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The IS-4's weak point


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ediko #41 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 13:52

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View PostEchelonIII, on Dec 06 2010 - 06:44, said:

The Maus has a gaping hole in its armor between the tracks...

The IS-4 "nerf" in the rear armor is, as I've said, a mickey mouse nerf. What we'll have with this patch is that the IS-4 will now have a well-armored front (as you've said), but there's been no change to the side armor, it'll still have invincible side armor (as you've said), while the nerf to the rear armor can't be taken advantage of anyway. In a duel between two tanks, if one gets on the rear of the other, the tank getting shot in the rear is screwed in any case, it doesn't matter if it's got 10mm, 50mm, 100mm, or 120mm of armor. So, what this patch essentially does is to fix the IS-4's one weakness, and add in a weakness that can't really be exploited in a practical sense.

Also, an IS-3 outflanking an IS-7? I'm sorry, but I'll really have to call bullshit on that one, an IS-3 would outmaneuver a Maus with ease, but I'd highly doubt that it can outmaneuver an IS-7
Alright but don't you think that it is a bit stupid that a tank's weak-spot is it's front? The most heavily armored part on any tank is also the weakest on the is4. Look at the vk4502 front, it's almost impenetrable to my bl9 no matter where I shoot with it. It's front is very well armored but for some reason I see the mini mouse drivers going backwards all the time exposing their tanks weakest armor  :blink:

You say that a tank is crewed when I see it's rear? Nope the is4 is not screwed, unless I'm on some hill behind him and can get a good shot, he will ding. That doesn't make sense. Any other tank will be dead by then but somehow every time I face an Is4 I don't even bother to get behind it since it's front doesn't bounce, ever, unless I hit the turret.  Right now it really does look grim for it's counterparts, especially the slow and clumsy vk4502 but we don't really know yet, maybe it wont be that bad and it will bounce sometimes and not absorb every hit. I mean I can't take down the mini mouse from the front either but since its so slow I can find some better place to shoot at it. Anyway I say let's just wait and see. Right now it really does look like they make the best tank even better but maybe it wont be as bad, or might just make any other t9~10 useless.

And whats so hard to believe in my is3 outmaneuvering an is7? That thing is pretty much a train, it can drive fast but it can't really turn. Besides that was just me being lucky since he focused on shooting our Maus while I got behind him and set him on fire with the 3rd shot, 2 more where needed however since he extinguished it momentarily.

r34ch #42 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 14:07

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View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 13:52, said:

Alright but don't you think that it is a bit stupid that a tank's weak-spot is it's front?
It is stupid and I'm glad they're fixing it but the thing you're missing is that the equivalent GER T9/10 heavies are simply no match for the RUS T9/10 heavies because of the huge amount of flaws or disadvantages the game has forced upon them.

If I was a KT and struggled to kill an IS-4 I wouldn't mind so long as my VK45 teammate could deal with him. Realistically though it very rarely happens and with the buffs the IS4 is getting and the almost 'for show' buffs the equivalent GER heavies are getting, it'll just get worse which is why people are so annoyed.


Also your point about outmanoeuvring an IS-7 is kind of moot since it has nothing to do with the tank but the driver. When I get my IS-7 after the softwipe I'm gonna drive it like my KT and not like those idiots who charge in and get de-tracked and killed seconds later. If in a KT I don't let IS-3s get  within attacking range, do you think I'll act differently when I have GOD-MODE-ENABLED sloped turret armour and a sick as hell gun?

ediko #43 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 14:44

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View Postr34ch, on Dec 06 2010 - 14:07, said:

It is stupid and I'm glad they're fixing it but the thing you're missing is that the equivalent GER T9/10 heavies are simply no match for the RUS T9/10 heavies because of the huge amount of flaws or disadvantages the game has forced upon them.

If I was a KT and struggled to kill an IS-4 I wouldn't mind so long as my VK45 teammate could deal with him. Realistically though it very rarely happens and with the buffs the IS4 is getting and the almost 'for show' buffs the equivalent GER heavies are getting, it'll just get worse which is why people are so annoyed.


