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Visibility and camouflage system, how and why? (Updated: 2011.01.08)


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Cifu #1 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 11:29

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I make two topics related to the camouflage and visibility problems (Ferdinand camo test and Visibilty and Camo test), and try to dig up as many as i can in this matter.

I find some interesting topics there, related in this matter, and find this one (started by Wis) very-very usefull.

Sorrowly, the google translate are far from the perfect solution to break the language barrier (hell, i even learn 4 years russian in basic school, but hardly understand anything, in turn i never take an english lesson...), but i like to contribute what we can learn from that (please note: this all is coming from google translate, and i won't really understand everything surely, so i keep up the possibility of misunderstandings, please consider this while reading):

I greatfully thank JLZ to the help of correcting the translate (and grammatical) errors.  :Smile_honoring:

Visibility System Working Method::

There is visibility observation zone starting from gun mantlet on turret on your tank. From that point there are 3 'rays' directed to every enemy tank. Two beams are aimed at the targets hull and 3rd one to the turret. The enemy tank become visible if no obstacles were found between your and enemy tank. The visibility check is managed 360°, so it doesn't matter which direction you are going or where the turret is facing. (in other words: there is no penalaty if enemy is behind you).

http://b.imagehost.o...6/Unbenannt.jpg


The writings on the picture are saying:
Upper right (дom) = House. ("non-transparent" obstacle)
Lower left (Kyct) = Bush. ("translucent" obstacle)
Lower left writing (зонa...) = Reduced visibility zone
Lower center (red writing, Paдyиc...) = Visibility zone


The system care about the obstacles in two different type.

The first one is a non-transparent, like buildings, rocks, etc. If such obstacles block all beams, the tank is not been seen (if the range is above 50 meters, read below). (if i'm understand correctly, there enough one beam to reach the target, to get seen - Cifu)

The second one is the translucent type, like bushes. If you are less then 15m from the center of the bush it won't be obstacle to you (you can see through it!). The bush size matters, for example if the body is hided, but the turret are visible by the 'turret' ray, the cover is not not working. If you want to check the cover is working for you, turn your camera where your suspected enemys are coming. If your outline is all greyed out, and your tanks if fully hided by the bush, you get covered. Note: the gun barrel are not counted, only the body (and turret) of the tank.

http://b.imagehost.o.../maskirovka.jpg


In the next picture is an another cover set-up. It's show the enemy tanks three visibility check beams, the one is aiming your tanks center is the turret-checking beam. If you wan't to be hide, you have to ensure all bush (green spots) are taller than your tank, from the enemy tanks viewpoint. Note the tank in the front is see your turret (middle beam), and the lower left tank see your tail (lowest beam), the other two tank won't see you.

http://img695.images...18/57450153.jpg


Okay, but what about the trees?

Treetops block above-mentioned 'rays' too. It works in same way as bush.
Fallen tree doesn't block anything.

Shooting (with greater extent) and moving tank (in smaller extent) could unmask your tank for next 5 seconds. Turning the turret have no effect about the cover!

The Camouflage net works whenever you stops. It gains cumulative effect in bushes though so in bushes it gains better results.

Crew's Camouflage skill works always. In movement, in hold, while shooting.
It works by lowering enemy's view range. E.g, if enemy's view range is 400m and your crew have Camouflage skill then enemy's view range will not be 400m but much shorter. This way, it helps to cover you even if you were shooting.

Camo net + Crew's camo skill = 125% bonus

Gun is not counted as the part of the tank. - we are talking about visibility check, of course.

On 50 and less meters, nothing will cover you. Tank gains roentgen ability :)

This image perhaps help to understand the different region of sight ranges, in this example, we have a 400 meter view range tank, with 100% skilled crew:

http://d.imagehost.o...Neue_Bitmap.jpg

Green region: Always seen everyone. 50 meters and below, you always see the enemy below this range, even through walls.
Yellow region: Hided opponents region, 50-200 meters. A Su-14 hided in behind one bush, without camo net or camouflage skill are showed up 200 meters, a mid tier Tand Destroyer (like the Hetzer or Su-85) with camo net and high camouflage skill can only be seen around 50 meters!
Blue region: Open field opponents region, 200-400 meters. A Su-14 in open, without any kind of camo equipment or skill are showed up in 400 meters. A Hetzer with camouflage skilled crew can be seen only from 200 meters.
Red region: Above sight range, 400+ meters. You cannot spot anybody in that region.

How often check the engine about the visibility?

