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Artillery T8 comparison, spoiler-batchat is on top-


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MinorityShack #1 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:06

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So I don't mean to get on everyone's nerves again about how Arty is op, or how I'm complaining about arty again. I thought it would be interesting for you guys to see this website though and just see how much the batchat does over perform the other t8 artillery.

http://www.vbaddict....ion=0&premium=0

on this website you can see comparability how much more efficient the batchatt arty is, how much more damage it does on average and how much more xp it earns.

Spoiler                     

As you can see the batchat out performs all the other artillery in all the relevant fields used to judge arty. Now please don't be confused with me solely trying to complain here. I also would like to suggest we adjust the batchat according to these stats as well. If we have an artillery piece that is performing this well and overshadowing others, why don't we tweak the batchat to where it takes longer in between each shots, or make it as accurate as a t92?

there are many suggestions out there on these forums as well. Most suggestions are terrible and out right trolling. I'm not going to search for them as the way these forums are set up it's not really friendly to this user. What do you guys think, oh and "remove arty from the game" isn't happening. You might as well go to the succeed from the U.S. website and sign that petition.

Pershing75mm113 #2 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:13

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Gotta love that painful drumming of a Chat 155 on your tier tens

Rick_500 #3 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:13

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View PostMinorityShack, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:06, said:

So I don't mean to get on everyone's nerves again about how Arty is op, or how I'm complaining about arty again. I thought it would be interesting for you guys to see this website though and just see how much the batchat does over perform the other t8 artillery.

http://www.vbaddict....ion=0&premium=0

on this website you can see comparability how much more efficient the batchatt arty is, how much more damage it does on average and how much more xp it earns.

Spoiler                     

As you can see the batchat out performs all the other artillery in all the relevant fields used to judge arty. Now please don't be confused with me solely trying to complain here. I also would like to suggest we adjust the batchat according to these stats as well. If we have an artillery piece that is performing this well and overshadowing others, why don't we tweak the batchat to where it takes longer in between each shots, or make it as accurate as a t92?

there are many suggestions out there on these forums as well. Most suggestions are terrible and out right trolling. I'm not going to search for them as the way these forums are set up it's not really friendly to this user. What do you guys think, oh and "remove arty from the game" isn't happening. You might as well go to the succeed from the U.S. website and sign that petition.
Leave the chat 155 alone! i love its accuracy. Its low damage per shot means it needs the accuracy and clip to make it a good arty.

Pershing75mm113 #4 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:20

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View PostRick_500, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:13, said:

Leave the chat 155 alone! i love its accuracy. Its low damage per shot means it needs the accuracy and clip to make it a good arty.

I love Batchats as long as they aint shooting at me

Poultryphile #5 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:21

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Maybe the other arty needs a buff to bring it in line with the bat chat?

Allurai #6 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:29

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vbaddict is a opt-in service, where you have to run an application on the side for best results - this turns off most players from using it. Only the dedicated people very interested in their stats use the service - of that population, the majority share of the users come from players already above average. This means that the averages on that site are grossly inflated above what the actual averages would be if the whole population was considered and measured.

The BatChat155 is still relatively new and the bulk of the population playing them had other tier 8 first, meaning the initial arty learning curve had been travelled by the players then moving to BatChat arty. The Typ E, T92 and Obj261 are burdened by people learning to play tier 8 arty in them, and that since they have been out so long, all the 'baddies' have lost their way up to using them.

Look at the average efficiency across the board at vbaddict, I say efficiency because how badly these statistics are skewed will be pretty obvious. After looking at several tiers and all classes from those statistics you would assume the average player efficiency is about 1500, it simply isn't even close to that. The 'baddies', while the largest majority of players on the server, make of the smallest minority of users on that site. Not to mention that in a completely opposite nature, that 1% sliver of unicum players probably has a participation rate of 50%.

