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Best Gun for the ARL44?


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Poll: ARL44 Gun Choice (65 members have cast votes)

Which gun do you prefer w/AP?

  1. 105mm 13TR (14 votes [21.54%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.54%

  2. 90mm F3 (13 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  3. 90mm DCA 45 (38 votes [58.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 58.46%

Which gun do you prefer w/APCR?

  1. 105mm 13TR (32 votes [49.23%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.23%

  2. 90mm F3 (10 votes [15.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

  3. 90mm DCA 45 (23 votes [35.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.38%

Vote Hide poll

StormDagger #1 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:19

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Now that the MM is +/- 2 for the ARL44 and it no longer gets placed in matches with tanks above tier VIII I am of the opinion that the 90mm DCA 45 is overkill for pen.  I believe if you are a skilled player the lower pen of the F3 and 13TR can be mitigated.  However I do not have the ability at this time to play test my theory and so I decided to create this thread with the attendant poll.  I did not include HE as I do not feel it is a viable choice as the primary ammo on any of the guns.  I also include the 122mm on the KV-1s for comparison as it is considered by most as the top tier VI heavy.

By the numbers:

VII 105mm 13TR  
RoF 5.61  Acc .41  Aim 2.9
w/ AP Dam 300  Pen 165  DPM 1682
w/APCR Dam 330  Pen 223  DPM 1850

VII 90mm F3
RoF 6.17 Acc .38 Aim 2.3
w/AP Dam 240 Pen 170  DPM 1636
w/APCR Dam 240 Pen 248  DPM 1636

VIII 90mm DCA 45
RoF 6 Acc .36 Aim 2.9
w/AP Dam 240 Pen 212  DPM 1440
w/APCR Dam 240 Pen 259  DPM 1440

VII 122mm D2-5T (KV-1S)
RoF 3.75 Acc .46 Aim 3.4
w/AP Dam 390 Pen 175  DPM 1462.5
w/APCR Dam 390 Pen 217  DPM 1462.5


So, my first consideration is how well the guns perform in pubs using AP.  The second is in TC using, presumably, APCR.  And finally how does the "best" gun on the ARL44 stack up against the 122mm on the KV-1S?

Thoughts?

NavySnipers #2 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:22

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90mm F3 is only good on the 13 90.

Legiondude #3 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:24

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Who in the fark uses the F3 except for the grind

BoltSriker #4 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:26

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View PostStormDagger, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:19, said:

Now that the MM is +/- 2 for the ARL44 and it no longer gets placed in matches with tanks above tier VIII I am of the opinion that the 90mm DCA 45 is overkill for pen.  I believe if you are a skilled player the lower pen of the F3 and 13TR can be mitigated.  However I do not have the ability at this time to play test my theory and so I decided to create this thread with the attendant poll.  I did not include HE as I do not feel it is a viable choice as the primary ammo on any of the guns.  I also include the 122mm on the KV-1s for comparison as it is considered by most as the top tier VI heavy.

By the numbers:

VII 105mm 13TR  
RoF 5.61  Acc .41  Aim 2.9
w/ AP Dam 300  Pen 165  DPM 1682
w/APCR Dam 330  Pen 223  DPM 1850

VII 90mm F3
RoF 6.17 Acc .38 Aim 2.3
w/AP Dam 240 Pen 170  DPM 1636
w/APCR Dam 240 Pen 248  DPM 1636

VIII 90mm DCA 45
RoF 6 Acc .36 Aim 2.9
w/AP Dam 240 Pen 212  DPM 1440
w/APCR Dam 240 Pen 259  DPM 1440

VII 122mm D2-5T (KV-1S)
RoF 3.75 Acc .46 Aim 3.4
w/AP Dam 390 Pen 175  DPM 1462.5
w/APCR Dam 390 Pen 217  DPM 1462.5


So, my first consideration is how well the guns perform in pubs using AP.  The second is in TC using, presumably, APCR.  And finally how does the "best" gun on the ARL44 stack up against the 122mm on the KV-1S?

