS top german tanks was not balanced, but I was willing to deal with it, since IT WAS POSSIBLE to snipe in a superior manner in rare situation on some maps.  With these massive gun and IMPENETRABLE front armour American tanks, I question the whole design of the game, not wasting any more time to be frustrated in the end.

jm24 #117 Posted Nov 27 2010 - 00:52

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German tanks are fine

Aronax #118 Posted Nov 27 2010 - 14:04

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View Postjm24, on Nov 27 2010 - 00:52, said:

German tanks are fine
And you haven't played elite IS-4 (as seen on your stats page), and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

KrieGsgotT #119 Posted Nov 28 2010 - 02:48

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View PostCondemned, on Nov 01 2010 - 22:58, said:

Ive had my VK4502 for a couple weeks now and its been its up and downs, first I hated it, I despised its very presence. I thought everything about the tank was just crap, junk really. Its by far the worst stock tank Ive played with and I suspect it rivals TigerI as the worst ingame (for its tier/value/etc). Without the upgraded engine it was painful getting around, without its main gun it was worse then the KT because it lacked the mobility of its lower tier cousin/brother. Now with the upgraded engines and Cannon its a decent tank, it has its flaws like the engine that breaks once every 3rd game and once it breaks its a moving brick, having an injured driver gives the same effect, combined its a nightmare but so long as its not being shot at by any heavy guns its fine.

This was not meant to be a whine thread, Im just giving you some of the details from my experience with it. Now lets take a look at the numbers by first comparing it to its lower tier the KT

Spoiler                     

first interesting thing that comes to mind for me is the weight, their the same basicly which is rather strange as the VK4502 seems heavier (got a bad engine though). Secondly armor values a mere +20 infront hull-wise but with a welcomed thicker turret to compensate for the petty increase. As for the side armor well on KT its sloped and on VK4502 its not, KT got 80 whilst the VK4502 got 100, an unsignificant increase also its not sloped pretty much any 6+ can get a piece of its hp (not to mention all the subsystems, engine, gastank, ammo rack).
Now cannon-wise, this is why we upgrade, not because of the speed, not because of the armor, but for the huge gun and its massive damage.

So to sum it up, the VK4502 is an upgrade of the KT, compared to the KT VK4502 is a much better tank, not for the hp nor armor but for a huge cannon with massive damage. Its a pure upgrade and now thats were the IS.4 comes in, after all its what this threads about not the KT vs 4502 but we need to understand why the tank is how it is before we can actually make any rational suggestions. The devs have simply smacked on an upgrade package of the KT without comparing it to its sovjet counterpart (at all/not enough.)

Here we have the IS-3 and the IS-4

Spoiler                     

Like the VK4502 and KT IS-4 has a lot more armor then its predecessor but unlike the VK4502 the IS-4 not only gets a lot of frontal turret armor it gets sides too but more about that later, further study shows you that they share the same engine altough the IS-4 is 10 tons heavier. But apart from it being heavier it excels over the IS-3 in most other ways, its cannon, hp and its armor, IS-3 is faster but the trade for armor seems like a real bargain.

Again we see a pure upgrade on its predecessor (although I must say I wasnt expected such a rift in power as it doesnt seem to lack anything that the IS-3 possessed apart from the obvious mobility and acceleration) not seeing to regarding the other tank tree.

Match up

Posted Image

.........................................................VK4502............................IS-4..........................Difference(%)
HP ......................................................1850..............................1590.............................+16%
Weight/engine power...............82t/740hp=10hp/a ton......58t/650hp=11hp/a ton...............-10%
Speed, top and traverse............ 30km/h / 17km/h.............. 35km/h / 25km/h.............-16%/-32%
Armor, Hull....................................170/100/100...................160/160/120................+6%/-60%/-20%
Armor, Turret.................................252/160/160...................250/200/170...............+0,8%/-25%/-6%
Turret traverse speed, view range......20/460..........................23/400.......................-15%/+15%
Cannon damage............................470/470/620....................490/490/640.................-4%/-4%/-3%
............ Penetration.......................246/311/65......................260/303/68..................-5%/+3%/-5%
............ Aiming/reload time..............2.5/13s...........................3/12,7s.......................+20%/+8%

+ next to the % marks VK4502 as the winner
- next to the % marks IS-4 as the winner


Conclusion

The IS-4 wins in almost all forms of statistics, especially of note is the armor which not only is thicker but is also sloped around the entire tank, the turret which is round makes it extremely hard to penetrate and its low profile combined with a greater mobility and a more powerful gun puts the VK4502 (in the current state) as nothing but a reminder of the second world war, as proven above its inferior in close to anyway and although a good VK4502 player may play with it successfully that doesn't mean its equally good as the opposite tank in the sovjet tech tree.

Solution

I will present a valid "fix" to this issue, Im sure the community can help and refine it or even come up with a better one. My foremost intention with creating this thread was to enlighten the issue and bring facts with me so that it wouldn't be just another whine thread.

Back to the matter at hand I suggest Giving VK4502 a more powerful cannon to compensate for its flaws (As Maus is currently using the same gun I suggest making an entire new one as otherwise it may cause balance issues with the next tier), I suggest increasing the front armor so that it actually could be useful, the IS-4 gets a total of 440(H)+620(T)=1060 whilst the VK4502 gets 370(H)+570(T)=942 as the VK4502 is supposed to be a long ranged tank its frontal armor should be increased, as shown above the IS-4 got 13% more armor, or 118 units if you like and armor is more then twice as important as the HP as bounces are more valuable then the extended life line. Now its VK4502 with its 16% more hp vs IS-4 with its 13% more armor and to make it perfectly clear. HP IS NOT AS GOOD/EQUAL TO ARMOR.

Lastly but not least important is the view range, as the T9 german tank is so much bigger it gets spotted at ranges were it cant see itself, even while enemies firing they remain invisible and for a sniper tank to have 15% longer view-range then a close combat unit and ontop of that being so massive, its a - -. It needs increased vision. so in short

*damage increase*
*view range extended*
*thicker frontal armor*


You know whats your problem? just because you cant win from an IS-4 they have the make it worse? , you can only win from your enemy when he has exactly the same tank? , i mean killing a beter tank gives me more of a satisfaction then killing PZIII's in my IS-4. It's not the tank , it's the driver. How many times have i seen people in Maus , IS-7 dying within 60 sec with a 0. I mean c'mon just because you cant beat it , they have to make it worse? The tanks are not unbalanced , the drivers are

Aronax #120 Posted Nov 28 2010 - 04:06

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I just love to hear IS-4 only drivers sell us bullshit how IS-4 is balanced, it's the driver not the tank, etc..
I have Ausf B, JagdTiger and played ~100 games with elite IS-4 (So all 3 T9s).
IS-4 players defend their tank so much, if they ever get a bounce on Ausf B, then it's "AUSF B IS OP".
Guess what, Ausf B beats on close range IS-4 most of the time, IS-4 beats everything else on any range most of the time. Ausf B gets wtfpwned by everything else most of the time.

So Ausf B is not equal IS-4. U know why? Side armor! Slope on sides! Less module damage! And then you should start bullshiting me how Ausf B is sniper. Erm nope, they both have exactly same accuracy (0.35).
IS-4 has better gun. From sniper range, IS-4 penetrates my Ausf B often, i on the other hand bounce no his sloped armor most of the time (since reticle is as big as tank it's not possible to aim at weak spots).
Get Ausf B then talk, play atleast 100 games with it on elite, untill then zip it.




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