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Isreali Tank Tree & Equipment Discussion...


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IndygoEEI #1 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:01

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Note:  This Tree at this time is *NOT* an official Tree.  This only a
discussion on the possibility of such happening.



Posted Image

Introduction

At the start of much tank research I do for tank suggestions, I usually find
out more then I expected.  This is the case when I decided to look up the
Shirir main gun due to the release of the British tree.  During this process,
I found that a full Israeli Tech was a doable proposition.  After a good day
of research, what you have above is the fruits of my labor.

It should be noted that this tree is actually "Israel with guests" or the Isreali-
Arab conflict tree.  The majority of these special guests were involved with
wars with Isreal in some way yet the likelyhood of a being able to supply the
listed unique tanks from these nations to make a tech tree is not bound to
happen.  That is why they are included in the Isreali tech tree.

Why Israel?

Israel has proven to be a highly influential country in the course of modern
tank development.  They have helped other countries take old out modded
units and instituted relevant advances into those tanks that are compatible.
Such is the case with South Africa's Olefant for example.  If Israel had failed
to make such changes the old WW2 tanks, they would not exist as a country
today.

Explanation of the Tech Tree

While I go through the Tree, I will post relevant links.  There are a couple that
will come up often, so I will just make them noted here.  On Note 1, I will
elaborate further on matter since part of my tech tree was already done by
the OP in the thread.  Any tank that is too high for it's tier will receive
Durability Nerfs due to the fact that the Israeli tanks are 2nd handed.

1) http://forum.worldof...aeli-tank-tree/
2) http://www.balagan.o...ars/weapons.htm

Tier 1

Bren MG Carrier

http://mailer.fsu.ed...uardService.jpg

*See Notes 1 and 2 for explanation.

There were quite a bit of these running around during initial war of the Israeli-
Arab conflict.  I tend to agree with poster who made the original Tech Tree.  I
do insist that an MG be the stock weapon for Bren though.

Initial Medium Branch

Tier 2 R35

http://forum.valka.c.../1454/saum2.jpg

See Note 1

Right off the bat,  the Israelis go to work and mount a much better cannon
on an ill gunned R35.  This trend will continue throughout Israeli tank history.

Tier 3 H39

Posted Image

Everything I have to say on the matter is in Note 1.

Tier 4 Sherman Krupp

Via Note 1, I do agree with poster on the matter that Durability Nerfs should be
in play.  It would be interesting to see what a T4 Sherman with a 75mm HE
cannon can do.

Tier 5 Sherman M1

http://forum.valka.c...rman_M-1_03.jpg

See Note 1.

The Israelis are finally getting up to speed here by the 1956 Suez Crises.  By this
time, all relevant parts have been Refurbished.  Anything that was the same
previously in T4 can now be researched to Refurbished and will have stats at or
near their originals.

Tier 6 M51/60 "Isherman" Super Sherman

http://forum.valka.c...man_M-60_01.jpg

See Note one

By now, the Israeli Shermans are up to World Class snuff even if their hulls
are starting to rust.  Not much is changed between M51 and M60 as the
only thing that was done is an addition of the HVMS Gun.


Medium Tank Lines

Before I continue, I must take note on the "Shirir" Gun.  The Shirir gun is
a variant of the British 105 L7 improved by the Israelies.  Most of these
improvements begin at the loading breach.  Also note the final M60
Cannon which will appear on the Magach is based on the British L7.  All
models of Sharir will have differences between the tank lines.

Medium Tank Tiran Series

Posted Image

See Note 1
http://en.wikipedia....variants#Israel

All Variants will get refurbished Tracks.  Turret upgrades will only improve
View range.

Israelis captured a lot of equipment in the Arab Wars.  One of them was the
T54/55 tanks.  Tiran 4 will not become an S version, but it's main 100mm
Soviet gun (D-54) will get an upgrade in aim time and accuracy while
receiving a ROF nerf to 7.2 rounds a minute.  However the accuracy buff
will not go beyond the current D-102TC Accuracy.  The Engine will get a
slight improvement of a few horses due to changes in the exhaust system.

Tiran 5 will upgrade the Radio and the Final "Sharir" Gun will become
availible.  The Shirir on this model will carry AP/APCR/HE and will be fairly
average between the tank lines.

Tier 10 Tiran 67 (named 67 after 6 day war) will be a drastic change
between previous Tirans.  It will recieve improved suspension, and a
completely new engine.

Cont. next post....

Edited by IndygoEEI, Oct 15 2012 - 19:06.


IndygoEEI #2 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:04

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Medium Tank Magach Series

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/M48_Patton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magach

The Continental 1790 Engine Series
http://www.kampfpanz...etail/v-1790��-
http://en.wikipedia....tinental_AV1790

http://www.areamilit.../Magach3_05.jpg

Magach 3 as shown

Historical Basis

Magach is based on the famed M48 Pattons.  Each number in the series
repesents variants A1-A5.  However, these are upgrades are not enough
to dispel not having Magach line.  Also, the changes in this line are very
drastic and in some cases of the upgrades, less then par when compared
to the M48A1.  Although some models according to Wikipedia were fitted
with Explosive Reactive Armor, the keyword is 'eventually".