Also your point about outmanoeuvring an IS-7 is kind of moot since it has nothing to do with the tank but the driver. When I get my IS-7 after the softwipe I'm gonna drive it like my KT and not like those idiots who charge in and get de-tracked and killed seconds later. If in a KT I don't let IS-3s get  within attacking range, do you think I'll act differently when I have GOD-MODE-ENABLED sloped turret armour and a sick as hell gun?
Lets start with my moot point on the is7 and maybe I will somehow get back to the topic at hand  :rolleyes:

Getting behind him is exploiting his weakness. Since his front armor is useless to shoot at I try my best to get behind him. Makes sense right? If the driver is skilled he will kill me easily before I even get close, but the same applies to every tank really. A tiger can kill my is3 if I act stupid (and in fact it does happen sometimes). For some reason though I always see vk4502 peeking out of corners backwards... why? Sure it has its gun in the back but seriously putting you're weakest part of then tank out is just asking to be shot on sight. Why not get the front out have it bounce everything(since it will, that front wasn't penetrated once by my bl9, maybe I don't know the weak-spots but after 6 bounces I give up and charge it's sides) and move to shoot.

IS4 is slow, the vk4502 is even slower however, but its armor is better when used properly. Whats the problem then? All the vk4502 driver needs is skill to take down an IS4, and an is4 needs skill to not get destroyed before even coming close since it's view range is bad and the speed isn't as good as is3's either.

I will get myself an is4 after the wipe and then I will manually grind my way up to the German heavies. Maybe then I will start complaining as almost everyone around here does. From my own experience in fighting all the tanks in-game I think the biggest advantage Russian tanks have is the shape. When you shoot a German tank it pretty much doesn't matter where you shoot since they're so big you will hit something. When engaging Soviet ones you have to think and aim well if you want that hit to happen. Anyway, there is no point in all this blabbering I do here since we all have different opinions and I doubt we can change them much. We will just have to wait and see. Lets just hope it wont become as invincible as some guys want us to think here.

Sweetheart #44 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 15:45

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View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 14:44, said:

Lets start with my moot point on the is7 and maybe I will somehow get back to the topic at hand  :rolleyes:

Getting behind him is exploiting his weakness. Since his front armor is useless to shoot at I try my best to get behind him. Makes sense right? If the driver is skilled he will kill me easily before I even get close, but the same applies to every tank really. A tiger can kill my is3 if I act stupid (and in fact it does happen sometimes). For some reason though I always see vk4502 peeking out of corners backwards... why? Sure it has its gun in the back but seriously putting you're weakest part of then tank out is just asking to be shot on sight. Why not get the front out have it bounce everything(since it will, that front wasn't penetrated once by my bl9, maybe I don't know the weak-spots but after 6 bounces I give up and charge it's sides) and move to shoot.

IS4 is slow, the vk4502 is even slower however, but its armor is better when used properly. Whats the problem then? All the vk4502 driver needs is skill to take down an IS4, and an is4 needs skill to not get destroyed before even coming close since it's view range is bad and the speed isn't as good as is3's either.

I will get myself an is4 after the wipe and then I will manually grind my way up to the German heavies. Maybe then I will start complaining as almost everyone around here does. From my own experience in fighting all the tanks in-game I think the biggest advantage Russian tanks have is the shape. When you shoot a German tank it pretty much doesn't matter where you shoot since they're so big you will hit something. When engaging Soviet ones you have to think and aim well if you want that hit to happen. Anyway, there is no point in all this blabbering I do here since we all have different opinions and I doubt we can change them much. We will just have to wait and see. Lets just hope it wont become as invincible as some guys want us to think here.

Shoot at the lower front hull on the VK4502, everything penetrates (150mm+ pen). The upper front can only be penetrated by T10 guns (T8+ TDs and T9+ heavies). Facehugging the VK4502 is also very effective, since everything can penetrate the gun mantlet.

EchelonIII #45 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 18:33

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View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 13:52, said:

Alright but don't you think that it is a bit stupid that a tank's weak-spot is it's front? The most heavily armored part on any tank is also the weakest on the is4. Look at the vk4502 front, it's almost impenetrable to my bl9 no matter where I shoot with it. It's front is very well armored but for some reason I see the mini mouse drivers going backwards all the time exposing their tanks weakest armor  

True, but don't you think it's even stupider that a tank doesn't have a weak spot at all? What they've done is to remove the IS-4's one weak spot, and give it a pseudo-weak spot which can't be exploited.

