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JagdPanther Vs SU122-44 Comparison

SU-122-44 Comparison JagdPanther

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Poll: JG Vs SU12244 (54 members have cast votes)

Do you agree with me that the SU seems to have many more Advantages compared to the JG?

  1. Clearly. (27 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  2. Nope. (14 votes [25.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

  3. I think they are balanced to each other. (13 votes [24.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.07%

If the SU should be nerfed how so?

  1. Gun. (Slower Reload, etc.) (12 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  2. Hull. (Less Hitpoint, Slower, etc.) (7 votes [12.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.96%

  3. Some other category. (3 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  4. I think its fine the way it is. (32 votes [59.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.26%

Does the JG need a Buff if the SU is going to remain the way it is?

  1. Yep. (22 votes [40.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.74%

  2. Nope. (32 votes [59.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.26%

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RandomDying #1 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:13

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I only have the Jadg, though I've noticed that the new Premium Russian TD (SU122-44) looks basically like a Russian clone of it... but I'm surprised by the stats on it and how many unfair advantages it receives compared to the Jadg.  So heres some comparison facts to make my case, Either BUFF the JGpant or NERF the SU122-44...
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/SU-122-44
http://wiki.worldoft...com/Jagdpanther

Guns:
Jg: VIII  10,5 cm PaK 45 L/52  40  320/320/420 HP  200/244/60 mm  1,030 Credits/10 Gold/650 Credits 7.32r/m 0.34m 1.7s  -8°/+14°  16,800  116,490 Credits  3,000 kg
SU: VIII  122 mm D-25S (Wedge Breech)  35  390/390/465 HP  175/217/64 mm  1,025 Credits/12 Gold/608 Credits 7.5r/m 0.41m 2.9s  -4°/+16°  ---  ---  2,590 kg

Size: The SU uses a 122mm compared to the 105mm on the Jg 16% bigger diameter, yet this bigger gun weighs 410kg less.. 13% less.
Damage: 320 on the 105mm vs 390 on the 122mm, 70 damage difference 22% more damage per hit.
RoF: 7.32r/m on the 105mm vs 7.5r/m on the 122mm, 0.18 difference, 2.5% faster though this translate to:
Damage Per Minute: 320x7.32 = 2342.4 on the 105mm VS 390x7.5= 2925.... 582.6 dpm difference...  25% better...
Ammo capacity... the Jg can carry 5 more rounds... so only a 14% advantage there, though in most battles rarely does one deplete themselves that low.
Penetration AP: 200 on the Jg, 175 on the SU, so the Jg gets 25 more 14% advantage
Penetration Prem: 244 on the Jg, 217 on the SU, so the Jg gets 27more 12.5% advantage, though considering that the SU is Premium it is much more profitable thus can afford these rounds more easily.
So in most cases it will be 200 regular round of the Jg vs the 217 Prem round of the SU meaning the SU gets 17mm more pen 8.5% advantage.
Aim Time: 1.7s on the Jg, 2.9s on the SU: 1.2s faster aim time so the JG has a 41% advantage here, though I consider reload time far more important especially since most battles take place within 300 meters.
Accuracy: 0.34m on the Jg, 0.41m on the SU: 0.07 advantage to Jg. 17% better for the Jg though as stated above many battles take place up close and personal.
Ammunition cost: Jg pays 25cred more (negligble) though the Jg pays about 800less cred per Prem round (though as I stated above, SU should be more profitable in the long run).


So the SU does much more damage and damage per minute, has about the same penetration since it can more easily use Prem rounds with its added profitability.  The JG only has the advantage in long range sniping.

Hull:
Hitpoints: Jg=850hp, SU=840hp so 10hp more for the Jg (Huge difference) 1%
Front Armor: Jg has 80mm, the SU has 90mm, 10 more for the SU 12.5%
Side Armor: Jg = 50mm, SU = 75mm, 25 more...  50% more! Side armor is huge for a TD since they will usually get easily flanked by enemies.
Rear Armor: Jg = 40mm, SU = 45mm, 5 more... 12.5%
From the look of it, the SU is smaller, thus slightly lower profile and better angling to maximize its armor's effectiveness.
Weight: Jg = 45-49T, SU = 33-35T... The SU weighs 14T less... Why are they even considered in the same tier... or have almost exactly the same Hit points?
Horsepower: Jg= 750hp, SU = 500hp (lets not forget the SU is 5% less likely to catch fire as well.)
Power/Weight: JG= 750/49T= 15.3 SU= 500/35T= 14.3, Jg has 7% better power/weight.
Top Speed: JG=46km/h, SU=47.5km/h 1.5km/h meaning about 3%
Traverse Speed: JG= 29d/s, SU = 42d/s... 13d/s advantage for SU, 45%! Turning speed is Critical for TDs...
Radio: Jg gets 10 more meters... big whoop.
View Range: Jg=350, SU=330, 20 more for JG about 6% advantage.  Though without comparable Camo numbers I can't tell if this small advantage would mean much since usually Russian TDs are given Klingon technology...
Crew: SU doesn't have a Radio Operator... so basically it doesn't have a useless member that really doesnt provide much in terms of great Perks (espcially since this isn't a scout).  Having one less member means that carrying a Med Pack covers 1/4 of your team compared to 1/5 in the JG, so I see this as another SU advantage.

