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Pz4 vs KV-1


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awookie #1 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 18:51

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http://wiki.worldoftanks.eu/PzKpfw_IV (Notice the lack of the 7.5cm L70)

Look, I'm not trying to start a troll flame thread here.  - rep is gone, so I'm not rep farming.

All I would like to point out is that there's something seriously wrong here.  Germany is constantly getting the nerf bat WITH a net loss.  How?  The KV lost the 152mm derpaherp and the 107mm, but it recieves more favorable MM and later only encounters +-2 spread with the new MM.  Using the 122mm, it can still 1 shot or troll tanks on the same tier, or 2 tiers up.  That's a net win for the KV.  For the Pz4, its a net loss.  Loses the L70 which puts it on even ground with the KV.  Keeps the same MM.  The Pz4 which gets the L70 and 135mm pen gets moved up to TIER 6.  The KV-1 is now going to dominate low tier games, no doubt about that.  Why would you use the Pz4 over a KV-1 with the 57mm or 85mm?  The KV1 is less mobile, but has more overall armor.  Its a solid vehicle all around.  The Pz4 has a decent front, but has weak sides.  The Pz4 derp can be seen as better due to a higher ROF, but its mounted on a much more frail platform.    The 85mm is a bit less accurate and slower firing, but the higher damage + the KVs strong armor puts the P4 at a disadvantage.

Before the nerfs, the KV and PZ4 were tied.  While the KV was clearly stronger, it gets shafted in the MM.  Before the PZ4 nerf, they were on even ground.  This isn't the case now.

Legiondude #2 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 18:54

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> Comparing a medium to a heavy
> Error 404: Logic not found

MisterPatriot #3 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 18:58

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View PostLegiondude, on Nov 06 2012 - 18:54, said:

> Comparing a medium to a heavy
> Error 404: Logic not found
LOL.

But Germany doesn't get any heavies until tier 7...

MaxMike #4 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:01

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KV-1 = heavy tank

PzIV = medium tank

The KV should be clearly stronger... having said that the PzIV can now two shot a KV-1 from any direction using credit for gold ammo.

PzIV now with just 5 rounds gold ammo per match is a beast that can kill any tier 5 heavy it sees AND KV-1S with two shots, so poor mouthing over the loss of the L/70 don't impress.

ManyNames #5 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:02

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View PostLegiondude, on Nov 06 2012 - 18:54, said:

> Comparing a medium to a heavy
> Error 404: Logic not found

And we have a winner!

awookie #6 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:10

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View PostMaxMike, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:01, said:

KV-1 = heavy tank

PzIV = medium tank

The KV should be clearly stronger... having said that the PzIV can now two shot a KV-1 from any direction using credit for gold ammo.

PzIV now with just 5 rounds gold ammo per match is a beast that can kill any tier 5 heavy it sees AND KV-1S with two shots, so poor mouthing over the loss of the L/70 don't impress.

If I find anyone with gold rounds in a pub, then ill call you up and congratulate you on your superb argument skills.
If not, then read this.

Gold rounds make this tank good means that VK3601H konisch = OP because of gold rounds

View PostLegiondude, on Nov 06 2012 - 18:54, said:

> Comparing a medium to a heavy
> Error 404: Logic not found

Please show me a tier 5 German heavy then.  Germany doesn't get a heavy until T6 (Well, its not really a heavy, but it plays like one).  Mediums can compete with heavies.  In fact, they should.  Its called flanking.  Its called individual tank traits that put one vehicle at an advanatage over the other in certain situations.

And why can't you compare a medium to a heavy?  Some tanks don't always fill in exact roles due to their classification.  Since the T110E5 is a heavy, it should lead the front of the assault instead of staying back, right?  Does that mean that the Vk3601H isnt suited to leading the fight?  Tigers should be up front in the battle because it's a heavy.

M4 Sherman vs KV-1.