Thoughts?
always its 90mm gun, the DCA45 is the gun u should aim to get when u get it stock. Not saying tracks,engine,radio and turret aren't important, but after getting all of the lowest exp cost things, get the 90mm DCA-45. In my KV-1S, that 90mm gun is the only one gun that I have trouble with. Even to me, the KV-2's 107 ZiS-6 can  barely match the ARL 90mm DCA-45. Get the 90mm DCA-45 and you will pwn many tanks. Happy Tanking and Good Luck on the Battlefield to all who reads this.  :Smile_Default:

VRMoran #5 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:32

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The 105 in my opinion is the best.

Sure, the 90mm offers a huge amount of penetration, but usually it's just overkill. The 105 still offers a lot of penetration for its tier, but also offers superior alpha damage AND damage per minute over the DCA45.

Case in point? They both take roughly the same amount of time to reload, but you're doing a lot more damage with the 105. The only place where I felt the 90mm had a definitive advantage was at long range....but that aim time is absolutely killer, and ANY movement is going to force you to start over. In theory it's a good sniper weapon, but I found it really difficult to hit anything, and the damage output was just too low to handle CQC at all.

In short, the 105 is going to allow you to damage most things you face harder and faster than the DCA45, and only really falls short at long range (where the dispersion makes the 90mm hard to use unless you're really good) or against really high tiered tanks (which honestly a) are still damage able by the 105 most of the time and b) are not the majority of your targets in most of your matches).


But that's just my opinion and experiences. I loved the ARL-44 a lot, and may have grown biased towards the 105 over my battles. Experiences may differ between players.


EDIT: if you use gold, the F3 is a viable option...more penetration than you'll ever need, plus good accuracy, aim time, and damage output......

BoltSriker #6 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:40

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View PostVRMoran, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:32, said:

The 105 in my opinion is the best.

Sure, the 90mm offers a huge amount of penetration, but usually it's just overkill. The 105 still offers a lot of penetration for its tier, but also offers superior alpha damage AND damage per minute over the DCA45.

Case in point? They both take roughly the same amount of time to reload, but you're doing a lot more damage with the 105. The only place where I felt the 90mm had a definitive advantage was at long range....but that aim time is absolutely killer, and ANY movement is going to force you to start over. In theory it's a good sniper weapon, but I found it really difficult to hit anything, and the damage output was just too low to handle CQC at all.

In short, the 105 is going to allow you to damage most things you face harder and faster than the DCA45, and only really falls short at long range (where the dispersion makes the 90mm hard to use unless you're really good) or against really high tiered tanks (which honestly a) are still damage able by the 105 most of the time and b) are not the majority of your targets in most of your matches).


But that's just my opinion and experiences. I loved the ARL-44 a lot, and may have grown biased towards the 105 over my battles. Experiences may differ between players.


EDIT: if you use gold, the F3 is a viable option...more penetration than you'll ever need, plus good accuracy, aim time, and damage output......
True that the 105mm does have many equalities with the 90mm DCA45. However, 105mm seems more a use as a brawlers such like the 152mm M-10 on the KV-2. Such, the DCA45 is the counterpart of the 107 ZiS-6 on the KV-2. Overall, the 90mm on the ARL 44 seems more better due to the fact that no ARL 44 I've seen in a tier 8 ever pen my back of the Type 59 and other Tier 8's. The 90mm in contrast does a good amounts of damage in such cases and pens better. but in short, I've rarely seen anyone in the 105mm in ARL, but your point does prove a point about the 105 so a +1 for that. :Smile_Default:

Private_Public #7 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:49

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The 105 is ok, but you really limit yourself with it.  The DCA 45 is the way to go.  However, I remember playing and grinding through the tank on the old MatchMaker system and remember being so glad for the DCA 45 that could pen the Tier 9 and 10's it often got matched with.