MinorityShack #7 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:40

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View PostAllurai, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:29, said:

vbaddict is a opt-in service, where you have to run an application on the side for best results - this turns off most players from using it. Only the dedicated people very interested in their stats use the service - of that population, the majority share of the users come from players already above average. This means that the averages on that site are grossly inflated above what the actual averages would be if the whole population was considered and measured.

The BatChat155 is still relatively new and the bulk of the population playing them had other tier 8 first, meaning the initial arty learning curve had been travelled by the players then moving to BatChat arty. The Typ E, T92 and Obj261 are burdened by people learning to play tier 8 arty in them, and that since they have been out so long, all the 'baddies' have lost their way up to using them.

Look at the average efficiency across the board at vbaddict, I say efficiency because how badly these statistics are skewed will be pretty obvious. After looking at several tiers and all classes from those statistics you would assume the average player efficiency is about 1500, it simply isn't even close to that. The 'baddies', while the largest majority of players on the server, make of the smallest minority of users on that site. Not to mention that in a completely opposite nature, that 1% sliver of unicum players probably has a participation rate of 50%.


well if you have a better stat tracking suggestion i'm all ears. and it's not relatively new anymore. Batchat players are out there with 1000 plus games. there's a large enough population running it to give a good and accurate statistic pool. And of course you love your arty rick, that's because of it's stats I just posted lol.

KGBElite #8 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:50

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The batchat has a reload time of over a minute (72 seconds?) That pretty much balances it out.

ElPuffMo #9 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:55

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I'm not sure you're necessarily comparing apples to apples here.  The Bat155 has only been around a few months. When it first came out, only more experienced players had one, since we used free or earned/converted XP to buy it without grinding through all the French arty.  Since the statistics are based upon these games played by more experienced players, could it be that the Bat155 only looks OP without deeper analysis, as a greater percentage of Bat155 players have already learned the T8 arty ropes through the other lines?  Is there any data available about the efficiency & performance of Bat155 players based upon only the other tanks they play?   I know that I'm a lot better at an Object 261 now than I was at first, but my average 261 data looks low since I had a big learning curve & sucked at the start. I didn't need much of a learning curve with my Bat arty about positioning, prioritization, angles, etc., since I learned most of that with the 261, so I was immediately equal to my 261 work.  Honestly, my Bat155 feels weak & too nerfed compared to the other T7 & T8 arty since the latest updates. How many Bat155 players had at least one other T8 arty before they got their Bat?

3BAC #10 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 22:57

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View PostMinorityShack, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:06, said:

As you can see the batchat out performs all the other artillery in all the relevant fields used to judge arty.
Yet, oddly enough, it fails at the most important statistic of all.
Average Kills per Battle
1.  GW Typ E  0.9
2.  Object 261  0.7
3.  T92  0.7
4.  Bat Chatillon 155  0.6

So, do you want an arty that is more efficient at dealing damage, or actually kills more of the enemy per battle?  When your team is losing, and you look up to see your arty with little or no kills, what are you thinking about your arty?

View PostAllurai, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:29, said:

The BatChat155 is still relatively new and the bulk of the population playing them had other tier 8 first, meaning the initial arty learning curve had been travelled by the players then moving to BatChat arty.
Given that the players in that database are experienced arty players, what does that kill/battle ratio really tell you about the Batchat's "efficiency"?

View PostMinorityShack, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:40, said:

well if you have a better stat tracking suggestion i'm all ears. and it's not relatively new anymore. Batchat players are out there with 1000 plus games. there's a large enough population running it to give a good and accurate statistic pool. And of course you love your arty rick, that's because of it's stats I just posted lol.
Other than the WoT-news site, which doesn't break it down by efficiency, not sure if there is any other source.  Probably for your point though, experienced players who care about their stats are probably the best indicator of whether a particular tank out performs another.  I still agree with Allurai about the learning curve though.  Is there any way to show the average stats for the most recent experience in those same arty?

AdeptusArkainis #11 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 23:02

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Most of the Bat Chat kills are other arty and TDs. The Chat arty cleans house when enemy arty is spotted.