Basically the SU is more nimble on its feet in terms of turning, has more armor, basically the same Hit point pool, less likely to catch fire, a better crew, slightly less view range/radio and power weight ratio...

So not only does the SU get a clear advantage in terms of its gun but also its hull, not to mention its profitability.  I was under the impression that Premium tanks were suppose to be on par with maxed out tanks of their tier, not completely outclass them... If you see from my comparison there is more Russian Red in most of the categories and where the JG has the advantage its usually at a lesser % and in categories that don't really matter for a TD.

I think the SU needs a nerf, probably in terms of its Hitpoint pool (about 100hp) and Traverse speed (down to 35d/s), thus it can retain the Gun but at the expense of a weaker more vulnerable hull.  Or I'm sure some people would like to see the opposite, nerf the gun and keep the hull as is.  A third solution could be to rework it to be a tier6 TD comparable more to a D. Max.  And ofcourse the 4th solution would be to Buff the Jg to compete better against the SU... but since the SU is the new comer I feel it should be the one to be balanced better into the game.

Edited: Changed Red to Yellow since I guess its only mods for some odd reason... Why even let normal players able to select the color if its a waste of time using it lol....

Edited by RandomDying, Nov 06 2012 - 01:27.


hiipanda #2 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:15

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change the red font

VRMoran #3 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:16

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You could also compare it to the T25 AT and the french TD. All 4 are very similar in design and application. The Su-122 does have a few drawbacks, but overall it's a very powerful machine, pretty much on par with the competition.

MisterPatriot #4 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:17

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It seems all tier 7 TD's look and play similar except for that odd T25/2.

RandomDying #5 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:17

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View Posthiipanda, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:15, said:

change the red font
Sorry was using Gray to reflect German Iron Cross, and Red for the Soviets ofcourse :)

View PostVRMoran, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:16, said:

You could also compare it to the T25 AT and the french TD. All 4 are very similar in design and application. The Su-122 does have a few drawbacks, but overall it's a very powerful machine, pretty much on par with the competition.
True, but just looking at the them, they both look very much a like on the outside.

hiipanda #6 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:21

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View PostRandomDying, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:17, said:

Sorry was using Gray to reflect German Iron Cross, and Red for the Soviets ofcourse :)

mods don't care for your reasons change it before they do it for you

VRMoran #7 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:21

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View PostRandomDying, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:17, said:

True, but just looking at the them, they both look very much a like on the outside.

I did a preliminary comparison of all four in this guide I made http://forum.worldof...m-vehicles-v81/

What I found was the the Su-122 was slower and less heavily armored, but only slightly. It's about as large as the T-25, and probably carries a slightly better camo bonus (thanks to the fact that it's Soviet). The gun has the lowest accuracy and penetration, but this is more than compensated for by the damage output. The difference between it and the AMX TD is just appalling.

Scudy75 #8 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:23

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SU 122 44 is fine as it is. Its not much of a problem since you do not seem them often. (Only saying this because I love it too much and no nerfs wanted here).  :Smile-playing:

Skringly #9 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:25

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Considering a Prem tank is supposed to be worse off than it's counterparts, I am just not seeing it here.

Friendorpho #10 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:26

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It is fast, agile, stealthy and has insane DPM for it's tier. However it is only about as effective as a Tier 7 SU-100. I voted to leave it unchanged, but if it came down to it I'd say nerf the rate of fire.

RandomDying #11 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:30

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View PostSkringly, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:25, said:

Considering a Prem tank is supposed to be worse off than it's counterparts, I am just not seeing it here.
Exactly, I mean they should be at least ON par with their counterparts...

View PostFriendorpho, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:26, said:

It is fast, agile, stealthy and has insane DPM for it's tier. However it is only about as effective as a Tier 7 SU-100. I voted to leave it unchanged, but if it came down to it I'd say nerf the rate of fire.
Ofcourse it can have that agility... but to also have the same Armor/Hitpoints??? And like you said its DPM is pretty ridic for tier7.  How many other tanks can kill a Maus in about a minute without ammo racking it...

Edited by RandomDying, Nov 06 2012 - 01:30.


hiipanda #12 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:36

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You're comparing a tank that is meant to support from a  distance to a td that needs to hang with meds because of poor aim time and accuracy.(su-44 can support from a distance, but the jpanther is better suited for that) You discount the poor depression, but that means the td has trouble defending areas with hills and gives the jpanther the ability to take positions the su-44 can't.

