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Why does germany not have a tier V heavy?


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Haides #21 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:25

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 09 2012 - 14:10, said:

The tiger would not even need to be "nerfed" to fit tier V. It's got adequate speed, armor, and armament (Minus the long 88). And the 88mm l/56 is 'almost' overpowered at tier V, being made acceptable by being similar to russian 85mm guns at tier V. So what you're losing a gun that makes the tiger capable of fighting at tier VII? It's now a tier V with a tier VI gun :D.

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The 3001P is just a better general "Fit" for tier V, where Tier IV guns HAVE to stand a chance. And the compact, thick armored 3601 is just too much for the average tier IV. You can penetrate the 3001P with the 2pdr, you cant penetrate the 3601 with it :3
So the Tiger which has the same frontal and better side armor would make a better tier 5 than the VK3601, which has less side and overall armor with the same gun and similar speed capabilities?

lostwingman #22 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:29

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View PostHaides, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:25, said:


So the Tiger which has the same frontal and better side armor would make a better tier 5 than the VK3601, which has less side and overall armor with the same gun and similar speed capabilities?
Stop right there logical scum! We don't take too kindly to rational thought and game balance round these parts! If we want to put the Panzer 4 at tier 2 and the King Tiger at tier 6 then BY GOD IM HIMMEL WE WILL!

Legiondude #23 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:33

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From a tech standpoint, I don't think the 88 L/56 would work entirely, because if it's top gun at tier 5, that means intermediate at tier 6, so what do we upgrade the remaining tier 6 Vks with?

Tishler #24 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:41

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Like previously said, VK6501(h) or maybe that durchbruchwagen thing, though the Durchbruchwagen has less armor. I've read an uncited and uncredible German site that said it was planned to mount a 105 howitzer, so there's as much evidence for it to mount that instead of the L24 as for the T28 prototype and the E-100 variants to exist. Probably all premiums, or a dead end sidegrade from the Panzer IV.

Maybe a tier 4 Neubaufahrzeug? All I really want is a German premium heavy with a loader and gunner that doesn't cost $50.

Edited by Tishler, Nov 10 2012 - 20:41.


Lert #25 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:43

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View PostLegiondude, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:33, said:

From a tech standpoint, I don't think the 88 L/56 would work entirely, because if it's top gun at tier 5, that means intermediate at tier 6, so what do we upgrade the remaining tier 6 Vks with?
No need to upgrade the gun at all. If you look at tanks like T29 / T32, they make do with the same gun. T32 is a far better platform for it, with more hitpoints, better effective armor and higher ROF, making it a far stronger tank.

A tier 5 VK with bad soft stats and a slower firing 88 L/56 would fit, and a tier 6 VK with better soft stats and more ROF would also work.

Slakrrrrrr #26 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 20:54

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As people have said already, it would probably be the VK6501H, for these reasons:

- 80mm Frontal Armor (100mm Turret Armor)
- 75mm L/24 Historic Gun (7.5cm L/70 or 8.8cm L/56 Top Gun?)
- Low HP/Tonne

http://www.panzersch...ge/05vk6501.jpg

It would definitely be a predecessor the the VK3601H once they convert it into a heavy tank, and of course they could also add the following tanks:

Oberschlesien (Tier 2)
Durchbruchwagen I   or   Grosstraktor (Tier 3)
Durchbruchwagen II   or   NbFz (Tier 4)

Edited by Slakrrrrrr, Nov 10 2012 - 20:58.


Legiondude #27 Posted Nov 10 2012 - 21:33

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View PostLert, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:43, said:

No need to upgrade the gun at all. If you look at tanks like T29 / T32, they make do with the same gun. T32 is a far better platform for it, with more hitpoints, better effective armor and higher ROF, making it a far stronger tank.

A tier 5 VK with bad soft stats and a slower firing 88 L/56 would fit, and a tier 6 VK with better soft stats and more ROF would also work.
Still, that would require making the tier 6 VKs that aren't heavies to lose their 88mm. Not sure how well the zealous side of the German community would take that

Oh, then the Tier 7 big cat grinds would be even steeper if you didn't get the 3601 first

Edited by Legiondude, Nov 10 2012 - 21:35.


Billymays #28 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 02:22

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View PostHaides, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:25, said:

So the Tiger which has the same frontal and better side armor would make a better tier 5 than the VK3601, which has less side and overall armor with the same gun and similar speed capabilities?