The M4 could win if it flanks due to its mobility and fairly strong gun.  The M4 can win if it gets the advantage via flanking, or long range.  However, the KV has more raw damage with the 122mm U11.

Edited by awookie, Nov 06 2012 - 19:17.


venomjoe #7 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:10

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PZIV FTW!

All33333 #8 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:11

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Heavy>Medium
You cant compare the different classes

KiwiHaqi #9 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:13

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View Postawookie, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:10, said:

If I find anyone with gold rounds in a pub, then ill call you up and congratulate you on your superb argument skills.
If not, then read this.

Gold rounds make this tank good means that VK3601H konisch = OP because of gold rounds
i play all gold in my kv-2 and mid tier
derps,in fact,i uses to do it back in like 7.4,just for the lolz,i'll try get some replays up

Legiondude #10 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:13

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View PostM18HellCat, on Nov 06 2012 - 18:58, said:

LOL.

But Germany doesn't get any heavies until tier 7...
True, and that is a travesty to the tree in comparison with the others. But saying the Panzer IV should be this armored beast that should singlehandedly match and sweep the BDR/T1/KV-1 goes against the whole point of listing it as a medium tank.

Before the "nerf" it was an anti-heavy, now it's simply a medium.

ManyNames #11 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:14

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People seem to enjoy comparing Apples to Oranges.

http://t1.gstatic.co...zcQFCJGLpivkp8R

Dogsoldier6 #12 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:15

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Seriously? Comparing a Heavy to a Medium?

Why no German Heavy tanks in the low tiers?
Um the Germans didn't build or design any out side the silly GrosseTracktor, which was a pre-war POS. If WG introduced it I can already hear the German-Phobias screaming it was a POS, afterall the Germans never built anything that was a POS right?

The Gun Nerf and Russian Bias
This one drives me nuts, it really does. First off it is an adjustment for the new MM of +/-2. Second my SU-85 lost its 107mm, my T-34-85 lost its 100mm, and my T-43 lost its 100mm. I didn't hear anyone screaming about it, nobody. Not even me.

Better MM placement.
You have got to be kidding me. Can you even read the MM chart WG released? Did you even glance at it. Oh yea I forgot it is that secret Russian Bias nerf.

:Smile_sceptic:

tiadashi #13 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:15

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You do know you can buy gold rounds for credits now right?

MaxMike #14 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:17

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View Postawookie, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:10, said:

If I find anyone with gold rounds in a pub, then ill call you up and congratulate you on your superb argument skills.
If not, then read this.

Gold rounds make this tank good means that VK3601H konisch = OP because of gold rounds

Huh? Pay attention gold rounds for credits. There are plenty of people using gold on the PzIV currently.

Read this.

If you are not carrying a handful of gold rounds on a PzIV or Sherman quite frankly you need your head examined. If you carry five gold rounds and use them judiciously on tier 5 heavies or even better tier 6 tanks you are pretty much guaranteed 1500-2000 hp in damage on just those five rounds and you will not lose money.

Legiondude #15 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:18

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View PostDogsoldier6, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:15, said:

Seriously? Comparing a Heavy to a Medium?

Why no German Heavy tanks in the low tiers?
Um the Germans didn't build or design any out side the silly GrosseTracktor, which was a pre-war POS. If WG introduced it I can already hear the German-Phobias screaming it was a POS, afterall the Germans never built anything that was a POS right?
They had a handful of designs, but I'm not sure what could fill the tier 5 requirement in terms of armor and firepower the way the other tier 5 heavies do. They do have at least 1 tier 4 candidate I believe and making the 3601 a heavy would be key, but doing all of this would require rebalancing the entire German tree from tier 4 to tier 7

emmie357 #16 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:20

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Pz IV should be compared to M4 and T-34.

I think it holds up pretty well in that regard...

awookie #17 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:21

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View PostMaxMike, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:17, said:

Huh? Pay attention gold rounds for credits. There are plenty of people using gold on the PzIV currently.

Read this.

