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[WN7] What is it and how does it work?

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HypersonicGlider #2441 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:40

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View Postsr360, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:38, said:

Ah, English is not required for your PhD either, it seems.
Can't read, can't do math, no comprehension, no writing ability. Where is this PhD? Some online diploma mill?
LOL this is not phd dissertation. And your answer repeat the noobs response in game again. "poor English" something like that, but just dare to face real questions.
I admit my English is not good, not like you who dare to face your poor arithmetic.
BTW I am glad the committee evaluated my degree based on my specialty, not on English.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 20:20.


sr360 #2442 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:41

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View Postbanach, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:40, said:

LOL this is not phd dissertation. And your answer repeat the noobs response in game again. "poor English" something like that. But just dare to face real questions.

The defense rests, your honor.

HypersonicGlider #2443 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:46

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View Postsr360, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:41, said:

The defense rests, your honor.
Page 126 or even 125 has no your post at all. Tell me how you did the arithmetic. LOL

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 19:47.


sr360 #2444 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:47

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View Postbanach, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:46, said:

Page 125 and 126 has no your post at all. Tell me how you did the arithmetic. LOL

The defense continues to rest.

HypersonicGlider #2445 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:50

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View Postsr360, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:47, said:

The defense continues to rest.
Oh on page 126, I found this
"Identical does indeed mean identical. However, if two players, both solo, are playing the same tanks over a statistically meaningful number of games, have similar DPG and KPG numbers, and yet one has a higher WR than the other, it means that the one with the higher WR has more meaningfully translated his damage into tactical success. He is dealing the damage at times when it counts to targets that count, and resulting in a win for the team.
Lack of a WR parameter would mean that dealing damage that does not lead to a win (such as trash-time damage farming) would be rewarded ahead of high-risk maneuvers that break a game open yet result in slightly lower DPG.
"
This is not a bad statement. But it is not toward my question or even relevant. So it looks like you have failed to answer it.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 19:51.


sr360 #2446 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:55

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HypersonicGlider #2447 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 19:56

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To put my quiz simple, just give you an example:
a + b = 10;
case 1: a = 1, b = 9, so a * b = 9
case 2: a = 5, b = 5, so a * b = 25
By multiplication, the results show huge difference. This means in WN8 system, one has to be good on both FRAG and SPOT/DEF to have a strong WN8 score. For some ppl like tazilon who has unbalanced kills and spot, he will be heavily punished in the new system.
Tazilon is probably an outlier, but for many ppl in between, the multiplication is still not a good way to evaluate their contribution, unless they are good in all ways.
So in summary, WN8 favors more balanced players.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 20:02.


Praetor77 #2448 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 20:59

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View Postbanach, on Oct 10 2013 - 17:41, said:

Then tell me how the multiplication is decided? The model must be chosen by man, and apparently this multiplication is ill-posed.
Yes WN is to measure the account, not a single game, but the account is consist of single games. In another game he may make some kills, but the games he didn't make kills can not be compensated. The WN score he gets is only from the games he made kills.
And you said it is "KIND OF" what you did. From the formula to calculate the corrected FRAG, SPOT and DEF, I guess you probably used low end 1% as reference. But to do normalization for different categories, in WN case, data from high end percentile should be used to better make those factors comparable.

Sigh. Again, the formula is not "man" determined as you say. I paste the rSTATSc in Eureqa qhich is a program that uses genetic (also called evolutionary) iterative algorithms, and finds the mathematical function that best fits the data.

View Postbanach, on Oct 10 2013 - 19:56, said:

To put my quiz simple, just give you an example:
a + b = 10;
case 1: a = 1, b = 9, so a * b = 9
case 2: a = 5, b = 5, so a * b = 25
By multiplication, the results show huge difference. This means in WN8 system, one has to be good on both FRAG and SPOT/DEF to have a strong WN8 score. For some ppl like tazilon who has unbalanced kills and spot, he will be heavily punished in the new system.
Tazilon is probably an outlier, but for many ppl in between, the multiplication is still not a good way to evaluate their contribution, unless they are good in all ways.
So in summary, WN8 favors more balanced players.

Yes, it does favor more balanced players, since that is exactly what a good player is about. I guess you are trying to say that maybe light tank players would be disfavored by the WN8 formula? I can safely say this isn´t so. Players that do well in light tanks (including Tazilon) get a boost in WN8 compared to WN7, and I have checked this isn´t only due to the rSPOTc term. I am working on a slightly altered formula that reduces weight to spots, but is otherwise very similar to the old one, and Tazilon and other LT players still do very well in it.

