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Panzer IV Ausf D?


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Wikikomoto #1 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 16:46

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i noticed a Panzer IV Ausf D or possibly an F on the map abby, i believe its on a few other maps aswell. my question is, why isnt this tank in the game? the panzer IV presented in the game has the later model turret with smoke dischargers and the storage crate mounted. would it be possible to see the earlier model panzer IV in the game? perhaps as a premium tier IV?

DeathMongrel #2 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 16:57

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I would like to see the initial production models of many tanks, especially the Pz IV.  Too hard to put together and run Historical Battles when the in-game version has nearly 4 times the armor as the actual version involved in particular campaigns.

Legiondude #3 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 17:10

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Why would anyone play it as an in tree tank? The Ausf. F/G/H we have in game has better armor and better equipment than the D

Lert #4 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 17:20

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Uh ... It is in the game. Tier 5? PzKpfw IV? Put the stock turret on with the 75 L/24, presto, your precious Ausf. D. Sure, some minor cosmetic things will be different, but it's a game. Besides, not all Ausf. D's were the same.

EndlesNights #5 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 17:23

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View PostLert, on Nov 20 2012 - 17:20, said:

Uh ... It is in the game. Tier 5? PzKpfw IV? Put the stock turret on with the 75 L/24, presto, your precious Ausf. D. Sure, some minor cosmetic things will be different, but it's a game. Besides, not all Ausf. D's were the same.

No it's not we have the Ausf G&H, the turret had the smoke dispensers, and the hull is twice as thick, it's not only about the gun the tank was equipped with.

I'd also like to see an earlier version of the Panzer III, the Ausf E had a much weaker compared to what we get, the Ausf M hull

Same cna be said for the IS, we currently have the IS-2 hull, it'd be nice to see the origonal full slope hull

Edited by EndlesNights, Nov 20 2012 - 17:28.


Gohibniu #6 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 17:23

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I was about to say that Lert.  Good memory.  I think even an earlier version had a 37mm?

Edited by Gohibniu, Nov 20 2012 - 17:24.


Lert #7 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 17:31

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View PostEndlesNights, on Nov 20 2012 - 17:23, said:

No it's not, the turret had the smoke dispensers, and the hull is twice as thick, it's not only about the gun the tank was equipped with
It's a game, not a historical sim. Some details are going to be different between the visual models and the historical ones. If we're going to put every different ausf. or every different mark of whatever tank into the game and distinguish tanks for their damn smoke launchers, we'll have tech trees with 15 parallel lines which are all different in minute things that don't even impact gameplay. I'll admit that thicker hull armor would change gameplay, but that still leaves a tank that's similar enough in everything else that it doesn't warrant a whole new in-game version.

I mean, for pete's sake, we already have two different Pz IV's in the game and you want to add a third? I honestly don't see how such tiny details - even less than between the M4A1, M4A3E8 and M4A3E2 in the game - would warrant a whole additional tank.

So a game with 200+ tanks, with another 50+ in final testing planned and even more planned does not have that one specific little tank with those specific smoke launchers. Woop-ti-bucking-do.

EndlesNights #8 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 18:23

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View PostLert, on Nov 20 2012 - 17:31, said:

It's a game, not a historical sim. Some details are going to be different between the visual models and the historical ones. If we're going to put every different ausf. or every different mark of whatever tank into the game and distinguish tanks for their damn smoke launchers, we'll have tech trees with 15 parallel lines which are all different in minute things that don't even impact gameplay. I'll admit that thicker hull armor would change gameplay, but that still leaves a tank that's similar enough in everything else that it doesn't warrant a whole new in-game version.

I mean, for pete's sake, we already have two different Pz IV's in the game and you want to add a third? I honestly don't see how such tiny details - even less than between the M4A1, M4A3E8 and M4A3E2 in the game - would warrant a whole additional tank.

So a game with 200+ tanks, with another 50+ in final testing planned and even more planned does not have that one specific little tank with those specific smoke launchers. Woop-ti-bucking-do.