On the far, visibility is checked on 10s. Sometimes even sparsely. - out of visibility zone?
Visibility is checked on close tanks every second. With distance, check interval increases up to 5 seconds. - inside visibility zone
Keep in mind that visibility check is very intensive computational operation and it occupy up to 50% server's CPU time.

How the spotting range calculated exactly?

The spotting distance is calculated from two thing. The first one is your tank sight range, your crew skill (the noted sight range of your tank are only gained with 100% crew) and your equipment (coated optics: +10%, binocular: +25% after become stationary for 5 sec), but never be more than 500m.

On the second thing, ZiggyDeath made his homework, i'm provide this based on his work (big thanks for him!):

Every tank in the game have two value for visibility, one for movement, and one for standing still. Like the Panzer IV. have 0.25 for moving, and 0.3 for still. The math looks this:

View range - (view range * visibility value) = spotting range  

We are sitting a tank with 420 meters of view distance, the Panzer IV. are moving toward us:

420 - (420 * 0.25) = 315 meters


So we spotted the incoming Panzer IV. around 315 meters.

You can find out more about the exact ranges, and more finding in this topic.

What kind of sight range modifiers exits?

Coated optics: +10% sight range
Binocular: +25% sight range, when standing still
Ventilation: +5% crew skill, with 100% crew this means +5% sight range in theory

How the camouflage net and the camouflage skill working then?

We don't know how the camouflage net working exactly, but something like multiplied the standing still value by 1.25.
We don't know how the camouflage skill is working too, at least yet.

So there is no point to get 500+ meters sight range?

The 500 meteres sight range cap means you cannot spot anything beyond that range. But the above mentioned calculating method suggest you can still gain from the over 500 meters sight range. For example:

You have 575 meters of sight range (460m + binocular (x1,25)), and you standing still (to gain the binocular bonus) a Su-14 are always disappear above 500 meters, and 460 meters without the binocular.
But if you have a target who has better visibility value, you experience better spotting range. For the example:

You have a 420 meter view distance, the target is a moving Sherman. You spot him around 357 meters.
You have a 500 meter view distance, the target is a moving Sherman. You spot him around 425 meters.
You have a 550 meter view distance, the target is a moving Sherman. You spot him around 468 meters.

So there is definitely worth to gain sight range above 500 meters!

With very low value (like Su-14, Maus, JagdTiger, etc.) it's won't worth to take the camouflage skill and/or the camouflage net?

No, because the system are multiple the values, with very low value you simply can forgot both the camo skill and the camo net, it's simply won't provide noticeable effect.  

Do the speed of movement affect the visibility of my tank?

No, it's not affected by the movement speed.
In other words: you won't become easier to detect, when you travel faster.  

The turning of the body of the tanks are counted moving? And the turret traverse?

The body turning are counted moving. The turning of the turret are not.

How the shooting penalty is working, and what is affecting that?

When you shooting, the bushes in 15 meter radius are get penalty for the next 3 second, when your visibility checked. Beside this, when you fire, you visibility value are get a penalty. The penalty size are depending from two thing, one is the diameter of the gun, and the existence of the muzzle brake! Cannon with muzzle brake are get more penalty. The exact numbers or formula of the penalty is unknown.  

The so called "firing bushes" problem are mean there is a bush or tree more than 15 meters from the firing tank. Those covers get no penalty when the hiding tank are shooting.

The scouts (like the Luchs, Leopard, A-20, etc.) get some kind of bonuses in visibility?

Yes, the scout tanks are won't get higher visibility penalty when moving, or precisely their movement visibility are the same as the standing still values.


Comments, opinions and counter-opinions are welcomed.

Edited by Eide, Jan 09 2011 - 02:17.
Removed the swing at WN. As long as no EULA sentive info is uncluded you are fine. Thank you.


Deathskyz #2 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 12:33

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Very nice! Any idea on the Russian words on the picture though? And for a Tank Destroyer, does turning to face the enemy say... to the right of him since he can only shoot forward, does it remove the effect of the camouflage?

amade #3 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 13:09

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Nice find. I understand most of it even if the translation isn't perfect.

This part is most interesting:

Quote

The "always spotting" distance is 50m. If you closer an enemy than 50m, he showed up, regardles what kind of obstacles between you (even buildings, tall rocks, etc.).

How often check the engine about the visibility? In close range between two tank, one in each second, as the target get far, less and less, up to 5 seconds. Even with this kind of method, the visibility check eat up about 50% of the server load.

If a target is moving fast enough I suppose it could cover a lot of distance in 5 seconds before it gets spotted. Explains why we sometimes get tanks suddenly appearing out of nowhere with no cover. I do hope they get to optimize the spotting system so detection check is calculated more often while still minimizing server load caused by it.