Tiger I is bigger, and has a generally more vulnerable turret (Vertical sides versus slight angle, HUGE difference). And the side armor is about the same. But most importantly, it's SLOWER! By a good margin too. Also there's next to no spaced armor on it, and the internal layout is quite logical, versus the 3601 which has an engine-protecting bustle rack on both sides of the rear hull, and a big ol exhaust that tends to block shots.

View PostLegiondude, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:33, said:

From a tech standpoint, I don't think the 88 L/56 would work entirely, because if it's top gun at tier 5, that means intermediate at tier 6, so what do we upgrade the remaining tier 6 Vks with?
It's no different than the M1A1, being a tier VI gun on a tier V set of tanks :L. Or better yet the 85mm on the KV.

View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Nov 10 2012 - 20:54, said:

As people have said already, it would probably be the VK6501H, for these reasons:

- 80mm Frontal Armor (100mm Turret Armor)
- 75mm L/24 Historic Gun (7.5cm L/70 or 8.8cm L/56 Top Gun?)
- Low HP/Tonne

http://www.panzersch...ge/05vk6501.jpg

It would definitely be a predecessor the the VK3601H once they convert it into a heavy tank, and of course they could also add the following tanks:

Oberschlesien (Tier 2)
Durchbruchwagen I   or   Grosstraktor (Tier 3)
Durchbruchwagen II   or   NbFz (Tier 4)

The problem with that is that it was never designed to have a larger turret ring, meaning that putting an 88 on it is like putting an 88 on a panzer IV. It just wont work (It'll rip the turret from it's ring). And even bringing the L/70 back to tier V ON A HEAVY is questionable since it's got greater accuracy than the M1A1, whilst having similar power and rate of fire. And being on a heavy will only give it an even greater fire rate. I believe this would cause issues, since the devs have already nerfed the M1A1 to oblivion. They'll want to buff it, and then all hell will break lose with the nerf bat elsewhere.

We have to think of something that wont "Outclass" the T1, or out armor the KV or churchill, or out gun the BDR with it's 90. And this threatens to do all 3. Otherwise you're just going to be left with a cup of lukewarm tier V german heavy with a 105 derp as it's top gun :L

If germany gets the grosswagen tree, it'll be the only tree with a Tier II, III, and IV heavy. Save for france which kind of does.
And considering that ALL german heavies prior to the tiger were planned to be armed with no more than derp guns, you're looking at alot of 5cm handouts. -_-

Part of suggesting the 3001P is that it's already fit for the role, questionably out of place at tier VI, already has the background requirement of being a form of heavy, has the desirable gun suite (L/48, L/70, L/56), mobility and power (Minus it's top engine), armor scheme, size, weight, And most importantly it already exists ingame!

That was the other part of suggesting the 3001P, it'd be the quickest thing for them to 'soft nerf' and place at tier V. Especially since germany has been without a tier V heavy since the very beginning, and one could consider giving them one "Urgent".

Edited by Billymays, Nov 11 2012 - 02:24.


Haides #29 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 02:35

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 11 2012 - 02:22, said:

Tiger I is bigger, and has a generally more vulnerable turret (Vertical sides versus slight angle, HUGE difference). And the side armor is about the same. But most importantly, it's SLOWER! By a good margin too. Also there's next to no spaced armor on it, and the internal layout is quite logical, versus the 3601 which has an engine-protecting bustle rack on both sides of the rear hull, and a big ol exhaust that tends to block shots.
The angle which is pretty similar to the taper the Tiger's side does towards the front of the turret? Plus if even a heavy is being shot in his turret side, he's typically doing it wrong anyway (and getting penned anyway) and the better side and rear armor on the Tiger allows it to angle even MORE and be harder to flank appropriately as you can angle your rear and side armor and bounce tier 5s with impunity.

Seriously, any way you look at it, the Tiger at tier 5 with the 88 L/56 would just stupidly outgun and outarmor any other tier 5 heavy in every way while being fairly mobile as well, unless you nerf the mobility to so far that everyone in this subforum cries apologist tears.

Tishler #30 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 03:58

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 11 2012 - 02:22, said:

Tiger I is bigger, and has a generally more vulnerable turret (Vertical sides versus slight angle, HUGE difference). And the side armor is about the same. But most importantly, it's SLOWER! By a good margin too. Also there's next to no spaced armor on it, and the internal layout is quite logical, versus the 3601 which has an engine-protecting bustle rack on both sides of the rear hull, and a big ol exhaust that tends to block shots.
There's no way you can get the Tiger I to fit in tier 5. It would work great as tier 6 with the short 88 (and by this I mean literally just swapping the VK3601's model for the Tiger I's after you give it proper side armor), but there's no way to have it at tier 5. It would have better armor than a KV-1, be more mobile than the T1HT and have a better gun than the BDR.

