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Ferdinand Camo Test (updated 2010.11.22.)


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Cifu #1 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 01:19

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UPDATED in 2010.11.22! With the new information about the cover and visibility system, i re-check, and noted i was doing wrong of the bush-test.

After some bizarre in game experience with my "new" Ferdi, i decide to ask my friends (andraspp and Peter_Waffen, i gratefully thank their help) to help me make a test about the Ferdi camouflage.

In short: by my knowledge, the TD's get a bonus for camouflage, but the Ferdi (w/ ISU-152) and the JagdTiger are excluded from this bonus. But nowhere i read about the camouflage are actually wont work with the Ferdi. I'm had a good time with JagdPanzer IV. with camo net and camouflage skilled crew. I read HeroEnVec test about the JagdPanther camo bug. So i do a different playstyle with the JagdPanther (maybe can be called "rush-panther"), and enjoyed that quite well. But i reach the Ferdi, and take the next step.

So, i retrain my JagdPanzer IV. crew (camo skilled) for Ferdi, and play. And get nervous. In many battles i'm getting shooted even if i'm not seen any enemy. Even if my commander is 100%, and got optics, plus Camo net. Okay, perhaps the secondary skills are won't be working until the crew get the main skill 100%. Reached the 100% main skill, and there is 60%+ camouflage secondary skill for 4 crewmember. But it's keep discover me even if i'm think i'm in a best hiding position.

The setup:

Karelia map, i hide a bush front of the starting point.

Myself:
Ferdinand with 100% commander, and 4 more 100% crew member, 4 of them have camouflage skill (77%, 69%, 69% and 88%). The Ferdi is equipped with Camoflage Net and Binocular.

The "opponents" are:

Panther with 100% crew, no optical device  
VK3002(DB) with 100% crew, no optical device
KV-3 with 100% crew (except one of the loader, not count in this case), no optical device
Pz.IV. with 80% crew, no optical device
Leopard with 86%(+5% ventillator) crew, equipped with binocular

The test are taken several close-ups, to determine the exact range, but the abberation is very small.

The findings are devastating.

The Panther seen me from ~330 meters.
The VK3002(DB) seen me from ~310 meters.
The KV-3 seen me from ~310 meters.
The Pz.IV seen me from ~310 meters.
The Leopard without binocular (so normal close-up) seen me from ~310 meters.
The Leopard with binocular (so slowly come closer, stop, wait 6 secs, and repeat this until i showed up) seen me from ~400 meters.
The Leopard with binocular (standing, i'm closing) seen me from ~400 meters. (note: this mean the hiding in bush means nothing!)


The test are show the camo net are not help any kind, with or without, the spotting distance are only marginally differs. We find there is no effect nor the bush, nor the camo net for the spotting range.

Re-check test

After the findings of the russian WoT forum, i have the feeling i was doing wrong the test. So we made a new one, with the help of Peter_waffen.

The test setup:

Ferdinand:
100% Crew, with and without camo net. 4 crew member have camouflage skill (89%, 84%, 84% and 96%).
50% Crew, with camo net, no camouflage skill.

Hummel spotter:
100% Crew, no optics or binocular.

The proper use of the bush:

Posted Image

Open field:

Ferdi with 100% crew, without camo net: 372m
Ferdi with 100% crew, with camo net: 370m
Ferdi with 50% crew, with camo net: 370m

Hided in Bush:

Ferdi with 100% crew, without camo net: 150m
Ferdi with 100% crew, with camo net: 150m
Ferdi with 50% crew, with camo net: 150m

Consequence:

-Need to be cleared the Ferdi is capable to "hide" or not. (Our findings is showed it's won't)
-If the camouflage system is bugged, then need to be noted.
-If the camouflage system is working as intended, then need to remove the Camo net from the Ferdi (and other affected vehicles) equipment list.
-If the camouflage system is working as intended, then need to WARN the player if they want to train their affected vehicle crew to camouflage skill.
-We find out by the re-check the bush-tests are doing wrong, the Ferdinand gain the bush cover bonus!
-However, the re-check are showed the camo net are not working!


Opinions and counter-opinions are welcomed.  

Below the pictures of the test (my crew, and my taken pictures of the "enemy" vehicles distance).
Note: the Panther and the VK3002(DB) are can be seen together in the pictures, but they remain outside of their spotting range, and wait until other vehicle take their part of the test.
Note2: The shot115.jpg show an interesting bug (?), i turn my back on the "enemy", and ask me to shoot. One of the hit (which are coming from the back!) is actually knock out the gun!

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6597/shot115.th.jpg

Jaynen #2 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 01:49

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View PostCifu, on Nov 16 2010 - 01:19, said:

After some bizarre in game experience with my "new" Ferdi, i decide to ask my friends (andraspp and Peter_Waffen, i gratefully thank their help) to help me make a test about the Ferdi camouflage.