Cifu #4 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 13:18

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View PostDeathskyz, on Nov 21 2010 - 12:33, said:

Very nice! Any idea on the Russian words on the picture though? And for a Tank Destroyer, does turning to face the enemy say... to the right of him since he can only shoot forward, does it remove the effect of the camouflage?

First picture:
Upper right (дom) = House.
Lowee left (Kyct) = Bush.
Lower left writing (зонa...) = Some kind of visibility zone (degraded visibility zone?)
Lower center (red writing, Paдyиc...) = dunno, it's likely the point where the viewpoint starting (gun mantlet)

Third picture:
Guessing: "Bидиt" likely means 'see you', the 'нo bидиt' means 'not see you'.

amade #5 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 13:37

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This is also an interesting bit taken from the newsletter:

View PostMrVic, on Nov 20 2010 - 20:25, said:

Hot Topic of the Week said:

With the latest patch 0.6.1.5 The improved game engine came online. This improvement once and for all killed the "Warping Issue" Currently the Detection and Hiding system is not performing as intended.  Correcting the issues with the Detection and Spotting system is the biggest issue the Devs are fighting right now.  Testing of some solutions for this problem are in internal testing and hopefully if it goes well we will see them soon!  

Overlord said:

Most of the problems arise from some obvious problems with spotting/detection system, icluding so-called invisible tanks and malfunctioning modules (camo net, optics etc).

With warping having been fixed in 0.6.1.5 once and for all, the detection system as it is now, remains one of the biggest issues.

Increasing the rate of visibility checks, that currently depend on distance between two vehicles, is going to increase server load substantially. Nevertheless, such option is under consideration and we are planning to see how it works at supertest.


Cifu #6 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 14:46

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Thank you for the correction JLZ, i'm updated the opening post regarding about those.  :Smile_honoring:

View PostJLZ, on Nov 21 2010 - 14:31, said:

Quote

The spotting distance is calculated from two thing. The first one is your tank sight range, your crew skill (the noted sight range of your tank are only gained with 100% crew) and your equipment (coated optics: +10%, binocular: +25% after become stationary for 5 sec), but never be more than 500m. The second one is the target determined visibility stat, defined perhaps from the dimensions of the tanks (our test showed it's not likely the height, the Panther and the JagdPanther showed up exactly the same distance, regardles the JagdPanther is unambiguously shorter - Cifu), and the bonus of the cover (bush), equipment (camo net) and skill.

What about volume of vehicle (lenght x width x height)?

Hmm... sounds plausible. But then the Tiger, JagdPanhter, Panther and M6 have around the same volume (my earlier test are get around the same distance for spotting from my Ferdi)?

Cifu #7 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 15:30

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View PostJLZ, on Nov 21 2010 - 15:05, said:

Here is more translation. I'm not Russian. I learned Russian in school only (for 4 years) but could understand them very good :)
Cifu, please, include this addition to your 1st post. Afterward you can delete this and post before.

Nice finding btw  :Smile_great:

Thank you again, updated the opening post.  :Smile_honoring:

I'm not a moderator, cannot delete posts. ;)

feluke #8 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 19:28

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I can't agree with this visibility explanation. Especially with this pic:
http://img695.images...18/57450153.jpg
It doesn't work like this, countless times i couldn't spot anyone even if i saw earlier that part of he's tank is standing out. He just disappear the moment my teammate died and he reappear again in the same spot, the same position i lost sight of him and still part of his tank was standing out.
Maybe this work for tanks and td that have gun in staright line of tank but for russian td's gun is a bit offset, aim is from the tip of gun but visibility might by from the centre of tank and that's why often i can't see enemy even if my gun is showing me that i should be able to see them...
But that didn't happened only when i was playing tds. When i was exchanging fire with someone on the other side of Himmelsdorf main plaza (through windows) he disappeared for a moment and showed again in the same place after 2-3s but nade pass through the place when he should be standing and hit building behind him. He just vanished physically!!

Cifu #9 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 19:51

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View Postfeluke, on Nov 21 2010 - 19:28, said:

I can't agree with this visibility explanation. Especially with this pic:

The source are the russian WoT forum. In this specific case Lukas_von_Salzburg, one of the moderator of that forum.

If you have better source, and/or better explanations, then please unravel for us.

VooDooPC #10 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 20:52

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If I am sitting behind a bush to not be spotted, will I not be able to spot incoming tanks? Is my chance of spotting them higher than their chance of spotting me because I am not moving?

