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[WN7] What is it and how does it work?

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Praetor77 #1121 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 22:07

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It´s on purpouse.

Muton, if your average tier is over 6, playing tier 5 is not gonna reduce your WN score. Even for players with average tier 5 played, score reduction is 50 points. Not much IMHO.

Muton #1122 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 00:12

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Obviously if one's ave tier is over 6 playing tier 5 is not going to reduce the WN score. The problem is one has to get to tier 6 first.

No problem for people who buy a tier 8 premium and free XP past tiers 1-4. Big problem for people who play a lot of tier 5 now and actually play the game to play the tanks (ie. trying out many tanks no matter the tier for more than the obligatory 20-50 games before unlocking the next one). Also, those who own tier 5 premiums are going to continue to play them a lot thereby dragging their ave. tier down.

WG designed the game around tier 5. WN6 is basically saying that playing the game at tier 5 should be punished. Only 50 points? 0 is better.

I'm merely suggesting that the formula can be improved to target the hard-core seal clubbers at tiers 1/2 instead of using a shotgun and spraying the people playing the game at tier 5 as well. There are two approaches to credit grinding: buy a tier 8 premium or run a few tier 4/5/6's. WN6 punishes the latter.

tornade90 #1123 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 00:37

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WG designed this game from tier 1 to 10 for a simple reason.
its harder to aim correctly a tier 10 than a damn tier 1. Pubs stat padders are in large numbers at tier 5 (M4 and PIV Derp gold).
Punishing players for playing the easy way vs noob players below tier 6 is more than correct by my opininon.

Boosting stats for being the best of the weakest group is correct for you ?
You need to play against the best to know how skilled you are, not against kids and old men.

Zhao_Zilong #1124 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 01:30

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View PostMuton, on Jan 24 2013 - 00:12, said:

Obviously if one's ave tier is over 6 playing tier 5 is not going to reduce the WN score. The problem is one has to get to tier 6 first.

No problem for people who buy a tier 8 premium and free XP past tiers 1-4. Big problem for people who play a lot of tier 5 now and actually play the game to play the tanks (ie. trying out many tanks no matter the tier for more than the obligatory 20-50 games before unlocking the next one). Also, those who own tier 5 premiums are going to continue to play them a lot thereby dragging their ave. tier down.

WG designed the game around tier 5. WN6 is basically saying that playing the game at tier 5 should be punished. Only 50 points? 0 is better.

I'm merely suggesting that the formula can be improved to target the hard-core seal clubbers at tiers 1/2 instead of using a shotgun and spraying the people playing the game at tier 5 as well. There are two approaches to credit grinding: buy a tier 8 premium or run a few tier 4/5/6's. WN6 punishes the latter.

50 points each way doesn't make that big of a difference to your excellent rating - if I see you in a tier 5 tank I still see you as a potential priority target. But really, you know that when you play tier 5 you still see tier 3 tanks; and someone in a tier 5 showing up with a gold derp cannon will one-shot their tier 3 opposition. Not saying you use derps in tier 5, but for others doing that, that looks like seal-clubbing to me. It is at tier 6 that I believe the real fight begins though, where even a gold derp E2 cannot one-shot most tanks 2 tiers below them.

I also note I could've farmed credits with my regular tier 6 tanks just fine. I farm credits using my KV1S and T150 and break even in my E2 or E8.

Faltalis #1125 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 02:43

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View PostPraetor77, on Jan 23 2013 - 22:07, said:

It´s on purpouse.

Muton, if your average tier is over 6, playing tier 5 is not gonna reduce your WN score. Even for players with average tier 5 played, score reduction is 50 points. Not much IMHO.

50 points seems a little excessive.

For me it's the difference between WN4 1838 and WN6 1788. Unless WN has a different colour system than efficiency that's the difference between unicum (purple) and not unicum.

Edited by Faltalis, Jan 24 2013 - 02:45.


NeatoMan #1126 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 02:51

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View PostFaltalis, on Jan 24 2013 - 02:43, said:

50 points seems a little excessive.

For me it's the difference between WN4 1838 and WN6 1788. Unless WN has a different colour system than efficiency that's the difference between unicum (purple) and not unicum.
you're worried about the color next to your name in your sig, or on XVM?  You know, it's not gonna make you win or lose any more than you already are.  In fact, it has no purpose other than maybe stroke your ego.

Vandelay #1127 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 02:59

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1 point makes a difference if you're right on 2000.

But honestly who gives a toss. As long as it's roughly correct. Hell, five more points and I'll be super unicum, but I'm not that bothered either way.