View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 13:52, said:

You say that a tank is crewed when I see it's rear? Nope the is4 is not screwed, unless I'm on some hill behind him and can get a good shot, he will ding. That doesn't make sense. Any other tank will be dead by then but somehow every time I face an Is4 I don't even bother to get behind it since it's front doesn't bounce, ever, unless I hit the turret.  Right now it really does look grim for it's counterparts, especially the slow and clumsy vk4502 but we don't really know yet, maybe it wont be that bad and it will bounce sometimes and not absorb every hit.

And now the solution is to buff the front armor and give a pseudo-nerf to the rear armor which can't really be exploited by any credible opposition (I'd highly doubt that in a one on one fight, a King Tiger or 4502 is going to be able to maneuver behind the IS-4?).

It's a nerf, but a nerf only works when the aspect which has been nerfed can be exploited, which isn't likely to happen.

View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 13:52, said:

I mean I can't take down the mini mouse from the front either but since its so slow I can find some better place to shoot at it. Anyway I say let's just wait and see. Right now it really does look like they make the best tank even better but maybe it wont be as bad, or might just make any other t9~10 useless.

Well the turret has 120mm armor at the mantle (will be raised to 160 and 180mm for stock and upgraded turrets post-update), the sides of the turret are 160 flat, add in the fact that it turns like a slug... and that's not even counting in the 150mm of the lower hull...

Now, consider that the difference in the effective thickness of the IS-4 frontal hull armor and the 4502 hull armor is TEN mm... and now, further consider that they are still going to buff the IS-4's frontal... Let' me put it in a very dramatic way to illustrate how ridiculous it is: THE WEAKPOINT OF AN IS-4 IS MORE HEAVILY ARMORED THAN THE FRONTAL OF A T34's STRONGPOINT

View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 13:52, said:

And whats so hard to believe in my is3 outmaneuvering an is7? That thing is pretty much a train, it can drive fast but it can't really turn. Besides that was just me being lucky since he focused on shooting our Maus while I got behind him and set him on fire with the 3rd shot, 2 more where needed however since he extinguished it momentarily.


So your example is, simply put, based on two tanks ganging up on one, one guy fires and the other one flanks, while the defender is unable to turn his front armor to face both threats, of course you'd be able to outmaneuver him! That's the whole damn point of a numerical advantage!

ediko #46 Posted Dec 06 2010 - 19:38

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View PostEchelonIII, on Dec 06 2010 - 18:33, said:

True, but don't you think it's even stupider that a tank doesn't have a weak spot at all? What they've done is to remove the IS-4's one weak spot, and give it a pseudo-weak spot which can't be exploited.



And now the solution is to buff the front armor and give a pseudo-nerf to the rear armor which can't really be exploited by any credible opposition (I'd highly doubt that in a one on one fight, a King Tiger or 4502 is going to be able to maneuver behind the IS-4?).

It's a nerf, but a nerf only works when the aspect which has been nerfed can be exploited, which isn't likely to happen.



Well the turret has 120mm armor at the mantle (will be raised to 160 and 180mm for stock and upgraded turrets post-update), the sides of the turret are 160 flat, add in the fact that it turns like a slug... and that's not even counting in the 150mm of the lower hull...

Now, consider that the difference in the effective thickness of the IS-4 frontal hull armor and the 4502 hull armor is TEN mm... and now, further consider that they are still going to buff the IS-4's frontal... Let' me put it in a very dramatic way to illustrate how ridiculous it is: THE WEAKPOINT OF AN IS-4 IS MORE HEAVILY ARMORED THAN THE FRONTAL OF A T34's STRONGPOINT



So your example is, simply put, based on two tanks ganging up on one, one guy fires and the other one flanks, while the defender is unable to turn his front armor to face both threats, of course you'd be able to outmaneuver him! That's the whole damn point of a numerical advantage!

No weak spot at all? What about the lower glacis plate which can be penetrated as easily as the is7's one? Oh wait you don't even need to shoot at it since you will still penetrate him by just shooting at the front. And no, in my opinion it is even more stupid that the strongest part of any tank is in fact the weakest.