Cifu #11 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 20:54

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View Postmajiger, on Nov 21 2010 - 20:30, said:

Also you missed this part:

Есть ли разница между танками одного класса?
Да, размеры танка влияют на общую заметность. У каждого танка прописаны свои коэффициэнты видимости. (Пример: Во время теста, бизон с экипажем 75%, обнаруживал МС-1 на расстоянии 284м, а немецкий и американский аналоги с 304м.)

What it says is:
Is there a difference between tanks of different class?
Yes, the size of the tank will effect the general spotting. Every tank has its own scripted coefficient of visibility. (Example: During a test, a Bison with a crew of 75% spotted a MS-1(not sure if that's the right English name for the 1st soviet tank XD haven't played on it in a while)at a distance of 284 meters but the German and american equivalents at 304m

Hope that helped! =D

I won't miss that part, just not really understand it. ;)

The part regarding in this matter in the opening post:

Quote

The spotting distance is calculated from two thing. The first one is your tank sight range, your crew skill (the noted sight range of your tank are only gained with 100% crew) and your equipment (coated optics: +10%, binocular: +25% after become stationary for 5 sec), but never be more than 500m. The second one is the target determined visibility stat, defined perhaps from the dimensions of the tanks (our test showed it's not likely the height, the Panther and the JagdPanther showed up exactly the same distance, regardles the JagdPanther is unambiguously shorter - Cifu)

What we won't know what exactly the "size" is. The weight? Unlikely, JP, Panther, Tiger and M6 are all revealed around 340m, but the Panther and JagdPanther weight are 46-48 tons, the Tiger and the M6 are around 10 tons heavier. The height? It's unlikely too, because iin earlier we thest that. The JagdPanther and Panther showed up exactly the same distance. But the JagdPanther have much lower profile. The IS, which around the same height in game as the JagdPanther, is showed up considerably closer. JLZ suggest the volume perhaps the stat, what count. I don't know. I decided to take some more test tomorrow, but i hardly can imagine how we determine the volume of the tanks.

Cifu #12 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 21:04

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View PostVooDooPC, on Nov 21 2010 - 20:52, said:

If I am sitting behind a bush to not be spotted, will I not be able to spot incoming tanks?

As mentioned in the OP, if the bush front of you are closer than 15 meters, then become "invisible" for you, you simply seen through that bush. But for the enemy it's counted still an translucent obstacle. This means you won't need to sit inside the bush to get the cover. That's maybe a reason why my earlier tests are give unrealible results in some case. I was simply won't know how exactly the cover system works - i belive the best way is to drive in the center of the bush.  

View PostVooDooPC, on Nov 21 2010 - 20:52, said:

Is my chance of spotting them higher than their chance of spotting me because I am not moving?

Yes, as Jarineva2 test provide the moving tanks get some penalty to get shighted. The problem is the visibility check time interwal. Perhaps you theoretically see him from 300 meters while you are not moving, but he drive toward you. But the visibility check happen for example every 4 second in that range. So he even can be showed up 4 seconds after, he passed that 300 meters range - and if you get his sight range in that time you even can lost the advantage you gain with not moving...

VooDooPC #13 Posted Nov 21 2010 - 21:56

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It seems too me the best method to use would be doing the range checks by speed of the incoming tank, not by distance. If you have a Leopard going 68kmp/h it can get to you within those 4 seconds and you'll see it at the last second. If you have a MAUS going 25kmp/h, it's still going to be almost the same spot even if the checks are every few seconds. Which we know.

I think if you are in a tank going almost 70kmp/h it should check every 1 second, if you are in a tank going 15kmp/h it can check every 10 seconds. It won't be using the bandwidth of checking every tank every second and faster tanks won't jump out of nowhere.

xecute #14 Posted Nov 22 2010 - 16:32

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I've been playing since this thread was posted with all these factors i nthe front of my mind and it has been helping greatly. Thanks for sharing.

Enduring_Hope #15 Posted Nov 24 2010 - 01:49

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View Postmajiger, on Nov 21 2010 - 20:30, said:

Also you missed this part:

Есть ли разница между танками одного класса?
Да, размеры танка влияют на общую заметность. У каждого танка прописаны свои коэффициэнты видимости. (Пример: Во время теста, бизон с экипажем 75%, обнаруживал МС-1 на расстоянии 284м, а немецкий и американский аналоги с 304м.)