Oh some one's a little touchy, bringing out the Bold fonts

It actually is the same differences compared to the M4 variants, The Ausf D to Ausf G saw several large changes, including reformation of the front hull and an entire re-purposing of the tank from anti-infantry/pill box to anti-tank. an almost identical development path that the Sherman saw except it happened over a much shorter period of time.

also, looks what's being possibly planned for 8.3

Source: http://forum.worldof...ussian-answers/

Quote

I'd like to thank the guys at German forum (Opferlamm, Alpharius, Raguel and others) for doing basically the same thing I do here - this info comes from them. It's from the same source that brought you the Chinese tree preview a week ago (http://forum.worldof...0/#entry3129490)[link broken], however please note that this is NOT officially confirmed yet.
Patch 8.3 will be about Germans. The tree will be separated into two branches like this:

Quote

Pz 2 Ausf H - redesigned T2
Pz 3 - redesigned T4
Pz 3 Ausf. J - new T5
Pz 4 Ausf. C/D - new T4
Pz 4 Ausf. F - redesigned T5
3 light tanks shall be added - it is not clear whether they will be high tier scouts (probably) - there is an option that they will replace the Czechoslovak tanks (Panzer 35t, Panzer 38t), which are bound to show up later in the EU tree.
These tanks are: 3 different VK 2001, VK 3002 (MAN), krupp 38 (d)

So yah i hope you enjoy your bucking Lert!

have a nice day ^_^

Edited by EndlesNights, Nov 20 2012 - 19:16.


Legiondude #9 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 18:48

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View PostEndlesNights, on Nov 20 2012 - 18:23, said:

It actually is the same differences compared to the M4 variants, The Ausf D to Ausf G saw several large changes, including reformation of the front hull and an entire re-purpossing of the tank from anti-infinity/pull box to anti-tank. an almost identical development path that the Sherman saw except it happened over a much shorter period of time.
Except from Ausf. A to Ausf. D it had only 1 gun. The M4A3's have access to the M1A2 along with their original variety of weapons), Ausf. F/G/H still has better armor and equipment for the game

repurposing*
anti-infantry*
pill-box*

Quote

also, looks what's being possibly planned for 8.3

Source: http://forum.worldof...ussian-answers/
I use that forum topic often, but the part you're citing is clearly stated to be a theory, and will remain so until otherwise confirmed

Lert #10 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 18:55

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Oh, how nice. I don't even have to debunk EndlessNights' reply, LegionDude did it for me.  :Smile_popcorn1:

Have a nice day!

Celebrim #11 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 19:30

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I also would like to see hull diversity, but I'd like it added to the existing tank trees in the form of refits, rather than added to the existing tech trees in the form of tanks.  I think it would be better to have minor hull modifictions and armor layout changes as a 'hull' upgrade similar to the existing turret upgrades.

Basically, if your tank is elite already, you'd now have the upgrades researched for free.  Otherwise, a nominal cost in XP would be required to get the new hulls.

However, I think this is unnecessary unless a Historical matchmaker is introduced that matches tanks by year of service and nationality rather than tier.   (A discussion of the details of how that would work is outside the scope of the thread.)   If you have a Historical matchmaker though, it is important to distinguish Panzer IV Ausf D from a Panver IV Ausf H.  

One of the advantage of a refit system is that you make tanks more accessible to support a Historical mode, and you also make room for additional nods to realism if you wish to keep stirring simulation elements in with the arcade action.   I personally feel that the attraction of WoT is the marriage of those two elements, a sort of casual realism that keeps the arcade action grounded enough that it doesn't feel like pure fantasy.  It is a game, but it is also a game that has more success than an equivalent game with sci-fi tanks would have precisely because of the casual adherence to real world steel.  You certainly wouldn't be this successful cateering to pure military grognardia, but on the other hand I think even for the casual kids, the real world steel increases the games fascination.  One bit of evidence of this is that it is often as not the casual kids asking for more nods to reality.   Some of those suggestions - like real gun barrel physics - are probably bad ideas, but I think it is a mistake to dismiss all nods to reality as having little value 'because it is game'.