HypersonicGlider #2449 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 21:16

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View PostPraetor77, on Oct 10 2013 - 20:59, said:

Sigh. Again, the formula is not "man" determined as you say. I paste the rSTATSc in Eureqa qhich is a program that uses genetic (also called evolutionary) iterative algorithms, and finds the mathematical function that best fits the data.



Yes, it does favor more balanced players, since that is exactly what a good player is about. I guess you are trying to say that maybe light tank players would be disfavored by the WN8 formula? I can safely say this isn´t so. Players that do well in light tanks (including Tazilon) get a boost in WN8 compared to WN7, and I have checked this isn´t only due to the rSPOTc term. I am working on a slightly altered formula that reduces weight to spots, but is otherwise very similar to the old one, and Tazilon and other LT players still do very well in it.
If that is the intent, then it is fine. This also explains why the algorithm chooses a multiplication -- probably the target is balanced players have better scores.
Thanks for your reply.

HypersonicGlider #2450 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 21:26

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Name: banach  Praetor77
Performance Rating:    1,750 1,822
Efficiency Rating: 1,542 1,850
WN7 Rating:    1,674 1,954
WN8 Rating (alpha-test): 1,858  2,542
Battles:   22,272  26,512
Win Rate:   58.2%  59.7%
Average damage: 1,212  1,524
Average experience:   614  774
Maximum experience:   3,097  2,995
Avg. base capture:   2.30  2.47
Avg. base defense: 1.65  1.83
Avg. tanks spotted: 0.85  1.57
Average kills:   1.32  1.52
Battles survived:   46.9%  41.8%
Kills to deaths: 2.5  2.6
Average tier: 6.6  7.2
It seems the major difference is the average spotting, which causes significant different WN8 scores.
I guess the reason is I played TD a lot, especially some slow TDs, while you played MT a lot.
Anyway it is good know the factors of WN8, which would help to boost it in the future, like I did to WN7 recently.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 21:29.


HypersonicGlider #2451 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 21:30

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And below is the recent 1000 games after I found the trick of WN7 and played accordingly
Name:  banach  Praetor77
Performance Rating:  2,167  1,983
Efficiency Rating:  1,940  1,730
WN7 Rating:  2,408  2,164
WN8 Rating (alpha-test):  2,812  2,706
Battles:  890  1,288
Win Rate:  68.4%  61.4%
Average damage:  1,973  1,389
Average experience:  1,004  850
Avg. base capture:  0.76  0.79
Avg. base defense:  2.26  1.64
Avg. tanks spotted:  0.87  1.97
Average kills:  2.07  1.75
Battles survived:  59.1%  44.0%
Kills to deaths:  5.1  3.1
Average tier:  7.3  6.4
Next thing to do for WN8 is to boost the spotting ...

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 21:33.


AMartin223 #2452 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 21:37

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View Postbanach, on Oct 10 2013 - 21:26, said:

Name: banach  Praetor77
Performance Rating:    1,750 1,822
Efficiency Rating: 1,542 1,850
WN7 Rating:    1,674 1,954
WN8 Rating (alpha-test): 1,858  2,542
Battles:   22,272  26,512
Win Rate:   58.2%  59.7%
Average damage: 1,212  1,524
Average experience:   614  774
Maximum experience:   3,097  2,995
Avg. base capture:   2.30  2.47
Avg. base defense: 1.65  1.83
Avg. tanks spotted: 0.85  1.57
Average kills:   1.32  1.52
Battles survived:   46.9%  41.8%
Kills to deaths: 2.5  2.6
Average tier: 6.6  7.2
It seems the major difference is the average spotting, which causes significant different WN8 scores.
I guess the reason is I played TD a lot, especially some slow TDs, while you played MT a lot.
Anyway it is good know the factors of WN8, which would help to boost it in the future, like I did to WN7 recently.

He has better stats than you in every category other than survival (lol) and max xp (lol).  His WN7 is also higher than yours.  Your relative rank is ~the same in WN8, though he actually pulls a little more ahead of you b.c yes, he also can scout, he doesn't just snipe from base.