In short: by my knowledge, the TD's get a bonus for camouflage, but the Ferdi (w/ ISU-152) and the JagdTiger are excluded from this bonus. But nowhere i read about the camouflage are actually wont work with the Ferdi. I'm had a good time with JagdPanzer IV. with camo net and camouflage skilled crew. I read HeroEnVec test about the JagdPanther camo bug. So i do a different playstyle with the JagdPanther (maybe can be called "rush-panther"), and enjoyed that quite well. But i reach the Ferdi, and take the next step.

So, i retrain my JagdPanzer IV. crew (camo skilled) for Ferdi, and play. And get nervous. In many battles i'm getting shooted even if i'm not seen any enemy. Even if my commander is 100%, and got optics, plus Camo net. Okay, perhaps the secondary skills are won't be working until the crew get the main skill 100%. Reached the 100% main skill, and there is 60%+ camouflage secondary skill for 4 crewmember. But it's keep discover me even if i'm think i'm in a best hiding position.

The setup:

Karelia map, i hide a bush front of the starting point.

Myself:
Ferdinand with 100% commander, and 4 more 100% crew member, 4 of them have camouflage skill (77%, 69%, 69% and 88%). The Ferdi is equipped with Camoflage Net and Binocular.

The "opponents" are:

Panther with 100% crew, no optical device  
VK3002(DB) with 100% crew, no optical device
KV-3 with 100% crew (except one of the loader, not count in this case), no optical device
Pz.IV. with 80% crew, no optical device
Leopard with 86%(+5% ventillator) crew, equipped with binocular

The test are taken several close-ups, to determine the exact range, but the abberation is very small.

The findings are devastating.

The Panther seen me from ~330 meters.
The VK3002(DB) seen me from ~310 meters.
The KV-3 seen me from ~310 meters.
The Pz.IV seen me from ~310 meters.
The Leopard without binocular (so normal close-up) seen me from ~310 meters.
The Leopard with binocular (so slowly come closer, stop, wait 6 secs, and repeat this until i showed up) seen me from ~400 meters.
The Leopard with binocular (standing, i'm closing) seen me from ~400 meters. (note: this mean the hiding in bush means nothing!)

The test are show the camo net are not help any kind, with or without, the spotting distance are only marginally differs. We find there is no effect nor the bush, nor the camo net for the spotting range.

Consequence:

-Need to be cleared the Ferdi is capable to "hide" or not. (Our findings is showed it's won't)
-If the camouflage system is bugged, then need to be noted.
-If the camouflage system is working as intended, then need to remove the Camo net from the Ferdi (and other affected vehicles) equipment list.
-If the camouflage system is working as intended, then need to WARN the player if they want to train their affected vehicle crew to camouflage skill.

Opinions and counter-opinions are welcomed.  

Below the pictures of the test (my crew, and my taken pictures of the "enemy" vehicles distance).
Note: the Panther and the VK3002(DB) are can be seen together in the pictures, but they remain outside of their spotting range, and wait until other vehicle take their part of the test.
Note2: The shot115.jpg show an interesting bug (?), i turn my back on the "enemy", and ask me to shoot. One of the hit (which are coming from the back!) is actually knock out the gun!

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
Posted Image

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6597/shot115.th.jpg

Very interesting. I wonder how many tanks are effected

tumbitiger #3 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 02:03

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good investigation +1

Professor #4 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 02:15

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If you were stationary for 6 seconds, and even they saw you despite that then we got a problem

Hazardz #5 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 03:13

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Did you have a Ferdi before the latest patch?

It used to be an incredibly hard tank to spot and could remain hidden when tanks were within 50m of it so this is not how i used to experience spotting one. My feeling is that maybe the patch has messed with camo ability on this tank so that it is equally as broken as JagdTiger camo.

Cifu #6 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 07:14

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View PostHazardz, on Nov 16 2010 - 03:13, said:

Did you have a Ferdi before the latest patch?

It used to be an incredibly hard tank to spot and could remain hidden when tanks were within 50m of it so this is not how i used to experience spotting one. My feeling is that maybe the patch has messed with camo ability on this tank so that it is equally as broken as JagdTiger camo.

Yes, but only play in a few days, so i can't really say it's affected by the patch or no. That's one of the reason i'm waiting opinions and counter-opinions in this matter. If this kind of spotting problem only exits after the patch, then perhaps the devs can eaiser find the cause, and solve it.

Peter_Waffen #7 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 10:08

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with pleasure :-)

Penpenn #8 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 14:25

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Heh.

A bit disheartening and amusing at the same time.

Mainly because I assumed by feel only that every German TD from JagdPanther and upwards has a broken camo on it, without even driving the Ferdi or JagdTiger, just by observing.
And because it seems I was right <.<

Its especially annoying that the bugged camo on JagdPanther has been known for freaking ages, and still not getting any fixes <.<


Now training up to ISU-152.