Muton #1128 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 02:59

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There are enough sharks and skilled platoons playing in tier 5 to make it not so much a sure thing. I agree it is still largely full of inexperienced players but certainly not like tier 1 or 2 where the UMB's of the world truly are like men among boys. Also, UncleDolphy, next time that tier 3 could be a tier 7 :)

I'm not here to defend tier 5 derpers (including my own) but there are plenty of other tanks in tier 5 that are not including a plethora of premiums (Ram II, T14, etc.). When I'm running my Matilda IV, T14, Churchill III and Ram II it is to train the crews that are progressing down those trees. Surely an improvement could be made in the formula to target the tier 1/2 baby seal clubbers and 105 HEAT derpers (since it seems they have been added to the category) and not harm the "normal" tanks (non-HEAT and tier 5 premiums). Not to mention all those inexperienced tier 5 players who are innocently progressing up the trees.

@tornade90:  I'm not afraid of high tiers. I'm doing quite fine with my tier 8 JPII so far; T-44 was a slow start but is only -1 win/loss. Just bought ISU-152. I play my 20 tanks all equally for their doubles and am slowly moving up the trees like anybody else. However, tier 5 is where I make my credits. I own four tier 5 premiums for training crews. I will be running those for a long time probably forever. I can't help that WG screwed up tier 5/6 with sprem. I've posted my opposition to sprem in those threads but until WG does something about HEAT I will have to use them like everyone else.

Target the tier 1 and 2 seal clubbers specifically. If 105 HEAT is inflating scores than by all means target them too if you want. However, I would think that there are enough math and stat savvy people who have contributed commendably so far that an improvement can be found rather than just slapping a blanket tier 6 cap up and calling it job done.

Edited by Muton, Jan 24 2013 - 03:26.


Faltalis #1129 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 03:03

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View PostNeatoMan, on Jan 24 2013 - 02:51, said:

you're worried about the color next to your name in your sig, or on XVM?  You know, it's not gonna make you win or lose any more than you already are.  In fact, it has no purpose other than maybe stroke your ego.

Yes it's to stroke my ego.

I was just wondering where the cut off range for Unicum was for WN ratings as even though my WN6 dropped to 1788 it stayed purple. Unlike if my efficiency were to drop more than 200 points and I was down in the 1700 range then it would change to blue (or dark green in xvm.. I don't use xvm though)

tornade90 #1130 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 04:00

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Then Faltalis ... do some more tier 8-10 to become a real unicum player.

Posted Image

Edited by tornade90, Jan 24 2013 - 04:00.


Faltalis #1131 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 04:43

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I play all tiers because I find the different tiers fun. My win rate for all my tier 10 tanks are 60+ with well over 2000 efficiency.

Are those muscles or tumors.. o.O

tornade90 #1132 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 05:09

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Well ... actually I think you played too much MS-1

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Faltalis #1133 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 05:15

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View Posttornade90, on Jan 24 2013 - 05:09, said:

Well ... actually I think you played too much MS-1

Ya I agree  :Smile_confused:

When I was first showed the game I was like "I'm going to be the best MS-1 player that ever lived" After 600 battles or so I got bored of it and moved onto the higher tiers ( like 3) Then after a very long time finally I'm here where I am now. Now my poor MS-1 is subject to only being dusted off during X5 weekends if it's lucky.

Tier 10 is where it counts...


T-62A
Battles 523
Victories  321 (61.38%)
Efficiency  Unicum - 2,608.08
Average Experience  895.00
Average Damage  2,190.53

E50M
Battles 241
Victories  153 (63.49%)
Efficiency  Unicum - 2,224.96
Average Experience  859.00
Average Damage  2,416.30

Batchat
Battles 183
Victories  116 (63.39%)
Efficiency  Unicum - 3,168.30
Average Experience  892.00
Average Damage  2,274.00

Edited by Faltalis, Jan 24 2013 - 05:24.


tornade90 #1134 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 05:50

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Yeah these stats are good and with more T10 games you can retake easy your 100 points drop.

Tier - Tank Count - Battles - Efficiency

Tier VIII - 20 - 3 338 - 1 950,68
Tier IX   - 11 - 2 393 - 2 433,43
Tier X    - 18 - 4 732 - 2 502,88

As you can see, I got 10 463 battles tier 8+ on 13 677 total.
That's 76.50% of all my battles and that's why my WN6 didnt drop that much from my normal efficiency.

Edited by tornade90, Jan 24 2013 - 05:51.


Faltalis #1135 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 06:06

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View Posttornade90, on Jan 24 2013 - 05:50, said:

Yeah these stats are good and with more T10 games you can retake easy your 100 points drop.

Tier - Tank Count - Battles - Efficiency

Tier VIII - 20 - 3 338 - 1 950,68
Tier IX   - 11 - 2 393 - 2 433,43
Tier X - 18 - 4 732 - 2 502,88

As you can see, I got 10 463 battles tier 8+ on 13 677 total.
That's 76.50% of all my battles and that's why my WN6 didnt drop that much from my normal efficiency.