Kingkrieg #8 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 03:50

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ahhh, back when the ARL 44 got placed in even tier 10 fights, the 212 pen of the dca 45 was utmost necessary to survive, i still remember how painful it was that grind

after the mm fix and buff, the ARL got into a max of tier 8 fights, where still the 212mm pen gun is desirable but not mandatory, i am tempted to rebuy the ARL and equip it with the 105mm cannon, as it deals quite a good amount of alpha, has an average penetration that rivals the kv1s 122mm (but not the alpha) yet it doesnt seem to have trouble when fighting the enemy at close or mid range with said gun. i still remember that it was really annoying when the "accurate" DCA 45 on the arl missed the target on critical moments, in fact i cant recall the gun being too accurate, contrary what the stats advertise, usually going a few degrees off the center mark.

the DCA 45 tho, its an absolute must on the next tank, the AMX M4, as its the arl pre mm buff all over again,

StormDagger #9 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 05:55

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View PostNavySnipers, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:22, said:

90mm F3 is only good on the 13 90.

I would surmise that if it is "good" on a tier VIII tank that gets into matches with tier X tanks then it should also be "good" on a tier VI tank that is matched with tanks no higher than tier VIII.


View PostLegiondude, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:24, said:

Who in the fark uses the F3 except for the grind

Thank you for your insightful commentary.  I'm sure you felt it added something to the conversation.


View PostBoltSriker, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:26, said:

always its 90mm gun, the DCA45 is the gun u should aim to get when u get it stock. Not saying tracks,engine,radio and turret aren't important, but after getting all of the lowest exp cost things, get the 90mm DCA-45. In my KV-1S, that 90mm gun is the only one gun that I have trouble with. Even to me, the KV-2's 107 ZiS-6 can  barely match the ARL 90mm DCA-45. Get the 90mm DCA-45 and you will pwn many tanks. Happy Tanking and Good Luck on the Battlefield to all who reads this.  :Smile_Default:

I find this very hard to believe.  Your 45.5% win rate in the KV-1S would indicate that you have trouble with quite a few guns.  But as a matter of reference the KV-1S has 75mm of frontal armor with a lot of flat surface and the upgraded turret has 100mm of armor both of which can be penned by any of the ARL44 guns including the stock 75mm.

View PostVRMoran, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:32, said:

The 105 in my opinion is the best.

Sure, the 90mm offers a huge amount of penetration, but usually it's just overkill. The 105 still offers a lot of penetration for its tier, but also offers superior alpha damage AND damage per minute over the DCA45.

Case in point? They both take roughly the same amount of time to reload, but you're doing a lot more damage with the 105. The only place where I felt the 90mm had a definitive advantage was at long range....but that aim time is absolutely killer, and ANY movement is going to force you to start over. In theory it's a good sniper weapon, but I found it really difficult to hit anything, and the damage output was just too low to handle CQC at all.

In short, the 105 is going to allow you to damage most things you face harder and faster than the DCA45, and only really falls short at long range (where the dispersion makes the 90mm hard to use unless you're really good) or against really high tiered tanks (which honestly a) are still damage able by the 105 most of the time and b) are not the majority of your targets in most of your matches).

But that's just my opinion and experiences. I loved the ARL-44 a lot, and may have grown biased towards the 105 over my battles. Experiences may differ between players.

EDIT: if you use gold, the F3 is a viable option...more penetration than you'll ever need, plus good accuracy, aim time, and damage output......

This was pretty much my feeling.  Although I think if you use APCR the 105mm is a far superior gun to both of your other options.  With APCR the 105mm out pens the AP on the 90mm DCA 45 and offers both a much higher alpha and DPM.

View PostPrivate_Public, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:49, said:

The 105 is ok, but you really limit yourself with it.  The DCA 45 is the way to go.  However, I remember playing and grinding through the tank on the old MatchMaker system and remember being so glad for the DCA 45 that could pen the Tier 9 and 10's it often got matched with.

The point is that the ARL44 no longer is matched against tier IX/X tanks so the outrageous pen of the DCA 45 is not required.  The only instance where the 90mm DCA 45 is superior is  at very long ranges and even then, as has been pointed out, its dispersion is horrible making it a poor sniper.  The only other situation where the 90mm DCA 45 might be better is for those players that do not know the weak points on opposing tanks but this is easily rectified by simply gaining some tank knowledge.