Upgrades

The Isrealies may have gotten their Magachs in the early 60s, but they
were stuck with pitiful 90 mm guns, so you'll be seeing 90 mm until you
obtain tier 9.

Magach 1 will be a nerfed M48A1 in terms of speed.  It seems the Isrealis
were stuck with an awul engine which will be explained down the line.
Upgrades will include a new low profile modification turret with slightly
increased turret rotation.  A suitable engine upgrade will be found to
compensate for lack of speed.  90 MM upgrades will include French
Models.  A track upgrade will be availible to reflect one of the changes in
M48A2C.

Magach 3 upgrades the hull itself, with the rear getting an Armor buff as
stated in M48A3 Model B.  A new in house developed Urdan turret
(Designated Magach 3) will be added to suite.  The Engine will recieve
an upgrade to the 750 hp diesel engine Continental AVDS-1790-2A.
Compared to the Continental AV-1790-7B on M48A1, it is extremly lacking.
You will be able to get a "nerfed" M68 at this Tier due to "Durability" issues.
A track upgrade will be availible as well.

Magach 5 is the final Tier 10 Medium.  It will recieve it's own Turret, Urdan
Magach 5.  The M68 will become standard with an option to a "Shirer"
Model that will change it's charecterisics to a more brawler type gun.  The
engine for Magach 5 is the AVDS-1790-2D, which will most likely post
better horsepower numbers since it is not much different then the 2A
model.

Ammo loadout setup will follow the Patton Setup.

Heavy Lines

Heavy Line Sho't Series

See Note 1

Historical Basis

http://forum.valka.c...Shot_Kal_04.jpg

I agree with my fellow man on the matters of the Sho't, but without a
suitable indenginious Heavy to be found beyond making a an uparmored
Magach Series (something I'd preferably like to avoid), it seemed that the
Sho't Series was the only suitable canidate for the heavy line.

Upgrades

Considering the amount of modifications on Sho't series, all tracks

As you travel down the line, the Sho't Hull will be graded conisderable
while increasing from the 22KPH base speed in Centurion on which the
Sho't is based.

Note one barely covers the upgrades of Sho't that should be applied.  While
Mk 5 Centurion is practically untouched in the matter yet at Tier 9, the
Sho't is going to have to upgrade from the Meteor Engine.  The 2A
Continental from the Magach Series can also be researched here.  The
possibility of a turret exists here and 105 L7 Shirer will be availible at Tier 9.
The Sho't will feature this Ammo loadout setup for the Shirir - AP/ACPR/HESH
- while having stats being gearing to marksmenship.

Optional and Special Guest:  Iraqi T55 series

http://en.wikipedia..../57_mm_AZP_S-60
http://en.wikipedia....d_variants#Iraq

Posted Image

T-55 Enigma (LOL!  THAT'S NOT ERG ARMOR!  Or is it? :Smile_trollface-3:  )

Historical Basis

Histoical basis for being in the tech tree?  None.  Likelyhood of
being seen in WoT?  Also, none.  Since these are outmodded
tanks with unique upgrades, I have put them in for opinion.  If
this is the section of the tree I take out, this one definately it.

Upgrades

The Tier 9 T55 features upgrades, but without much info to go
on I'll jutst leave in the main features.  In order to house the new
S60 gun, you'll need the turret upgrade.  The S60 will feature
the same great penetraion charicteristics of it's bigger S70
brother and will fire fast enough to compensate for the lower
damage of 180 with AP.  You'll also have a side gun with a 160
mm Mortar (DERP!).

Tier 10 is the infamous (Sorry can't stop laughing at Saddam's
crazy contraption) Enigma :Smile_veryhappy:.  Apparently those boxes are
loaded with spaced armor.  Wait?  It's not ERG armor?  No, it's
not.  Standard amorment will be the M68 Cannon.

Gotta take a break note:

Ok, guys.  I'm not good at typing.  I dam well suck at it and have
been going at it for a while.  Next time I'll cover:

SPGs and TDs...

Enjoy what you see now.  And questions will be answered after I
type up the whole thing.

Turtle240 #3 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:15

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You should post your ideas on the EU forum,because they are great and deserve to be considered which they wont here

StandardToast #4 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:18

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+2! Lol. I like this idea, very detailed  :Smile_great:

wizardcalledtim #5 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:19

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Very cool and informative, thanks for your efforts !

The Israelis are famed throughout the world for their early tanks ( and mods ), tankers, and hammer down tactics. Nice to see you give them the respect they deserve. The 7th AD of the IDF continues to strike fear in the hearts of all.