INKRO #13 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:38

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The problem with your comparison is that the majority of those things don't really matter. Things like gun weights are completely arbitrary in this game, for credit tanks they're just speedbumps that usually force you to grab a suspension upgrade, for premium tanks they're just fluff.

Having said that the problem with the SU-122-44 isn't when it's compared with the JP, but rather with the SU-152. Unless I'm grinding through it, it doesn't seem like the 152 is worth it, the 122-44 doesn't really fall down when it comes to the gun with a non-derp SU, and it seems to be better in pretty much every single way. Premium tanks don't work like that, they shouldn't be better than comparable elite credit tanks like it seems to be here. The last time this happened with the Type, the semi-comparable T-44 got buffed to compensate(though the -44 needed it in general).

I have the feeling that it would have made a better T8 TD on the fast Russian TD line than the SU-101.

Edited by INKRO, Nov 06 2012 - 01:40.


RandomDying #14 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:39

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View PostScudy75, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:23, said:

SU 122 44 is fine as it is. Its not much of a problem since you do not seem them often. (Only saying this because I love it too much and no nerfs wanted here).  :Smile-playing:
SRY! I know you paid money but I'm just bring up some blatant advantages it has for its tier.

View Posthiipanda, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:36, said:

You're comparing a tank that is meant to support from a  distance to a td that needs to hang with meds because of poor aim time and accuracy.(su-44 can support from a distance, but the jpanther is better suited for that) You discount the poor depression, but that means the td has trouble defending areas with hills and gives the jpanther the ability to take positions the su-44 can't.
Most maps are very close quarters... And I've used the Jgpant many times and there are many cliffs/hills positions that are impossible to use with the JG as well, let alone trying to attempt hull down is near impossible as well, so basically I see them as using the same exact positions for the most part.

Edited by RandomDying, Nov 06 2012 - 01:40.


Rypper #15 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:41

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"About the same penetration"?

As one who used both guns rather extensively (Tiger H, SU-152) allow me to say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

RandomDying #16 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:41

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View PostINKRO, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:38, said:

The problem with your comparison is that the majority of those things don't really matter. Things like gun weights are completely arbitrary in this game, for credit tanks they're just speedbumps that usually force you to grab a suspension upgrade, for premium tanks they're just fluff.

Having said that the problem with the SU-122-44 isn't when it's compared with the JP, but rather with the SU-152. Unless I'm grinding through it, it doesn't seem like the 152 is worth it, the 122-44 doesn't really fall down when it comes to the gun with a non-derp SU, and it seems to be better in pretty much every single way. Premium tanks don't work like that, they shouldn't be better than comparable elite credit tanks like it seems to be here. The last time this happened with the Type, the semi-comparable T-44 got buffed to compensate(though the -44 needed it in general).

I have the feeling that it would have made a better T8 TD on the fast Russian TD line than the SU-101.
Exactly my points, this premium has clear advantage compared its tier, sry I didn't use the 152 since I only have experience with the Jg.

RandomDying #17 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:43

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View PostRypper, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:41, said:

"About the same penetration"?

As one who used both guns rather extensively (Tiger H, SU-152) allow me to say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes Clearly someone with over 7k battles and rated over 1600 with 57% win rate currently has no clue how this game works.

BINGOBANGLEDANGLE #18 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:43

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i have both tds and thus far i still prefer the JP. The advantage in accuracy is the deal breaker for me. keeping ur distance in a td is key. So havin to get so close with the SU is counter productive to that. The SU needs med support or encountering small numbers. Neither are sluggers. WIth the Jp i have the ability to discourage or prevent attackers from advancing at greater distances so by the time they get close or if they get close they can just be picked off.

Rypper #19 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:49

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View PostRandomDying, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:43, said:

Yes Clearly someone with over 7k battles and rated over 1600 with 57% win rate currently has no clue how this game works.

I don't care how many games you have or what your WR is. 175 vs 200 mm is a big difference, especially for a TD. So are aim time and accuracy.

It's stupid stuff like ammo capacity, gun weight and shell diameter that don't matter. Why you don't compare Tiger H to IS, if aim time and pen doesn't matter, while you're at it. IS looks infinitely better, if we stick to your criteria.

RandomDying #20 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 01:57

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View PostRypper, on Nov 06 2012 - 01:49, said:

I don't care how many games you have or what your WR is. 175 vs 200 mm is a big difference, especially for a TD. So are aim time and accuracy.

It's stupid stuff like ammo capacity, gun weight and shell diameter that don't matter. Why you don't compare Tiger H to IS, if aim time and pen doesn't matter, while you're at it. IS looks infinitely better, if we stick to your criteria.
Because the IS is BETTER lol... whats ur point? The point I'm trying to make is that certain tanks from certain nations are a bit "above average."