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The problem with that is that it was never designed to have a larger turret ring, meaning that putting an 88 on it is like putting an 88 on a panzer IV. It just wont work (It'll rip the turret from it's ring). And even bringing the L/70 back to tier V ON A HEAVY is questionable since it's got greater accuracy than the M1A1, whilst having similar power and rate of fire. And being on a heavy will only give it an even greater fire rate. I believe this would cause issues, since the devs have already nerfed the M1A1 to oblivion. They'll want to buff it, and then all hell will break lose with the nerf bat elsewhere.

We have to think of something that wont "Outclass" the T1, or out armor the KV or churchill, or out gun the BDR with it's 90. And this threatens to do all 3. Otherwise you're just going to be left with a cup of lukewarm tier V german heavy with a 105 derp as it's top gun :L
Actually I'd be ok with a 105 derp on a tier 5 German heavy. Heck, I'd be ok with the L/48 on it, as long as the chassis is good. Give the VK6501(H) good armor and decent mobility and it'll be fine with an average-but-ok gun. Think of it like the Panzer III: a great chassis with only ok guns. These tanks don't need the short 88 or L/70.

Edited by Tishler, Nov 11 2012 - 03:58.


Mow_Mow #31 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 04:53

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I could see a 7.5cm L70 at tier 5 again if it had bad soft stats and a relatively low RoF. Or if the platform (the tank its mounted on) sucks. That means it'd have to be worse than the T1 Heavy.

Billymays #32 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 06:37

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View PostHaides, on Nov 11 2012 - 02:35, said:

The angle which is pretty similar to the taper the Tiger's side does towards the front of the turret? Plus if even a heavy is being shot in his turret side, he's typically doing it wrong anyway (and getting penned anyway) and the better side and rear armor on the Tiger allows it to angle even MORE and be harder to flank appropriately as you can angle your rear and side armor and bounce tier 5s with impunity.

Seriously, any way you look at it, the Tiger at tier 5 with the 88 L/56 would just stupidly outgun and outarmor any other tier 5 heavy in every way while being fairly mobile as well, unless you nerf the mobility to so far that everyone in this subforum cries apologist tears.

I have no idea what you're talking about on the front of the turret. Speak bettar english pls c:
There is no "Doing it wrong" about it. Thin turret sides means flanking is desirable against heavies. It's not about "Doin it right", is about the tiger being vulnerable to teir V tanks. Which it plenty is.

Tiger's side and rear armor can be penetrated by the stock gun on the M4 (consequentially the top gun on the lee), even at a slight angle. I would know, i ran my M4 with it for at least 90% of the matches (M1A1 never worked for me, 105 is just lol). So if i can kill a tiger, or at least horribly wound it, with a stock gunned teir V, your qualms about it being over-armored for tier V are unfounded.

Stupidly outgun and outarmor every other tier V heavy while being fairly mobile? So you're whining that it's a KV? c:

View PostTishler, on Nov 11 2012 - 03:58, said:

There's no way you can get the Tiger I to fit in tier 5. It would work great as tier 6 with the short 88 (and by this I mean literally just swapping the VK3601's model for the Tiger I's after you give it proper side armor), but there's no way to have it at tier 5. It would have better armor than a KV-1, be more mobile than the T1HT and have a better gun than the BDR.


Actually I'd be ok with a 105 derp on a tier 5 German heavy. Heck, I'd be ok with the L/48 on it, as long as the chassis is good. Give the VK6501(H) good armor and decent mobility and it'll be fine with an average-but-ok gun. Think of it like the Panzer III: a great chassis with only ok guns. These tanks don't need the short 88 or L/70.

The tiger already fits in tier V so long as the long 88 is taken away, and the 'non tiger" top engine as well. It is better fit for tier VI, but that's not the point of this topic :P.
The T1 will out accelerate the Tiger with each having the top engine anyway, so your point is moot. Nevermind how the tiger has a top speed equal to that of the BDRs.

"Better" armor is somewhat of a lie, since it's mostly vertical armor, 100mm thick at the thickest (No, gun mantle on the turret does not count).
KV has a frontal effective armor of about 95mm, so it's the same (As does the T1 in places, which frustrates me to no end lol) and the KV is only behind on side armor by a whopping SEVEN MILLIMETERS  :Smile_ohmy: . Even on the backside it's only off by 12mm :L. And when you factor in angling your hull, the reclined KV1 frontal armor is MUCH more bouncy than the tiger's frontal armor (Nevermind that the tiger has easier to hit/penetrate frontal weakspots).