+ 1

See you out there....

Sgtrock12 #6 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:26

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I would be interested in seeing a Israeli line myself. One must note that they have routinely taken standard armored vehicles and turned them into fantastic pieces of workmanship and function. Too bad we probably won't see this or for that matter Italian or Japanese armored vehicles.



GreyKat #7 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:39

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+1 good work

Tiger_23 #8 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:40

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This was discussed before in EU forum, lots of Lend lease/other nations vehicles, didnot work...

*M51 must be atleast tier VII

Im looking for the EU tree, Polish tree and Japanese tree btw

EDIT:

You almost make copu-paste forum EU : http://forum.worldof...aeli-tank-tree/

Edited by Tiger_23, Oct 15 2012 - 19:45.


mefisto04 #9 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 19:41

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send this to developers looks cool

lostwingman #10 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 20:04

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The only problem with the Israeli tree that I have is that they have mostly just modifications of other nations tanks.
Not sure if that would be ok for a regular tech tree. Maybe some kind of "premium" tech tree, although I have no idea how to institute such a thing.

Vixatious #11 Posted Oct 15 2012 - 20:08

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Generally the israeli tech tree is just a cocktail of tanks from France, U.S., Britain, and some captured Iraqi/Egyptian (basically Soviet) tanks. That have a few different modules attached to them.
I honestly do not see any point or need to adding this tech tree into the game.
WG could just add the modules used to modify the above tanks to the existing tech trees, and you achieve the same effect.

The only way I see them making an appearance is if WG would just add one Egyptian/Iraqi tank and one israeli tank as premium. Otherwise it would just be a waste of resources and time to add this tree.

Edited by Vixatious, Oct 16 2012 - 07:42.


minderbinder8 #12 Posted Oct 17 2012 - 01:59

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It's a great idea but I doubt that a full Israeli tree is an option in the end. Too many of its tanks are up-gunned modified tanks from other nations.

I would like to see the Super Sherman as a tier 6 premium though, that could be very fun, as well as maybe the Ben Gurion 20pdr or Sho't (or both) as tier 8-10 premiums.

godofdun #13 Posted Oct 17 2012 - 03:16

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Ya just add most of them as premiums to the nations tree the original came from........although that might be odd since some of them were so heavily modified they would have to be a tier or so higher than the original tank O.o

ScrewySqrl #14 Posted Oct 18 2012 - 01:06

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the M-51 would be an interesting premium for tier 8, as it would be the opposite of the usual premiums:  a strong, hard hitting gun that even Maus and T-62 will respect, and armor like tissue paper

vonluckner #15 Posted Oct 18 2012 - 12:53

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If WG is willing to add a Chinese tree, which would be predominantly Russian designs adapted for Chinese use, it wouldn't be really that much of a stretch for an Israeli line.

I personally don't think they'll do it, as I suspect the Chinese line is more so they can better market the game there, but still, it's a neat idea. +1.

Redwing6 #16 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 01:58

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edited for content.

Edited by Redwing6, Nov 11 2012 - 01:59.


Ratcheti #17 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 02:43

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Hell yes Israeli line! +1!

stumperz #18 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 18:32

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sooooo china tech tree v2?

Edited by stumperz, Nov 11 2012 - 18:32.


Shinma_ #19 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 19:17

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As much as I'd really love to see an IDF asskicking tree, the biggest issue, similar to why a Chinese tree is rediculous, is that the Israeli tank building industry starts off a touch too late for WoT timeframe where they actually have unique or modified tanks, as opposed to direct copies of other countries. What's worse, is that WG could have a field day with vad yashem if they did. (armored memorial in Israel and rivals Kubinka in terms of variety and number of vehicles). But, the fact remains that with very, very, few exceptions the Israeli tank industry developed and innovated predominantly smoothbore tanks  I double checked and no, I withdraw, they'e got a lot of rifled equipment so I'm going to leave my stupidity in to give you credit where credit's due. (modded 48s, 60s, AMXs, captured soviet stuff). Though, original point stands, that the starting point in the Israeli industry is 52-54, and the tanks you've proposed go up to the early '70s.

I'd also wonder how balance would work for them, because the vast majority (even from how you've tiered them) are upgunned and uparmored compared to their originals (Megachs 105mm l7 vs. M48s 90mm) as well as introducing ERA. If we say the most advanced tank (by design release date) in game is 1961, then around tier 5/6 you're well past the 'cut off' date.

That pessimism aside, I hope you're right and I'm wrong, because the vast majority of the post 1953 tank on tank engagements happened in the Arab-Israeli wars, and there are substancial variants and material there.

the_moidart #20 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 20:30

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Normally I'd say, heck no, we don't need a tree of re-skinned existing tanks, but heck, since they're doing the Chinese tree, they may as well do this tree too. Keep it up, and hold them to the new standard the devs have set for themselves!