TexPantego #10 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 06:32

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No such thing as too much pen IMO.

StormDagger #11 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 17:02

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View PostTexPantego, on Oct 24 2012 - 06:32, said:

No such thing as too much pen IMO.

So your saying what?  If its pen at the expense of alpha, rof and dpm then yes there is such a thing as too much.  If you only "need" x amount of pen why sacrifice the other vital stats just to have even more pen?  This was a sacrifice I was willing to make pre-7.5 but its one that is no longer needed.

Clearly 170mm of pen on the F3 is sufficient for a tier VI heavy facing tanks no higher than tier VIII.  The fact that the F3 has the same alpha and a higher rof makes it a better gun for pub matches.  It has only slightly less accuracy and a much better aim time than the DCA 45.  I'd encourage anyone playing the ARL44 to try it out and see if they don't improve their damage ratio per game.

In TC's (or if you have gold to burn on the pubs) the 105mm w/APCR is a vastly superior gun.  It has a significantly higher alpha, dpm and pen than the DCA 45 firing AP (the DCA 45 has a slight edge in pen w/APCR but it doesn't really matter because both have more than enough to pen any tank tier VIII or below).  With the 105mm the ARL44 certainly becomes more of a mid-range/close engagement tank but it is, imo, much better suited to this style of play anyway.  The 105mm w/APCR makes it very competitive with the KV-1S and I'm surprised that they aren't used more often in TC.

I know that the DCA 45 was THE gun at one time, heck I used it.  But the environment has changed so its time to adapt...try changing the gun on your ARL44 and see if it doesn't increase the tank's overall performance.

Private_Public #12 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 18:56

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I would go with the pen.  That way, it makes up for the possibility of the RNG giving you the pure minimum (25% lower) roll on pen and not getting through.

Solinvictus #13 Posted Oct 24 2012 - 22:52

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Always 105. it can pen any tier 8 if you know how to aim and with 8.1 coming soon, I will always carry 5-6 APCR just for frontal assault.

1SLUGGO1 #14 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 05:01

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View PostStormDagger, on Oct 24 2012 - 03:19, said:

So, my first consideration is how well the guns perform in pubs using AP.  The second is in TC using, presumably, APCR.  And finally how does the "best" gun on the ARL44 stack up against the 122mm on the KV-1S?

Thoughts?

Completely different tanks.  The KV-1S is a decently mobile flanker with a massive alpha strike, that can one-shot tier 5 vehicles, and two shot tier 6 vehicles.  That's why it's considered a powerful tank.

The point of the DCA 45, is to give a slow traversing, weak-armored arty target of a tank (other than the ~170mm equivalent upper plate, which no one outside of pea-brained players shoot) more shot opportunities that it would not have with a lower penetration gun.  Why brawl, get close, or flank and risk your tank...when you don't have to.  

It is not much of a sniper weapon, however, due to it's high pen and decent accuracy, it can take a shot from range in a heartbeat.  You can't with most of the other, less accurate guns available.  Unless the ARL-44 has dedicated tanks (in a pub..huh) to protect it's flanks, your not going to fight "up close" in it at all, unless you want to risk being killed by a flanking stock tier 4.

Not even going to consider talking about gold rounds, that's pointless.  Even when your buying them for silver, your not going to be firing them due to the cost, unless you know you'll still make bank.  That is...if you have a standard account like most of the players.

Edited by 1SLUGGO1, Oct 25 2012 - 05:07.


timwahoo #15 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 06:24

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View PostTexPantego, on Oct 24 2012 - 06:32, said:

No such thing as too much pen IMO.
Wrong for the current MM (at least in the SEA server where im always top)

In my onion the 90mm alpha is very important considering the guns aim & reload at the same (awful slow) rate you need to kill the enemy in 2 shots not 3. Pen is good enough for the tier it hardly ever bounces so yes there is too much pen on the top cannon

Private_Public #16 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 07:20

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View Posttimwahoo, on Oct 25 2012 - 06:24, said:

Wrong for the current MM (at least in the SEA server where im always top)

In my onion the 90mm alpha is very important considering the guns aim & reload at the same (awful slow) rate you need to kill the enemy in 2 shots not 3. Pen is good enough for the tier it hardly ever bounces so yes there is too much pen on the top cannon

there is never enough pen

StormDagger #17 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 07:54

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View Post1SLUGGO1, on Oct 25 2012 - 05:01, said:

Completely different tanks.  The KV-1S is a decently mobile flanker with a massive alpha strike, that can one-shot tier 5 vehicles, and two shot tier 6 vehicles.  That's why it's considered a powerful tank.