If you are not carrying a handful of gold rounds on a PzIV or Sherman quite frankly you need your head examined. If you carry five gold rounds and use them judiciously on tier 5 heavies or even better tier 6 tanks you are pretty much guaranteed 1500-2000 hp in damage and you will not lose money.

And yet the USSR vehicles don't need gold rounds.

What does that tell you?  If the KV-1 can herpaderp all day long, or use the 85mm and reliably fight against its own tier and above, doesn't that seem fishy?

Meanwhile the advice you're giving to Pz4 drivers is to buy gold rounds.

The Pz4 was a great vehicle before the nerf.  The L70 made it perfect for the sniping role, but now the M4 seems better suited to that (especially with better depression and elevation).

Edited by awookie, Nov 06 2012 - 19:24.


Legiondude #18 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:26

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View Postawookie, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:21, said:

The Pz4 was a great vehicle before the nerf.  The L70 made it perfect for the sniping role, but now the M4 seems better suited to that (especially with better depression and elevation).
With .43 accuracy?

Spoiler                     

Now with that stat out of the way, yes at a distance the M4 will pen easier than the Panzer IV will, however the Panzer IV has better soft stats IMO. Which is why I run my Pz4 75mm L/48 more than I run my M4 76mm M1A1

Edited by Legiondude, Nov 06 2012 - 19:28.


ComradeHX #19 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:32

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PzIV is derp; derp HE cannot pen any spot on KV-1 effectively.

PzIV loses in a straight up 1v1 due to simple fact that it is a lightly armoured medium tank.








...So what does it have to do with whether one or other is better?  Nothing.  KV-1 still cannot see anything and PzIV still owns lighter vehicles more effectively than KV-1(since it can actually hide and move around).


Back before PzIV changes; it was quite OP because it could easily pick off KV-1 from 400m away due to pen, accuracy, camouflage(with camo net), and view range(with binos).

PzIV was one of last slightly OP German vehicles; others are not where near OP.  WG had to nerf it for unjust reasons...but PzIV is not that s**tty, it still looks better than a Sherman and I would take PzIV over Sherman any day.

Edited by ComradeHX, Nov 06 2012 - 19:35.


awookie #20 Posted Nov 06 2012 - 19:35

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View PostLegiondude, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:26, said:

With .43 accuracy?

Spoiler                     


Protip

learn2play

I've hit targets at 300m reliably using a derp, and some further shots sometimes.  Luck?  Partly.  Get 100% crew, aim, and buy vents.
.39 vs .43.

http://www.thehiredg...012/10/omg.jpeg

.4 accuracy, but MORE penetration and gun depression?  And it shoots slightly faster and does slightly more dmg?  Definetly not fitted as a sniper.

And lets do the gold rounds thing too.

Pz4 L48 gets 158 mm pen with gold.
M4 Sherman gets 177mm of pen with gold, but it costs 2 gold more.

View PostDogsoldier6, on Nov 06 2012 - 19:15, said:

Seriously? Comparing a Heavy to a Medium?
Why no German Heavy tanks in the low tiers?
Um the Germans didn't build or design any out side the silly GrosseTracktor, which was a pre-war POS. If WG introduced it I can already hear the German-Phobias screaming it was a POS, afterall the Germans never built anything that was a POS right?
The Gun Nerf and Russian Bias
This one drives me nuts, it really does. First off it is an adjustment for the new MM of +/-2. Second my SU-85 lost its 107mm, my T-34-85 lost its 100mm, and my T-43 lost its 100mm. I didn't hear anyone screaming about it, nobody. Not even me.
Better MM placement.
You have got to be kidding me. Can you even read the MM chart WG released? Did you even glance at it. Oh yea I forgot it is that secret Russian Bias nerf.
:Smile_sceptic:

I guess you forgot about the period of time which was sometime after the KV nerf, but before the normalized MM.  That period of hell where T6 tanks went into T9 battles?

Edited by awookie, Nov 06 2012 - 19:41.





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