Allurai #12 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 23:03

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View Post3BAC, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:57, said:

Yet, oddly enough, it fails at the most important statistic of all.
Average Kills per Battle
1.  GW Typ E  0.9
2.  Object 261  0.7
3.  T92  0.7
4.  Bat Chatillon 155  0.6
Indeedy, here is actually where you're seeing the point I'm making.

The Batchat doing more damage and getting less kills per battle is not indicative of the nature of the beast. Prioritizing damage over kills is the nature of the beasts playing them (a significantly larger portion of experienced tankers arty players compared to the other tier 8 arties).

ElPuffMo #13 Posted Nov 14 2012 - 23:03

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LOL  I posted my reply while distracted & didn't notice that Allurai basically already said the same thing I meant to communicate. :-)

MagicSquid #14 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 01:57

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View PostAllurai, on Nov 14 2012 - 23:03, said:

Indeedy, here is actually where you're seeing the point I'm making.

The Batchat doing more damage and getting less kills per battle is not indicative of the nature of the beast. Prioritizing damage over kills is the nature of the beasts playing them (a significantly larger portion of experienced tankers arty players compared to the other tier 8 arties).

Allurai's correct here.

Scrub arty players will often times prioritize hitting low HP targets of low importance (tier 8s with low HP in in tier 10 battles, when the tier 10s are parked right next to the low HP tier 8). This sort of mentality sort of artificially inflates their own k/d ratio and kills per battle ratio, while simultaneously sabotaging their own team because their team ends up having to deal with a full HP tier 10 coming at them.

I say "sort of" inflates their stats because their damage stats and win rate stats end up suffering because of it, while it inflates a less important stat - # kills per game.

Damage output is what's important per game in an SPG. That's indicative of how crippling your vehicle is versus the enemy team. Crushing a tier 10 on the enemy team will more likely yield a win than jacking that 1% health tier 8 from the E-75 that's just worked him down from full HP.

Edit -- Target prioritization is an important skill that many, many pubbie arty players fail miserably at. Better SPG players are going to do that better.

Edited by MagicSquid, Nov 16 2012 - 02:00.


MagicSquid #15 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 01:58

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Oopsie!

Edited by MagicSquid, Nov 16 2012 - 01:59.


Shinma_ #16 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 08:58

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View PostMagicSquid, on Nov 16 2012 - 01:57, said:

Allurai's correct here.

Scrub arty players will often times prioritize hitting low HP targets of low importance (tier 8s with low HP in in tier 10 battles, when the tier 10s are parked right next to the low HP tier 8). This sort of mentality sort of artificially inflates their own k/d ratio and kills per battle ratio, while simultaneously sabotaging their own team because their team ends up having to deal with a full HP tier 10 coming at them.

I say "sort of" inflates their stats because their damage stats and win rate stats end up suffering because of it, while it inflates a less important stat - # kills per game.

Damage output is what's important per game in an SPG. That's indicative of how crippling your vehicle is versus the enemy team. Crushing a tier 10 on the enemy team will more likely yield a win than jacking that 1% health tier 8 from the E-75 that's just worked him down from full HP.

Edit -- Target prioritization is an important skill that many, many pubbie arty players fail miserably at. Better SPG players are going to do that better.

fully disagree with you here: If the 8% tier 8 isn't hittable by your tanks, take out the t8 and you cut the enemy dps and damage potential. If the tier 8 is easily cleaned by your team, then you switch to the higher tier, or other threats to your team that you might neutralize

The bat's 'drawback' is that you can't knock someone out quickly, but you he fantastc defense, repositioning for shooting around blacked areas, and as a bipoduct of low splah, assisting in a duel with a fair lack of risk to splashing a team mate.