And how do you know that vk4502 won't penetrate it's front after the patch? Have you tried it already? Right now there is no point in going behind is4 since it can still die in a face to face slugfest. And IS4 isn't as fast as you make it out to be, in-game it is much like the KV, maybe not as dramatic but it's really not as maneuverable or fast as any other IS. And why should the KT fight one on one with an is4? I don't go hunt the vk4502 alone since I will die every time unless the driver is AFK, and even then it's not that quick to dispatch him.

Yes the T34 is badly armored, but it's not because of is4's OP'ness but rather because the t34 is very fragile. Unless of course you want DEVS to nerf the is4 and vk4502 so that a KV can kill them.

And what didn't you like about my example? The fact that me and my team actually used tactics in a 15 vs 15 battle? Or is this game supposed to be a duel between 2 tanks. Hey all 28 tanks wait till 2 best tanks fight each other so that the best can then kill the looser team on his own. Chill out mate. It's the whole point of the game. You don't go one on one ever (that's for you since you seem to be enjoying the bold text). If you go somewhere alone (except scouting of course) you already waste you're tank. And besides I already said it was pure luck, no need to mock me about it. This is a team game after all.

VGA #47 Posted Dec 07 2010 - 03:07

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View PostSadPanda, on Dec 05 2010 - 10:46, said:

is-4 armor plate on the back will be thinned from 120mm to 100mm, so all you need to do is drive the 300m the is-4 spots you and get around to its back and get 2 to 10 shots off depending on what tank/gun combo you got without getting hit more than 2-4 times by the is-4 and you have won ;)
Sounds kinda hard, maybe I'll just get myself an IS-4 and face it on equal terms, it's the only way to get balance in this game, on those tiers, after the patch.

Mike_Hammer #48 Posted Dec 07 2010 - 17:24

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View PostEchelonIII, on Dec 06 2010 - 18:33, said:

True, but don't you think it's even stupider that a tank doesn't have a weak spot at all? What they've done is to remove the IS-4's one weak spot, and give it a pseudo-weak spot which can't be exploited.

How do you know that?
No, let me rephrase, why do you think this weak spot will be "removed"? Or that it can't be exploited after patch?
Also it's "more stupid".

Currently Tier 7's (Tiger/T29) can penetrate IS-4 all over the front, upper plate, lower plate, frontal edge, it don't matter, no need to look for driver slit. Not so on VK45.

Ahh, I see now, looking at your profile you don't have a single heavy tank in your garage, unless you count Tier 5. Yet you sure have loud opinions about Tier 9's. Speaks volumes about you.


br
Owner of VK45, still with the stock gun, who doesn't share this silly belief that Soviet tanks (not Russian) are so OP. Even at Tier 9.

EchelonIII #49 Posted Dec 08 2010 - 09:09

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View Postediko, on Dec 06 2010 - 19:38, said:

And  what didn't you like about my example? The fact that me and my team  actually used tactics in a 15 vs 15 battle? Or is this game supposed to  be a duel between 2 tanks. Hey all 28 tanks wait till 2 best tanks fight  each other so that the best can then kill the looser team on his own.  Chill out mate. It's the whole point of the game. You don't go one on  one ever (that's for you since you seem to be enjoying the bold  text). If you go somewhere alone (except scouting of course) you already  waste you're tank. And besides I already said it was pure luck, no need  to mock me about it. This is a team game after all.

Well, your example is based on a situation in which you possessed an advantage already. By your logic, I could argue that a Maus could outmaneuver an IS-7 as long as I've got an allied Tiger 2 pinning it down in the front, I could even say that a Tiger could outmaneuver a Panther if the Panther was busy fighting a IS-3. Also, your example, as I've you've just admitted, is pure luck, it thus holds no value in an argument, yet at the same time you try to use it as proof that the IS-3 can outmaneuver an IS-7

View PostMike_Hammer, on Dec 07 2010 - 17:24, said:

How do you know that?
No, let me rephrase, why do you think this weak spot will be "removed"? Or that it can't be exploited after patch?
Also it's "more stupid".

Currently Tier 7's (Tiger/T29) can penetrate IS-4 all over the front, upper plate, lower plate, frontal edge, it don't matter, no need to look for driver slit. Not so on VK45.