Even it's L/56 is fit for tier V, as much as the other heavies guns.
It has a tad less penetration than the BDR's 90mm, while dealing slightly less damage as well. And it's entirely slower than the M1A1 on the T1 and the 85mm on the KV1, so it balances it's self out.

So regardless of what you people want to whine and moan about, the Tiger makes for a pretty good tier V heavy.
It's slow as a BDR, it's short 88 is less powerful and not much faster loading than the BDR's 90mm, it has similar armor to the KV1, and it even balances it's self out.

If you're worried about it's health, of course it'll be adjusted for tier. But it's only fair that it gets the most health of the tier V heavies since it's reputation demands it  :Smile_blinky:

Tishler #33 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 07:00

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 11 2012 - 06:37, said:

So regardless of what you people want to whine and moan about, the Tiger makes for a pretty good tier V heavy.
It's slow as a BDR, it's short 88 is less powerful and not much faster loading than the BDR's 90mm, it has similar armor to the KV1, and it even balances it's self out.

If you're worried about it's health, of course it'll be adjusted for tier. But it's only fair that it gets the most health of the tier V heavies since it's reputation demands it  :Smile_blinky:
That doesn't balance it out at all. It'll be WORLDS better than the BDR. Remember, that tank is a complete turd besides the gun. The Tiger will be a better tank in every way except 20 alpha and three pen. It will have better armor, better speed, better gun depression better soft stats, better RoF, better accuracy, better aim time, frankly it'll be better in almost every single way and 20 damage won't make a difference.

The VK6501(h) is a much better option.

Edited by Tishler, Nov 11 2012 - 07:04.


Billymays #34 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 07:16

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View PostTishler, on Nov 11 2012 - 07:00, said:

That doesn't balance it out at all. It'll be WORLDS better than the BDR. Remember, that tank is a complete turd besides the gun. The Tiger will be a better tank in every way except 20 alpha and three pen. It will have better armor, better speed, better gun depression better soft stats, better RoF, better accuracy, better aim time, frankly it'll be better in almost every single way and 20 damage won't make a difference.

The VK6501(h) is a much better option.

"Better" is a matter of opinion. STATISTICALLY, with some minor modifications, it makes for a good tier V. Of course, everything is better than a BDR lol.
And i like the BDR's mobility honestly, its one of the few tanks that actually drive smoothly c:

It has similar armor to the KV1, THE EXACT SAME TOP SPEED as the BDR, and a gun that fits between the russian 85mm and the BDR's 90mm.

And 20 damage DOES make a difference, since penetration largely influences damage dealt. A gun with higher penetration will do "Fuller" damage than a gun with lower penetration. A good example is the 75mm Mk1 and the vickers HV. Both have the same average damage, but the vickers  HV achieves it more constantly and reliably than the faster firing, lower penetrating 75mm Mk1.

So having slightly lower penetration and damage than the BDR is actually a pretty palatable thing. 20 less damage, times how ever much less the shell penetrates (Which can be anywhere from not affected at all, staying 20 less, to being MAJORLY effected like doing 70 less).

And given the general low rate of fire for the 88mm L/56, a A tiger can still be outgunned by any of the tier V heavies in rate of fire alone.

Tishler #35 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 07:40

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 11 2012 - 07:16, said:

"Better" is a matter of opinion. STATISTICALLY, with some minor modifications, it makes for a good tier V. Of course, everything is better than a BDR lol.
And i like the BDR's mobility honestly, its one of the few tanks that actually drive smoothly c:

It has similar armor to the KV1, THE EXACT SAME TOP SPEED as the BDR, and a gun that fits between the russian 85mm and the BDR's 90mm.

And 20 damage DOES make a difference, since penetration largely influences damage dealt. A gun with higher penetration will do "Fuller" damage than a gun with lower penetration. A good example is the 75mm Mk1 and the vickers HV. Both have the same average damage, but the vickers  HV achieves it more constantly and reliably than the faster firing, lower penetrating 75mm Mk1.

So having slightly lower penetration and damage than the BDR is actually a pretty palatable thing. 20 less damage, times how ever much less the shell penetrates (Which can be anywhere from not affected at all, staying 20 less, to being MAJORLY effected like doing 70 less).