_Saracen_ #9 Posted Nov 16 2010 - 17:21

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Camo net and camo secondary skill on its crew still work for the JagdPanther its just a very small bonus than it should be in comparison to other TD's. Sooo in essence its still advantagous to use camo net and train your crew in camo skill.

Just... a very small advantage.



There was a thread somewhere where someone tested it out post patch.

Malexa #10 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 11:26

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Perhaps that bush didn't count as a bush? Maybe do some more tests try to hide in different locations? My E8 sherman seems better at hiding than my TDs however (got a jagdpanther and ferdinand). The sherman is a very small tank however.

The ferdinand is still a rather big vehicle, maybe the bush was too small. This sort of sucks that they refuse to add any indicator if you're hidden or not. I don't mean if anyones detected you but if you're actually sitting in a bush or not. Hard to tell if the bush is big enough to adequately cover your tank or not.

Since panther has 460 spotting distance it seems like you're roughly 28% harder to detect.

Cifu #11 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 11:42

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View PostMalexa, on Nov 17 2010 - 11:26, said:

Perhaps that bush didn't count as a bush? Maybe do some more tests try to hide in different locations? My E8 sherman seems better at hiding than my TDs however (got a jagdpanther and ferdinand). The sherman is a very small tank however.

The ferdinand is still a rather big vehicle, maybe the bush was too small. This sort of sucks that they refuse to add any indicator if you're hidden or not. I don't mean if anyones detected you but if you're actually sitting in a bush or not. Hard to tell if the bush is big enough to adequately cover your tank or not.

Since panther has 460 spotting distance it seems like you're roughly 28% harder to detect.

There is a picture about how i'm hide (or click here, if you don't see the pictures). The bush is large enough to cover the Ferdi.

The theoretical spotting distance are not equal the effective spotting distance, i have 500 meters theoretical spotting distance (420 meters base, plusz binocular (+25%), which mean i reach the maximized 500 meters), but seen the closing opponents from only ~430-450 meters.

And notice i'm was seen the same distance by the Leopard, ~400 meters if "hiding" the bush, and around 400 meters when i'm closing him.

Ver7igo #12 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 11:45

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Well done for testing, +1 as well.
Now checking the other thread to see if the JP has been fixed after new patch  :unsure:

Cifu #13 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 12:05

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View PostVer7igo, on Nov 17 2010 - 11:45, said:

Well done for testing, +1 as well.
Now checking the other thread to see if the JP has been fixed after new patch  :unsure:

I'm not seen any kind of mention in the patch note, perhaps worth a try testing the JP too.

Penpenn #14 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 12:18

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I can lend my JP for testing purposes anyday. 100% crew, everyone has camo as first skill. Its not terribly high yet due to decreased playtime in that tank. But it has empty module slot to either mount the Binocs or Camo which I both have, other two modules are Rammer and Ventilation.

Cifu #15 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 13:03

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Maybe it's a good idea to make a "Test-battle" (training battle with many person, only for this kind of tests) with many different tanks and equipment, but i don't know it's worth the effort.

If the devs know about the problem, and know what is the problem, then it's only make clear to us what kind or problem we are facing.

That's why i'm hope some kind of response from the devs. But at least as i know, the exact devs are won't read this forum, only the Wargaming.net staff.

Malexa #16 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 13:46

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Ahh well, don't expect it to get fixed anytime soon (if ever). I've noticed there has been many of these topics and we've gotten no confirmation of this bug. I guess we should all start playing russian heavies.

Think I'll quit playing my ferdinand, and focus on the IS. Actually maybe I'll start focusing on WoW instead, doesn't seem they care about fixing anything in this game except nerfing non russian tanks.

Cifu #17 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 16:01

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Sorrowly i can't do anything today (well, i have to work... as everyone else :D), but tomorrow we can make a training battle, for testing a bit more. What kind of time is suitable? 5PM GMT for example (i can make some free time, so can be earlier or later too)? I don't want to strech too much, so i belive around 15 minutes is enough to do what we want to do.  

JLZ and Penpenn are noted, anyone else who want to take part please contact me or post in this topic (please write down what kind of tank/equipment you want to take, and what time is suitable for you).

Edit:
-Penpenn (5PM GMT (+/- one hour?, if needed), JagdPanther (Camo net, some Camo skill)
-Cifu (5PM GMT (+/- one hour, if needed)), JagdPanther (Binocular/Camo net, no Camo skill) and Ferdi (Binocular or Camo net, 4x camo skill (70%+))

Penpenn #18 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 16:46

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5PM GMT should be good for me since I'm at GMT+2

Should be able to adjust a bit too, to earlier or later.

Cifu #19 Posted Nov 17 2010 - 19:23

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Roger and thanks for the helpfull will.  :Smile_honoring:

Cifu #20 Posted Nov 18 2010 - 15:39

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Well, at least we know the Devs are working on this matter. Overlord comment.




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