Ahh, I see now, looking at your profile you don't have a single heavy tank in your garage, unless you count Tier 5. Yet you sure have loud opinions about Tier 9's. Speaks volumes about you.

br
Owner of VK45, still with the stock gun, who doesn't share this silly belief that Soviet tanks (not Russian) are so OP. Even at Tier 9.

The fact that you try to attack my english (unsuccessfully) speaks even more volumes about you. Take a hint and go Google the word.

Currently Tier 7s can also penetrate VK45 all over the front as well, the gun mantlet is 120mm, the area between the tracks too is 150mm, as for American heavies, i'm not even going to get into their armor (or lack thereof).

The IS-4 currently possesses 10mm less effective frontal armor than the VK45. The devs are about to give it an effective 70mm increase in thickness. The buff is completely out of proportion, the official reason given, of course, is a historical armor profile presented by the developers (see main patch thread).

I also see you completely fail to consider that I play a Ferdinand, which often faces off against VK 45s and IS-4... guess which one's tougher to kill! (hint: it's not the VK45)

RearE #50 Posted Dec 08 2010 - 11:39

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View PostEchelonIII, on Dec 08 2010 - 09:09, said:

Currently Tier 7s can also penetrate VK45 all over the front as well...

That's not true at all.
Asky66 has made some nice penetration videos, where IS-4 is penetrated by the long 88 at the frontal armor plate. Not the hatch, not the lower part where every single tank in WoT can be penetrated, but the supposedly strongest part of this "imba" tank hull, upper front armor plate, I believe it's called glacis.

You cannot do the same on Ausf B. Prove me wrong with a vid if you can, but I don't think you can.

You can penetrate both tanks in the gun with lower penetration guns, though granted the soft area in the turret is smaller on IS-4.

Now IS-4 has other advantages, but to claim Ausf B is not better protected from the front is disingenuous.

VGA #51 Posted Dec 08 2010 - 12:01

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Were those tests in the newer (russian) version, after IS-4 got buffed ?

RearE #52 Posted Dec 08 2010 - 14:34

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Do Russians even have the patch in question yet?

What this video of easily penetrated IS-4 frontal armor in its strongest sections shows, is that a buff to it is not unreasonable, despite what some people like to claim.

Now what I would like to see, is some piece of performance data that would show Ausf B performing worse then IS-4 on average. People who claim IS-4 is so overpowered should produce this, but I have seen nothing so far.

Sweetheart #53 Posted Dec 09 2010 - 01:33

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View PostRearE, on Dec 08 2010 - 14:34, said:

Do Russians even have the patch in question yet?

What this video of easily penetrated IS-4 frontal armor in its strongest sections shows, is that a buff to it is not unreasonable, despite what some people like to claim.

Now what I would like to see, is some piece of performance data that would show Ausf B performing worse then IS-4 on average. People who claim IS-4 is so overpowered should produce this, but I have seen nothing so far.

What the videos also prove is that if you angle the IS4 it becomes impenetrable for T7 tanks (except for the drivers window weakspot, I believe). This angling cannot be done on the VK45 to the same effect due to the thin side armor. Thank god most IS4 players don't angle it.

RearE #54 Posted Dec 09 2010 - 16:22

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View PostSweetheart, on Dec 09 2010 - 01:33, said:

What the videos also prove is that if you angle the IS4 it becomes impenetrable for T7 tanks (except for the drivers window weakspot, I believe). This angling cannot be done on the VK45 to the same effect due to the thin side armor. Thank god most IS4 players don't angle it.

Huh?

No it doesn't. If you angle it so much, you can just shoot the side instead. Sure you run the risk of detracking for no damage, but unless tthe RNG hates you, or you aim low, it'll pen just fine.

Sweetheart #55 Posted Dec 09 2010 - 16:36

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View PostRearE, on Dec 09 2010 - 16:22, said:

Huh?

No it doesn't. If you angle it so much, you can just shoot the side instead. Sure you run the risk of detracking for no damage, but unless tthe RNG hates you, or you aim low, it'll pen just fine.

Must be a different video then. The video I've seen is of a panther shooting at a IS4 with the long 88 at 100 meters. Penetrates most shots at the upper glacis when not angled, and none when angled (about an angle of 40 or so). Also, the sides are 160mm, even harder to penetrate than the front at that angle.