Frankly, in some areas the game is just about as arcadey as I can take.  M4's and Pz IV's running around with 105mm howitzers, firing on the move, in closed top, fully automatic, fully traversable turrets booming other tanks with HE shells are right at the limits of the arcadish action I can take.  The only Pz IV variant I know of that had a 105mm howitzer in a turret was the Selbtsfahrlafette IVb 18/1 - SdKfz. 165/1, and it could only traverse the turret 35 degrees left and right, had to be hand cranked, and was open topped.  The 105mm armed M4 was a bit more capable in some regards (the M4 was a heavier tank and had more room), but was similarly limited.  If the game goes further from realism, I don't think I could take it.

Lert #12 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 19:36

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View PostCelebrim, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:30, said:

Selbtsfahrlafette IVb 18/1 - SdKfz. 165/1
http://mymodelizm.ru...images/88_1.jpg

http://www.panzer-mo...zsfl4b/f02g.jpg

I like it.

Actually, if we're going to introduce another more-or-less-tier-5-premie, introduce this. It would make a fine tier 5 TD with the 105 with HEAT shells. Balanced by being opentopped and limited traverse.

Are you sure it's a Pz IV variant, though? Six roadwheels and three return rollers would more indicate a Pz III variant.

EndlesNights #13 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 19:41

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View PostLegiondude, on Nov 20 2012 - 18:48, said:

Except from Ausf. A to Ausf. D it had only 1 gun. The M4A3's have access to the M1A2 along with their original variety of weapons), Ausf. F/G/H still has better armor and equipment for the game

repurposing*
anti-infantry*
pill-box*


I use that forum topic often, but the part you're citing is clearly stated to be a theory, and will remain so until otherwise confirmed

Oh no i made some trivial spelling mistakes i must be talking sh*t! The exact information i quoted form Tishler here:http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/179428-changes-to-the-low-tier-german-mediums-in-83/
And I said it was "possibly planned for 8.3" never confirmed

the Ausf D had trials for other guns such as 50mm KwK 39/Pak 38 L/60
It was in the Ausf J variant that the hull was upgraded to 80mm

So besides correcting a couple spelling errors that was a great debunk! thank you very much!

Legiondude #14 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 19:54

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View PostEndlesNights, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:41, said:

Oh no i made some trivial spelling mistakes i must be talking sh*t! The exact information i quoted form Tishler here:http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/179428-changes-to-the-low-tier-german-mediums-in-83/
And I said it was "possibly planned for 8.3" never confirmed
Still, using something as shaky as a hunch by a couple of German players does not make your argument for an Ausf D any stronger

Quote

the Ausf D had trials for other guns such as 50mm KwK 39/Pak 38 L/60
Fine then, 1 gun upgrade. Now show that it's worthwhile in comparison to the Panzer III

Quote

It was in the Ausf J variant that the hull was upgraded to 80mm
Nope, that was Ausf. G that bolted on the extra 30mm plates

EndlesNights #15 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 20:10

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View PostLert, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:36, said:


I just did a quick search on this, yes it's a pzIII chaise, but they also made a similar variant using the PzIV chassis as well as PzII
From what i read this is actually this is not a TD but SPG using the 105 mm leFH much like the French artillery piece the 105 leFH18B2
Then again, seeing how the Germans loved there assault guns (StuH 42) this could make a nice TD

Here is a variant built on the PzIV
Spoiler                     

View PostLegiondude, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:54, said:

Nope, that was Ausf. G that bolted on the extra 30mm plates

I was always under the impression that the Ausf. G was just had 50mm with an addition 30mm plate being added on as a latter upgrade, while the Ausf. J was just a single 80mm plate


View PostLegiondude, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:54, said:

Still, using something as shaky as a hunch by a couple of German players does not make your argument for an Ausf D any stronger

