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50mm L/60 vs 40mm mk. X


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Boriswar #1 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:08

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I just went through the stats of the british 2 pounder mark X and compared them to the german 50mm KwK 39 L/60,
I had skipped over the first matilda turret and guns with free XP mostly because I remembered the 40mm being a historically crap gun after 1942,
and was contently enjoying myself with the 40mm Long Tom and its ridiculous penetration. However, after being thoroughly shat on from the front when using my t-34
by another matilda mounting the first 40mm, I decided to check its stats, which are as follows;

caliber: 40mm
Rate of fire: 28.57
Average penetration: 78/121/23
average damage: 50/50/60
accuracy: .36 at 100 meters
Aim time: 1.7 secs
weight: 170 KG

this surprised me as it completely outclasses the german panzer III's 50mm KwK, which as I remembered, completely out-classed the 40mm in every way

the panzer III's L/60 stats follow

Caliber: 50mm
Rate of fire: 26
Average penetration: 67/130/25
Average damage: 70/70/90
Accuracy: .40 at 100 meters
Aim time: 2.3
weight: 700 KG

Now, let me get this straight, a shorter barreled, lower velocity, lighter, and lower calibered cannon, out performs a heavier gun (by nearly 530 KG!), higher velocity,
longer barreled, and larger caliber weapon in EVERY FIELD IMAGINABLE save for  20 damage!?

This
is
WRONG

I can and will sight many sources that state the COMPLETE out performance of the 40mm by the 50mm L/60

The actual penetration values for the 50mm are as follows




Thickness of armor penetrated (range in meters)
100 400    1000
Pzgr 39   69, 73 59, 61    48, 50


note: The 50mm shell weighs 4.5 KG and has an initial muzzle velocity of 2,739 f/s or 823 m/s

now maybe this seems a little close to what we already have, but bear in mine that the 50mm should be penetrating a minimum of 60mm at this range, not 50mm like we have in game

now lets take a look at the 2pdr

   Thickness of armor penetrated (range in meters)
  100 400    1000
AP   58, 61   52, 53    45, 48


Note: the 40mm shell weighs 2lb and has an initial muzzle velocity of 2600 f/s or  765 m/s

Not only does the 50mm consistently penetrate 10 or more mm of armor, it fires a heavier shell faster than the 40mm




I'm not suggesting that we nerf the 40mm, its right where it should be, i'm simply suggesting that we buff the 50mm up to historical levels. My proposal is not a massive buff, but one of a mere 10mm of armor

from 50 to 60mm, that is all, the new 50mm would look more like;

60mm-94mm

Is that really too much to ask?

I dont want an accuracy buff or an RoF buff, heck, balance it by nerfing the rof to 22, it doesnt bother me, but Its sad watching a gun half as long as mine and using an 8Lb lighter shell, penetrating a KV from the front while I sit there twiddeling my thumbs. It would still leave the t-28 with its wtfboom 57mm , and the m3-lee with its machine gun 75, but it would also give us german players a chance in hell against some of the tanks we face.

So go on WG, give it a go in the next test server, if its too much to buff a tier III german gun up to tier 4 with 60-94 pen, then leave it, but I really doubt it will.


On another note, I would recommend using that website to look up other guns, it has some good stuff.

German 50mm penetration chart:

http://www.wwiivehic.../guns/50-mm.asp

40mm Penetration chart:

http://www.wwiivehic...tion-tables.asp


Discuss.

PSYCO_GANG #2 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:11

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It kills me to say this but most penetration values in this game are completely arbitrary. I wish we could have a game like WOT with historical accuracy but it won't happen here. Just accept it and move on.

Boriswar #3 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:12

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View PostPSYCO_GANG, on Nov 16 2012 - 23:11, said:

It kills me to say this but most penetration values in this game are completely arbitrary. I wish we could have a game like WOT with historical accuracy but it won't happen here. Just accept it and move on.

its just irks me because EVERY other gun in the game has somewhat realistic values (save the short 88) but this one does not.

PSYCO_GANG #4 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:17

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View PostBoriswar, on Nov 16 2012 - 23:12, said:

its just irks me because EVERY other gun in the game has somewhat realistic values (save the short 88) but this one does not.
That is where you are wrong. Nearly every German gun has lower penetration than it had historically. There are a few threads floating around that go into depth about it. See if you can find  them.

McBaconater #5 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:18

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just another example of why this is a game and not a simulater . everything gets buffed or nerfed or buffed and nerfed...generals in the field didnt say" hey this gun sucks lets adjust the stats on it to get more pen...changing anything in historical events involved totally retooling a production line . in wot of tanks anything that doesnt fit just gets a tweek of numbers in the program and bam...instant buff/nerf. it's a game..a fun tank game , not a historically acurate simulater .

Scorpion_Strike #6 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:21

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I don't see much harm in buffing the 50mm L/60's penetration to bring a bit of historical balance, at the moment the gun is useless on most tanks you can get it on. I specifically remember my Pz III and VK1602 feeling rather poor in terms of firepower, a bit more penetration would really help there.

Dirizon #7 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:23

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Pak 38 L6O 5cm has quite a damage bracket over the 4cm 2 PDR. And that 2 PDR you are using is the upgraded one.

Boriswar #8 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:24

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View PostDirizon, on Nov 16 2012 - 23:23, said:

Pak 38 L6O 5cm has quite a damage bracket over the 4cm 2 PDR. And that 2 PDR you are using is the upgraded one.

1. 20 damage is nearly nothing if you can't penetrate
2. This is the Stock 40mm

nathanjangs97 #9 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:27

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I know the british 2pdr gun, I thought it was useless against german armor, but when I played it I was wrong, but herer my next question yo you, can a 6pdr gun can do much damage than the german 75mm L/48

Boriswar #10 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:28

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View Postnathanjangs97, on Nov 16 2012 - 23:27, said:

I know the british 2pdr gun, I thought it was useless against german armor, but when I played it I was wrong, but herer my next question yo you, can a 6pdr gun can do much damage than the german 75mm L/48

I have no quarrels with the 57mm, its pen is realistic and it deals fair damage for it size

Tiger_23 #11 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:31

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WOT =/= RL

German and Russian guns have the WoT parameters.

McBaconater #12 Posted Nov 16 2012 - 23:34

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View PostScorpion_Strike, on Nov 16 2012 - 23:21, said:

I don't see much harm in buffing the 50mm L/60's penetration to bring a bit of historical balance, at the moment the gun is useless on most tanks you can get it on. I specifically remember my Pz III and VK1602 feeling rather poor in terms of firepower, a bit more penetration would really help there.
they have that..they are called gold rounds , and now everyone can use them even if your broke and cant ever buy gold .