EchelonIII #56 Posted Dec 10 2010 - 05:29

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View PostRearE, on Dec 09 2010 - 16:22, said:

Huh?

No it doesn't. If you angle it so much, you can just shoot the side instead. Sure you run the risk of detracking for no damage, but unless tthe RNG hates you, or you aim low, it'll pen just fine.

If you angle it, the side armor exposed is also angled, and since it's already been agreed that the IS-4 side armor is much too thick...

View Postediko, on Dec 05 2010 - 18:30, said:

It  just doesn't make sense that a tank has such an easily penetrable front  and such invincible sides and rear. Now it will be more like every tank  we have in the game, meaning well armored front and vulnerable from all  other directions. When I see an is7 in my is3 I race at full speed and  get behind it 4~5 shots and his dead. No point to even shoot its front.  When I see an is4 however I always aim for the frontal armor since it's  the weakest


Toten #57 Posted Dec 22 2010 - 02:23

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View PostMike_Hammer, on Dec 07 2010 - 17:24, said:

How do you know that?
No, let me rephrase, why do you think this weak spot will be "removed"? Or that it can't be exploited after patch?
Also it's "more stupid".

Currently Tier 7's (Tiger/T29) can penetrate IS-4 all over the front, upper plate, lower plate, frontal edge, it don't matter, no need to look for driver slit. Not so on VK45.

Ahh, I see now, looking at your profile you don't have a single heavy tank in your garage, unless you count Tier 5. Yet you sure have loud opinions about Tier 9's. Speaks volumes about you.


br
Owner of VK45, still with the stock gun, who doesn't share this silly belief that Soviet tanks (not Russian) are so OP. Even at Tier 9.
Agreed, i have is4 with tracks and turret and default bl9,and i hate it,front plate is a screen door,VK45's own me if i can't side shoot them,did anyone actually grind this albatross to the 130mm,or did they get them after a wipe,mayan calendar will over before i get the big gun.
Stock this tank is highly overated,at this point i prefer my is3.....

Warrior23 #58 Posted Dec 22 2010 - 05:33

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View PostToten, on Dec 22 2010 - 02:23, said:

Agreed, i have is4 with tracks and turret and default bl9,and i hate it,front plate is a screen door,VK45's own me if i can't side shoot them,did anyone actually grind this albatross to the 130mm,or did they get them after a wipe,mayan calendar will over before i get the big gun.
Stock this tank is highly overated,at this point i prefer my is3.....

I thought the same thing about the IS4 until I got the 130. Once you get the 130 you will be able to handle the VK's a little easier, but I would still rather face another IS4 than an upgraded VK.  You still have to be very cautious about the front, and make sure you angle it.  

I also prefer my IS3 and I am glad I kept it.

Lupusceleri #59 Posted Dec 22 2010 - 10:45

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View PostToten, on Dec 22 2010 - 02:23, said:

Agreed, i have is4 with tracks and turret and default bl9,and i hate it,front plate is a screen door,VK45's own me if i can't side shoot them,did anyone actually grind this albatross to the 130mm,or did they get them after a wipe,mayan calendar will over before i get the big gun.
Stock this tank is highly overated,at this point i prefer my is3.....
Yeah, 130mm makes life a lot better.

What's also a changer is the upgraded turret. Much more survival.

PS: I did grind the IS-4 from the start to the end.

Stormscion #60 Posted Dec 22 2010 - 19:58

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View PostWarrior23, on Dec 22 2010 - 05:33, said:

I thought the same thing about the IS4 until I got the 130. Once you get the 130 you will be able to handle the VK's a little easier, but I would still rather face another IS4 than an upgraded VK.  You still have to be very cautious about the front, and make sure you angle it.  

I also prefer my IS3 and I am glad I kept it.

That is pretty much i am talking about ... i prefere to face head on IS4 anyday then other 4502 since it has far superior front armor and bouncing 128mm or 130mm shots with such slow reload is just painful experience... on the other hand 4502 on side is probably going to die even faster then IS4 since it doesnt bounce anything.
My brother farmed IS4 normal way with no free xp ( only for tracks i think ) and it was really like with almost any tank just more expansive ,  painful to watch but after upgrading to elite IS4 becomes great tank. Same goes for 4502.




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