Once again just a possibility that might be coming with 8.3, you don't know it's not and i don't know it will happen, but considering War Games wishes to introduce Historic battles, it will probably happen eventually and i see no harm in what introducing diffident varies of tanks will do. And not to mention they've already done it a several times

Edited by EndlesNights, Nov 20 2012 - 20:58.


nicodeimous #16 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 20:32

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View PostCelebrim, on Nov 20 2012 - 19:30, said:

I also would like to see hull diversity, but I'd like it added to the existing tank trees in the form of refits, rather than added to the existing tech trees in the form of tanks.  I think it would be better to have minor hull modifictions and armor layout changes as a 'hull' upgrade similar to the existing turret upgrades.

Basically, if your tank is elite already, you'd now have the upgrades researched for free.  Otherwise, a nominal cost in XP would be required to get the new hulls.

However, I think this is unnecessary unless a Historical matchmaker is introduced that matches tanks by year of service and nationality rather than tier.   (A discussion of the details of how that would work is outside the scope of the thread.)   If you have a Historical matchmaker though, it is important to distinguish Panzer IV Ausf D from a Panver IV Ausf H.  

One of the advantage of a refit system is that you make tanks more accessible to support a Historical mode, and you also make room for additional nods to realism if you wish to keep stirring simulation elements in with the arcade action.   I personally feel that the attraction of WoT is the marriage of those two elements, a sort of casual realism that keeps the arcade action grounded enough that it doesn't feel like pure fantasy.  It is a game, but it is also a game that has more success than an equivalent game with sci-fi tanks would have precisely because of the casual adherence to real world steel.  You certainly wouldn't be this successful cateering to pure military grognardia, but on the other hand I think even for the casual kids, the real world steel increases the games fascination.  One bit of evidence of this is that it is often as not the casual kids asking for more nods to reality.   Some of those suggestions - like real gun barrel physics - are probably bad ideas, but I think it is a mistake to dismiss all nods to reality as having little value 'because it is game'.

Frankly, in some areas the game is just about as arcadey as I can take.  M4's and Pz IV's running around with 105mm howitzers, firing on the move, in closed top, fully automatic, fully traversable turrets booming other tanks with HE shells are right at the limits of the arcadish action I can take.  The only Pz IV variant I know of that had a 105mm howitzer in a turret was the Selbtsfahrlafette IVb 18/1 - SdKfz. 165/1, and it could only traverse the turret 35 degrees left and right, had to be hand cranked, and was open topped.  The 105mm armed M4 was a bit more capable in some regards (the M4 was a heavier tank and had more room), but was similarly limited.  If the game goes further from realism, I don't think I could take it.

Like the idea of hull diversity.

RedShocktrooper #17 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 20:38

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I remember hearing that the Panzer 35/38 and nA would be getting swapped out for different tanks entirely in 8.3, and the 38 nA's replacement will be an early model Panzer IV.

Though I'm curious as to if they'll let it mount the Ausf. F's 75mm L/43 or find some other gun so that it doesn't overshadow the Panzer III.

nicodeimous #18 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 20:42

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Think it would make a good tier 4 premium tank, the hulls not uniform like it is on the latter models, the machine gun ball and plates inset a bit from the driver slit and plate.  The gun would be the 75mm short, the in game tank is a F model and up hull.

nicodeimous #19 Posted Nov 20 2012 - 20:43

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View PostRedShocktrooper, on Nov 20 2012 - 20:38, said:

I remember hearing that the Panzer 35/38 and nA would be getting swapped out for different tanks entirely in 8.3, and the 38 nA's replacement will be an early model Panzer IV.

Though I'm curious as to if they'll let it mount the Ausf. F's 75mm L/43 or find some other gun so that it doesn't overshadow the Panzer III.

Will be watching patch notes then, to make sure and get those two in garage before the swap out :)

Wikikomoto #20 Posted Dec 14 2012 - 16:59

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you know, at this point i'd even just be happy with a skin. sure i'd love to see it in-game with the same armor properties and chassis, but atleast a fan made skin would look the part..




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