And given the general low rate of fire for the 88mm L/56, a A tiger can still be outgunned by any of the tier V heavies in rate of fire alone.
Nonesense. The gun does not 'fit right in between' the Russian 85mm and the BDR. It's the complete equal or better of the BDR's 90mm.
http://wiki.worldoft...amage_Mechanics

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AP, APCR and HEAT shells cause damage only if they manage to penetrate the target's hull armour. Once the hull armour is penetrated the target will take the full listed damage, +/- 25%. Other factors play no role to the damage calculation. For example, it makes no difference whether you barely penetrated or easily penetrated the target.

The L/56 does only 20 less damage and has only three less pen in exchange for a higher RoF and better accuracy. If the tank has the same speed as the BDR, the armor of a KV-1 and a gun that's just as good as the BDR's... What does that leave the BDR with?

Arrowfoot #36 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 07:49

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Wow grats man, I bring up the fact that the germans are the only ones with out a tier 5 or 6 heavy and my tread gets locked and I get insulted. but you have a newer one and people seem to agree. You must be a better talked then me, just look out you may get locked next as they dont like us pionting out the way the germans get shafted!

Tishler #37 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 07:56

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View PostArrowfoot, on Nov 11 2012 - 07:49, said:

Wow grats man, I bring up the fact that the germans are the only ones with out a tier 5 or 6 heavy and my tread gets locked and I get insulted. but you have a newer one and people seem to agree. You must be a better talked then me, just look out you may get locked next as they dont like us pionting out the way the germans get shafted!
It's all how you present it.

"This is unfair, why do the Russians get the KV-1 when the Germans don't have a tier 5 heavy?" sounds like whining while "How about a tier 5 heavy premium for the Germans" or "Why not a tier 2-5 heavy line for the Germans?" sounds like a discussion.

Billymays #38 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 08:01

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View PostTishler, on Nov 11 2012 - 07:40, said:

Nonesense. The gun does not 'fit right in between' the Russian 85mm and the BDR. It's the complete equal or better of the BDR's 90mm.
http://wiki.worldoft...amage_Mechanics


The L/56 does only 20 less damage and has only three less pen in exchange for a higher RoF and better accuracy. If the tank has the same speed as the BDR, the armor of a KV-1 and a gun that's just as good as the BDR's... What does that leave the BDR with?

It's roughly equal, but still statistically inferior in penetration and damage, meaning STATISTICALLY it goes between the 85mm and the 90mm. Especially when you take into account of the rates of fire, where it's marginally superior to the BDR, but massively inferior to the KV1.

And if you're looking to complain about the BDR, do it elsewhere. It's already the weakest of the tier V heavies, so adding another strong one doesn't really affect it.

Arrowfoot #39 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 08:03

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View PostTishler, on Nov 11 2012 - 07:56, said:

It's all how you present it.

"This is unfair, why do the Russians get the KV-1 when the Germans don't have a tier 5 heavy?" sounds like whining while "How about a tier 5 heavy premium for the Germans" or "Why not a tier 2-5 heavy line for the Germans?" sounds like a discussion.

But it is true they are the only ones without a tier 5 or 6 heavy and i get asked if i have taken my med, get called names and then my thread gets lucked do to insults,they insult me i get locked? not only is the lack of tier 5 and 6 heavies not fair for the Germans but hte responce to me was unfair as well. Good luck with your thread. I offered up a proto type pz-4 heavy fire support as a tier 5 heavy. It was a modified pz-4g/h with the 105 how. in it. the turret could only go 140%, and it was the only time the Germans tried to mount the 105 on the PZ-4.

Tishler #40 Posted Nov 11 2012 - 08:10

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View PostBillymays, on Nov 11 2012 - 08:01, said:

It's roughly equal, but still statistically inferior in penetration and damage, meaning STATISTICALLY it goes between the 85mm and the 90mm. Especially when you take into account of the rates of fire, where it's marginally superior to the BDR, but massively inferior to the KV1.

And if you're looking to complain about the BDR, do it elsewhere. It's already the weakest of the tier V heavies, so adding another strong one doesn't really affect it.
You're nuts if you think 20 damage and three penetration mean ANYTHING when the Tiger would have MASSIVE advantages over its peers. Statistically that's an 8% disadvantage in damage and a 3% disadvantage in pen, along with an accuracy, RoF advantage for the gun and literally every part of the tank being better in every single way.

It has the gun of the BDR and the armor of the KV-1. The BDR is sitting at a 48.83% win rate. The T1HT is at 48.71% and the KV-1 at 49.63%. With a gun as good as the BDR's and armor like the KV's... Do you honestly think it won't be horribly broken?

Just go with the VK6501(h). It fits without being broken.

Edited by Tishler, Nov 11 2012 - 08:17.





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