What it says is:
Is there a difference between tanks of different class?
Yes, the size of the tank will effect the general spotting. Every tank has its own scripted coefficient of visibility. (Example: During a test, a Bison with a crew of 75% spotted a MS-1(not sure if that's the right English name for the 1st soviet tank XD haven't played on it in a while)at a distance of 284 meters but the German and american equivalents at 304m

Actually your translation is slightly inaccurate:

The question asks if there is a difference between tanks of the same class (class meaning: medium, heavy, light, TD, etc).  As in, does a T-34 have a different visibility coefficient from a Pz IV or M4 Sherman, even though they are all medium tanks.

And yes, I'm a native Russian speaker (though I haven't lived there for two decades).

EchelonIII #16 Posted Nov 24 2010 - 06:36

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Just to add in, it appears that you can see enemies through destructible but non-transparent obstacles (such as the houses on sand river), can anybody confirm this?

Cifu #17 Posted Nov 24 2010 - 23:18

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View PostJLZ, on Nov 21 2010 - 14:31, said:

Quote

The spotting distance is calculated from two thing. The first one is your tank sight range, your crew skill (the noted sight range of your tank are only gained with 100% crew) and your equipment (coated optics: +10%, binocular: +25% after become stationary for 5 sec), but never be more than 500m. The second one is the target determined visibility stat, defined perhaps from the dimensions of the tanks (our test showed it's not likely the height, the Panther and the JagdPanther showed up exactly the same distance, regardles the JagdPanther is unambiguously shorter - Cifu), and the bonus of the cover (bush), equipment (camo net) and skill.
What about volume of vehicle (lenght x width x height)?

We checked with VoodooPC, and get this result:

In Open, without camo net, the crew have no camouflage skill, the Spotter is a Ferdinand with 100% crew, no optics or binocular:

T-34/85: 307m
M5 Stuart: 337m

The T-34/85 have definitely larger volume, but still, their showed up closer.

M5 Stuart stats IRL:

Length (w/o gun): 4,33 m
Width: 2,24 m
Height: 2,59 m

T-34/85 stats IRL:

Length (w/o gun): 6,1m
Width: 2,99m
Height: 2,72m

Frispel #18 Posted Nov 25 2010 - 14:26

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View Postfeluke, on Nov 21 2010 - 19:28, said:

I can't agree with this visibility explanation. Especially with this pic:
http://img695.images...18/57450153.jpg
It doesn't work like this, countless times i couldn't spot anyone even if i saw earlier that part of he's tank is standing out. He just disappear the moment my teammate died and he reappear again in the same spot, the same position i lost sight of him and still part of his tank was standing out.
Maybe this work for tanks and td that have gun in staright line of tank but for russian td's gun is a bit offset, aim is from the tip of gun but visibility might by from the centre of tank and that's why often i can't see enemy even if my gun is showing me that i should be able to see them...
But that didn't happened only when i was playing tds. When i was exchanging fire with someone on the other side of Himmelsdorf main plaza (through windows) he disappeared for a moment and showed again in the same place after 2-3s but nade pass through the place when he should be standing and hit building behind him. He just vanished physically!!

A bit of speculation regaring the dissapering tanks, if the spotting system is a heavy load on the server, they might have made the system work something like this:

The spotting check is probably done on close tanks fist and if a tank is spotted by one of your team mates that is closer to the target, the server no longer checks if other tanks on your team spot that tank. When the original spotter no longer can spot the target tank (dead or out of sight) the server resets the target as "not spotted" and then make a check against other tanks, resulting in the tank dissapearing for a few seconds until a succesful spotting check is done buy you or someone else on your team.

Cifu #19 Posted Nov 25 2010 - 20:01

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View PostJLZ, on Nov 25 2010 - 12:48, said:

Shame no one who have ingame mechanics knowledge didn't join topic. Empirical experiments and deduction aren't enough obviously.

I have the feeling the "devs" in this forum are won't have any clue. They are the staff of the Wargaming.net. The real developers are give hints in the russian forums and the Wg.net staff get those, and post here. An example: 2010, Nov. 17, a Belorussian developer post about the IS-4 armor buff. In 2010, Nov. 23, Overlord posted essentially the same in this forum. Coincidence?  :Smile_harp:

That's why we perhaps never get a straight answer related to ingame mechanics. What we get from them is a copy-paste from the russian WoT forum. But we can do that too - like in this topic opening post...

There is a language barrier between us and the real devs. They won't follow this forum, and perhaps only get notices what happen in this forum from Wargaming.net.

I find this a bit embarrassing...

Gud_Flyhardur #20 Posted Nov 26 2010 - 12:34

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Added the initial Post to the Wiki: http://www.wotwiki.n...owSpottingWorks

Please correct all inacuracies.




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