Yes but they are in direct competition which is why I put the KV-1S gun up for comparison.  I agree with your description of the KV-1S.  My intention was to show that the ARL44 can be competitive with the KV-1S 122mm w/out needing the extreme pen of the DCA 45.

View Post1SLUGGO1, on Oct 25 2012 - 05:01, said:

The point of the DCA 45, is to give a slow traversing, weak-armored arty target of a tank (other than the ~170mm equivalent upper plate, which no one outside of pea-brained players shoot) more shot opportunities that it would not have with a lower penetration gun.  Why brawl, get close, or flank and risk your tank...when you don't have to.  

All of the tanks in the ARL44's class have top tier guns with an average pen of about 160-175.  The F3 has more than enough pen for anyone that takes the time to learn the tanks weak spots that they will be playing against (and the vast majority of tanks the ARL44 faces can be pen'd frontaly regardless).  I absolutely agree that the pen of the DCA 45 was the only thing the ARL44 had going for it prior to the MM change.  The added DPM of the F3 means that the ARL44 becomes a better tank when engaged in medium and close range fights where the DCA 45's slower reload is a liability.

View Post1SLUGGO1, on Oct 25 2012 - 05:01, said:

It is not much of a sniper weapon, however, due to it's high pen and decent accuracy, it can take a shot from range in a heartbeat.  You can't with most of the other, less accurate guns available.  Unless the ARL-44 has dedicated tanks (in a pub..huh) to protect it's flanks, your not going to fight "up close" in it at all, unless you want to risk being killed by a flanking stock tier 4.

Due to the dispersion of the DCA 45 I highly doubt you will be taking any shots "in a heartbeat".  The gun's extreme pen make it "better" at long range shots but with the change in MM not so much better that I'd give up the faster reload and higher DPM of the F3.  And the F3 has a much better aim time while only giving up .02 in accuracy.  When you do get into medium and close range engagements the DCA 45's long reload and greater dispersion coupled with the longer aim time become a very real problem.

View Post1SLUGGO1, on Oct 25 2012 - 05:01, said:

Not even going to consider talking about gold rounds, that's pointless.  Even when your buying them for silver, your not going to be firing them due to the cost, unless you know you'll still make bank.  That is...if you have a standard account like most of the players.

If you read what I posted you will notice I primarily refer to the use of gold rounds in TC.  This is where I think the ARL44 has an advantage.  The 105mm w/APCR outperforms the 122mm in every area except alpha where it is shy by 60 hp.  I agree with you that most players, even with the 8.1 change, will not be firing gold rounds exclusively.  However the 105mm has enough pen to be competitve vs most tier VI and lower tanks and vs many tier VII and VII tanks so if they load a few APCR for the tanks they will have problems with they could, potentially, use the 105mm to great effect in pubs even with a standard account.

HansGrosse #18 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 10:01

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Keep in mind that what I have written below is all purely opinion and the result of my own experiences with the tank.




Long-range combat:
IMO, this tank does its best work from a distance, and contrary to what I've been seeing in this thread my experience with the DCA45 tells me that it is a fairly effective sniper weapon. You should be able to connect with a majority of your shots at ranges out to several hundred meters, and at these longer distances penetration is key because not only does penetration on AP shells drop with distance, but also weak points become much harder to reliably hit. This gun's massive penetration ensures that these are largely non-issues, and its shortcomings are mostly negated at these ranges. I find that the 13TR is not accurate enough to engage at these ranges, and neither the 13TR nor the F3 has the penetration rating to all but guarantee damage against tier 8's over the distances in question. The use of gold rounds does not affect the DCA45's dominance over the other guns at range, as gold rounds tend to lose much more penetrative power over distance than AP rounds do. Essentially, you're wasting money by using gold ammo at these ranges.