I only dropped 50. With the penalty of having an average tier of 5-5.9. It'll take me a very long time to reach an average tier of 6 maybe never because of the variety of tanks I play.

Tier - Tank Count - Battles - Efficiency
Tier V - 20 -   3,523 - 1,781.61 This tier has by far my highest number of games played. Thanks to tanks like PzIV, Matilda, T-50-2, VK2801, Chaffee, etc.

Tier VIII -   11 - 1,751 - 2,184.61
Tier IX   -   6 -    1,080 - 2,216.13
Tier X -   3 -   947 - 2,667.11

Edit. Damn that's a lot of tier ten's you've played.

Edited by Faltalis, Jan 24 2013 - 06:07.


Praetor77 #1136 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 06:18

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There are simply too many OP tier 5 tanks right now to not penalize it (even though it is a very small amount). Besides, a 1970 player to me is exactly the same as a 2030 player. Hes DAMN GOOD! I don´t really care about the colors, they are just rough guides.

Faltalis, your tier 10 stats are good, but they are not GREAT. Even I have better stats with my T62 and Batchat, and I consider I do not play them very well as I play too aggressively often and die quick by risking too much in many games.

Anyways, you have a great rating. You are still in the top 1% of the server. As I posted a few pages back... this applies very closely for WN6...

WN5 Percentage Better than X% of server
-400 3.0% 0.0%
400-699 22.0% 3.0%
700-899 25.0% 25.0%
900-1099 23.0% 50.0%
1100-1349 17.0% 73.0%
1350-1499 5.0% 90.0%
1500-1699 3.0% 95.0%
1700-1999 1.0% 99.0%
2000+ 0.2% 99.8%

Anyways, it is linear, for tier 5 you get penalized 60 points, for 5.8 you get penalized 12 points....

Muton as I said too many OP tanks in tier 5, plus the amount of noobs in those matches is considerably greater than in tier 6+. The amount of terribad tier 3 players is astounding. You should be expected to be penalized a bit as a trade off for playing vs so many noobs...

Edited by Praetor77, Jan 24 2013 - 06:22.


Faltalis #1137 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 06:31

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View PostPraetor77, on Jan 24 2013 - 06:18, said:

Faltalis, your tier 10 stats are good, but they are not GREAT. Even I have better stats with my T62 and Batchat, and I consider I do not play them very well as I play too aggressively often and die quick by risking too much in many games.


Ya.. by looking at your Bat and T-62A stats I wouldn't say you're better in them than me in them....

EDIT: Although we seem to be on the same-ish level on the Batchat.

Thanks for clarifying that it is a linear relationship.

Edited by Faltalis, Jan 24 2013 - 06:45.


Praetor77 #1138 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 14:09

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No prob, not measuring epeens. I was simply using avg damage :D

Edited by Praetor77, Jan 24 2013 - 14:10.


Makaze2048 #1139 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 15:41

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Kind of torn on this issue. On the one hand a tier 6 cutoff feels too high because even if we assume that tier 6 is legitimate, a player who does nothing but tier 6 games upon reaching that level will actually never have an average tier of 6. Just the act of getting to tier 6 means he'll always be below that mark and thus receiving a negative modifier despite doing everything "correctly". On the other hand it is a tiny pull down in the above situation. And well to take me for example, with an average tier of 5.6, considering my Marder II/SU-26 stats I should probably be getting penalized more than I am. So while I think it's good enough for now I'd hesitate to set the tier 6 point in stone. More importantly in the future I would still love to get a more thorough breakdown of tiers played (possible from the profile page as was demonstrated a few pages back) and use that to construct an effective tier, tier distribution value, or just a simple seal clubber quotient (% of games played in tiers 1-3 vs. total for example) and use that instead of or to modify average tier. Since there are so many ways to arrive at the exact same average, some of which we accept as normal and others we'd like to rate low.

As for the tier 5 derps, I think it's probably a mistake to modify the rating system overall for a few specifically overpowered tanks. I'm all for screening out OP tanks by looking for outliers in peoples stats (possible with dossier, less so with profiles). Applying a negative modifier if someone has a single tank with a much higher WR than all their others and plays it a great deal for example. But that would be a generic process that makes no judgement calls about what is or is not OP, it's just excluding anomalous data. So if the tier 6 pivot point is in place because that's where competition really starts and most opponents are considered to have passed the basic competency threshold then great, if it's to push down M4/Pz4 derps then not so great since that's likely at least a somewhat temporary situation and negatively effect people who aren't abusing those specific tanks.

Also, great news! Just saw that the newest XVM beta has WN6 in it. Hooray, I will be trying it out shortly.

Praetor77 #1140 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 16:04

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:D

http://code.google.c...t2.zip&can=2&q=

Gotta wait a week for DB to update though...

Edited by Praetor77, Jan 24 2013 - 16:30.






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