MagicSquid #17 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 12:22

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View PostEVE_Shinma, on Nov 16 2012 - 08:58, said:

fully disagree with you here: If the 8% tier 8 isn't hittable by your tanks, take out the t8 and you cut the enemy dps and damage potential. If the tier 8 is easily cleaned by your team, then you switch to the higher tier, or other threats to your team that you might neutralize

The bat's 'drawback' is that you can't knock someone out quickly, but you he fantastc defense, repositioning for shooting around blacked areas, and as a bipoduct of low splah, assisting in a duel with a fair lack of risk to splashing a team mate.


Riiiight...

I said they prioritize hitting low HP (single digit %) targets over others, effectively kill-stealing.

Not because there aren't better targets, but because they're kill-stealing to try to boost their kill count and grief their teammates.

Read + understand, then post, in that order. Not read + understand then troll, or read + troll, or read + post. Gotta have all 3.

Timbo911 #18 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 14:03

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Hey Minority, see Allurai and ElPuffMo's comments.
The data from vbaddict is months is limited and dated (prior to at least one of the two official nerfs).

You are fortunate that your clanmates have been early adopters and have contributed to this new style of dynamic SPG play.

Mouseman #19 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 21:53

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View Post3BAC, on Nov 14 2012 - 22:57, said:

Yet, oddly enough, it fails at the most important statistic of all.
Average Kills per Battle
1.  GW Typ E  0.9
2.  Object 261  0.7
3.  T92  0.7
4.  Bat Chatillon 155  0.6

So, do you want an arty that is more efficient at dealing damage, or actually kills more of the enemy per battle?  When your team is losing, and you look up to see your arty with little or no kills, what are you thinking about your arty?


Contrary to popular belief, the primary purpose of arty isn't to kill the enemy tanks so much as it is to soften them up so that they can be easily killed by allied tanks.    The reason other arty has a higher kill rate is because they do more damage per hit, which means they have a greater chance of actually killing their target rather than simply hurting it.  The Batchat doesn't do as much damage so isn't as likely to kill what it hits with a single shot.  

Are there exceptions to this?  Of course (such as killing an already damaged tier 10 enemy before he can kill a friendly that is also damaged, or is a lower tier that will have trouble penetrating), but the primary purpose of artillery is still to put damage on healthy targets, not to kill those that are already near death.

That being said....from the point of view of someone who actually has all of the tier 8 artillery pieces, I like the batchat because it allows me to choose to follow up a shot that didn't kill something if I need to (like a JpzE100 thats holding a critical choke point), or I can spread my damage around pretty fast if opportunity presents (friendly scout lighting up enemy arty that are too stupid to move).  Other artillery pieces do significantly more damage, have a wider splash, but suffer as far as reload time between shots (although my 65 second reload can be painful when arty is desperately needed and I'm stuck watching my countdown).  The best thing about the batchat is its ability to counterbattery.  It is accurate, has a turret (which prevents me from having retical espansion issues), and can rapidly fire multiple shots if I see terrain destruction indicating enemy movement.   My absolute favorite arty lost its shine (GWE) after the splash skirts were nerfed and stopped preventing splash damage.  

The reasons the batchat is rapidly becoming the arty of choice (in no particular order):
1)  4 round drum
2)  accuracy
3)  speed for repositioning
4)  small size
5)  Turret allows SNAP SHOT skill which speeds up aiming, and prevents reticle expansion from tracks being engaged

Felklaw #20 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 22:53

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You have this totally right.
Arty isn't about ending the round with Top Gun or 12 kills.
Arty is about taking large chunks off the enemy health to allow team mates to kill them off safer.
Arty is about making the enemy too scared to stick their nose out from around the rock, allowing team mates to flank and tear them up.
Arty is about assiting team mates to quickly take down a found enemy by overwhelming them with incoming fire.

I love nothing better than helping the team out and getting a thanks because I helped save a team mate caught in a tough battle with a well placed shot, or managing to stop or route an enemy attemptng to flank team mates. Will I end up with the most kills, pfft Like I care. Will I have a great time playing, hell yeah!

Then again, there are always going to be FPS junkies who's only self worth is based off the almight kill count.