Mid-to-close range combat:
For combat at closer ranges, I give the F3 the advantage over the 13TR and DCA45 due to its higher rate of fire, and in the 13TR's case, accuracy once again. I've found aim time to count for a lot in mid-to-close range combat as well, and the WoT wiki lists the aim speed of the F3 to be 2.9 seconds, a full half-second faster than both the 13TR and DCA45, which are both listed at 3.4 seconds. When all is said and done, this gun is much better at rapidly targeting weak points and critical modules, all for the loss of only 40-some-odd DPM versus the 13TR, and a GAIN in DPM over the DCA45. All this being said, I would prioritize the 13TR over the F3 when using gold rounds as primary ammunition, as the DPM increase makes the gun well worth it in this case.




Due to the above, I'm gonna have to go with either the DCA45 or F3 depending on your playstyle. I really can't recommend the 13TR for any situation outside of heavy gold round usage.



Your order of precedence should look something like this:


Using AP:

Prefer Long Range Combat--->  DCA45 > F3 > 13TR

Prefer Mid/Close Range Combat---> F3 > 13TR > DCA45



Using APCR:

Prefer Long Range Combat---> DCA45 > F3 > 13TR

Prefer Mid/Close Range Combat---> 13TR > F3 > DCA45

Elysion #19 Posted Oct 25 2012 - 22:12

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DCA, i played quite a few with both it and the 105, and though the 105s higher damage is nice in some cases, its not nice enough to balance the frustration of not being able to pen at range in t8 games.

Also both guns have terrible dispersion, but the higher accuracy of the DCA means that you can still be somewhat accurate at close range if you need to move a bit and fire before fully settling.

Edited by Elysion, Oct 25 2012 - 22:13.


StormDagger #20 Posted Oct 26 2012 - 09:18

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View PostHansGrosse, on Oct 25 2012 - 10:01, said:

Using AP:

Prefer Long Range Combat--->  DCA45 > F3 > 13TR

Prefer Mid/Close Range Combat---> F3 > 13TR > DCA45

Using APCR:

Prefer Long Range Combat---> DCA45 > F3 > 13TR

Prefer Mid/Close Range Combat---> 13TR > F3 > DCA45

I pretty much agree with this assessment.  The gun determination comes down to 3 things for me, 1) how often will I be sniping from long range vs how often I will be in medium to close range engagements, 2) what style of play am I most comfortable with and 3) can I afford to use gold rounds.

From my personal observation I find that tanks, in general, are involved in medium to close range engagments much more often than they are in position to snipe from long range.  This is not to say that you can't snipe from long range, or even specialize in it, just that its a very niche role which is best exploited on certain maps at specific stages of the battle.  The issue I have with being a sniper is that, ultimately, most engagements devolve into brawling at some point, especially if you are a slow heavy, and I prefer to have a gun that, while not as good at sniping, is much better for medium and close range enagments.

This, of course, is personal preference and probably colors my playstyle with all my tanks.  Even so I feel the F3 is an adequate sniping gun and an effective medium range gun and certainly better for brawling than the DCA 45.  You are correct about the difficulty the F3 w/170mm of pen has with frontally pen'ng some of the tier VIII's.   However this can be largely mitigated with skilled play allowing your tier VIII's to engage them, getting flanking shots or concentrating fire on those targets you know you can pen.  I feel that using AP the F3 is the best gun in pubs for the ARL44 as it is better all around and still offers adequate sniping ability.

The 105mm w/APCR is a beast of a gun.  But the cost is prohibitive.  I still think a skilled player could use the 105mm w/AP and carry a few APCR rounds for those "hard" targets.  Still even with APCR I don't feel this gun makes for a good sniper so unless you are more comfortable closing with the enemy (as I am) its probably not the gun for you. That said if the ARL44 is used in TC vs the KV-1S I think the 105mm w/APCR is the only way to go.