HypersonicGlider #2453 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 21:45

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View PostAMartin223, on Oct 10 2013 - 21:37, said:

He has better stats than you in every category other than survival (lol) and max xp (lol).  His WN7 is also higher than yours.  Your relative rank is ~the same in WN8, though he actually pulls a little more ahead of you b.c yes, he also can scout, he doesn't just snipe from base.
Overall he is better than me. No doubt.
Just check my next post for recent 1000 games.
I never snipe at base, don't make me wrong. In the past I just never tried to turn my gun to low HP tanks -- I just damage the tank which I think has the biggest threat to the team. I switched to kill low hp tanks from about a month ago and you can see the big change.
I have much less spotting cuz I never tried to rush in front of all other tanks to get the spotting counts. And btw, TDs are harder to spot no matter whether you snipe at your base or enemies base cuz it only counts once. This is the play-style (or even some tanks) that gets punished. I am ok with it cuz it is not that hard to boost spotting in the future.
P.S., spotting doesn't always mean scout in this game. Tazilon's scout is real scout since it has damage upon spotting. The spot we get now is the first detection, which doesn't necessarily mean useful scout. If WG can release this data, it then can definitely better complete WN system.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 21:58.


Praetor77 #2454 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 22:05

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Banach that doesn´t say much. Lately I have been grinding new russian meds (horrible), and playing tier 5 tanks with 75% crews. My last 1000 compared to my last 2000 is crap. Anyways, who cares?

New WN8 formula will have much less weight on spot as I explained above.

HypersonicGlider #2455 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 22:12

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View PostPraetor77, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:05, said:

Banach that doesn´t say much. Lately I have been grinding new russian meds (horrible), and playing tier 5 tanks with 75% crews. My last 1000 compared to my last 2000 is crap. Anyways, who cares?
New WN8 formula will have much less weight on spot as I explained above.
I totally agree with you. I would not play tanks by the metrics invented by you :)
I have never been stopping grinding new tanks as well, and I never use gold to research modules and train crews (not mean I can't afford it but just don't like the idea). So often I get low WN score, like yesterday my stock Su-100m almost gave me a heartbreak.
What I meant by saying "boost the score" is to improve my skills based on the perspective of the majority of the players. Like from the discussion of WN8 I knew a good player (at least in your eyes) is balanced, in addition to damage and kills. WN is a good system, I like to learn from it, not to screw it.

Edited by banach, Oct 10 2013 - 22:16.


VaporGator #2456 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 22:15

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View PostPraetor77, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:05, said:

Banach that doesn´t say much. Lately I have been grinding new russian meds (horrible), and playing tier 5 tanks with 75% crews. My last 1000 compared to my last 2000 is crap. Anyways, who cares?

New WN8 formula will have much less weight on spot as I explained above.

Look at all that red on your signature... you suck Praetor!!!   :teethhappy:

HypersonicGlider #2457 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 22:18

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View PostVaporGator, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:15, said:

Look at all that red on your signature... you suck Praetor!!!   :teethhappy:
Let's platoon with him and screw him more LOL

Rosh87 #2458 Posted Oct 10 2013 - 22:33

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View PostPraetor77, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:05, said:

Banach that doesn´t say much. Lately I have been grinding new russian meds (horrible), and playing tier 5 tanks with 75% crews. My last 1000 compared to my last 2000 is crap. Anyways, who cares?

New WN8 formula will have much less weight on spot as I explained above.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to look at all this again Prae.  Through my various posts on this (and others who chimed in with opinion / example / etc) - (and I know Kilgor came out a bit gruff in trying to state his own concerns) // I have appreciated your (and the other members of the Wn Team) willingness to talk and analyze the formula again - in an attempt to refine it, etc - so that when WN-8 finally does come out - everyone can feel it has an overall air of validity / reason / logic behind its ratings.

I know you spend a lot of time on this (math / spreadsheets / eureka / etc) - and it's probably sometimes a thankless task (in some respects), but most of us do actually appreciate your efforts.   :-)

Praetor77 #2459 Posted Oct 11 2013 - 01:37

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View PostRosh87, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:33, said:

Thanks a lot for taking the time to look at all this again Prae.  Through my various posts on this (and others who chimed in with opinion / example / etc) - (and I know Kilgor came out a bit gruff in trying to state his own concerns) // I have appreciated your (and the other members of the Wn Team) willingness to talk and analyze the formula again - in an attempt to refine it, etc - so that when WN-8 finally does come out - everyone can feel it has an overall air of validity / reason / logic behind its ratings.

I know you spend a lot of time on this (math / spreadsheets / eureka / etc) - and it's probably sometimes a thankless task (in some respects), but most of us do actually appreciate your efforts.   :-)
o7

Praetor77 #2460 Posted Oct 11 2013 - 01:46

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View PostVaporGator, on Oct 10 2013 - 22:15, said:

Look at all that red on your signature... you suck Praetor!!!   :teethhappy:
I know...  :confused:
I´ve also been having lag spikes, packet loss, 300ms ping, you name it. Thats why I have been playing less tanks and doing more WN8! :)

Edited by Praetor77, Oct 11 2013 - 01:55.






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