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Historical Battles Mode


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VRMoran #1 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:37

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After MUCH thought, I have wondered about the possibility of implementing a historical battle style game mode, perhaps even as a special event only kind of thing or even as a full optional mode.

A few things would differentiate this game mode, starting with:

Change in the Damage/Kill Mechanic
Many players have discussed the idea of a "hardcore" game mode being implemented into this game, and this seems like a good opportunity.

One of the oldest ideas I've seen is to implement it where a tank is only destroyed if all its modules are knocked out, but I personally dislike this one. What I imagine instead is that yes, module damage should be more severe than it is in the current game. If you find yourself tracked, it isn't just going to repair itself....and a fire isn't something you could easily recover from.

Instead, what I imagine is the idea that your tank's durability is MASSIVELY reduced. Now, instead of doing HP damage (which isn't very realistic), a specific gun might have a damage ticket. Certain tanks have a certain number of damage tickets, such that some lighter weapons may need 2 or 3 hits to kill and a larger one might only need 1 penetration.

The durability of a tank may depend on the scenario. Let's say you were doing a "Fall of France" scenario. The British 2 Pounder may need 2 hits on a Panzer III to secure a kill, while the 75mm KwK 37 L/34 on a Panzer IV could knock out most tanks in a single hit.

This does lead to two questions of course. The first is "what about HE damage?" To that.....I'm not sure yet.

The second question is "well, how would you balance certain vehicles?"

How Tanks Are Handled
This is the really central idea to this game mode.

You see, the way I see this one thing that affects the realism of certain vehicles is that they aren't exactly historical accurate with regards to what they're armed with. Take the Ferdinand. It wasn't ever armed with anything bigger than an 88mm....but gets a 12.8cm gun. Or the Tiger tank getting the 88mm L/71.

In game these decisions make sense. They give the tanks a rough approximation of their actual performance relative to their tier.

HOWEVER, what if tiers weren't the primary concern? The Ferdinand wasn't fighting things like the IS-3, the Pershing, or the KV-4: its primary opposition would have been things like the T-34. At that point, the 88mm gun makes more sense, and is roughly as powerful against something like the T-34 is as the 12.8cm is against a Tier 8 tank.

This also has an interesting application that tanks that were historically designed to be powerful due to their armor (like the B1) actually can use it effectively.

Here's an example of where limiting tanks to historical specs can be balanced, using the Tiger-H as an example. The scenario would be an Eastern Front, mid-War:

In historical configuration you'll get an 88mm KwK36 L/56. This gives it fairly good accuracy and penetration when you consider what it will be fighting: the T-34, the Su-85 and Su-100, KV-1, KV-2, and BT-7. Furthermore, the armor of the Tiger tank would be superior to anything the Soviets could field, being able to deflect shots easily from all except the KV-2 and the Su-100 (remember, armaments would be historical, so the Su-85 would have the first 85mm with 120mm of penetration, and the KV-1 would have a 76mm gun.

To balance things out, the Tiger would get the Maybach HL 230 P45 engine (not the top one), limiting its power to weight ratio. Also, some other stats might have to be balanced around, such as the turret traverse speed.

Obviously, this may sound a little overpowered, which brings up the final bit of my idea:

Scenarios
I have a couple of scenario ideas, one of which I've come quite a ways towards solidifying (I'll give an example of it farther down).

How this would work is that you have two teams, with certain tanks allowed on each side. Tanks have a set configuration for the specific scenario, AND some tanks have a unit cap. Such tanks would be things like the Ferdinand for a Battle of Kursk Scenario. The reason for this is that relative to what it's fighting it's VERY powerful, and that it really was in limited numbers for that battle. This is an example of balance built into the game, where we don't want certain vehicle dominating the game.

Also, because certain tanks underwent upgrades throughout the war you might find in one scenario a tank feels "gimped". An example would be the Panzer IV; it was present during the Battle of France, but not with the same gun we see at the end of the war, and with a different turret. The British tanks are a great example of this.

Scenarios would also take place on maps that best typify their purpose. A Fall of Berlin scenario might happen on maps like Sigfried Line or Himmelsdorf rather than Serene Coast.

Most interesting is that certain scenarios may not have to be strictly "Germany" vs "Everyone Else".....can you say Cold War, anyone?  :Smile_Default:

Examples

Perhaps the best way to get this all across is to make a few examples, and give my rationale for why things are the way they are:

Fall of France
Spoiler

I shall finish this later, with a few more scenarios to include and more elaboration on the one I've already got, but I can't finish it right now. Read over it and tell me what you think. Some things can be refined here and there, but this is my rough idea of what I'm thinking of.

tank0628 #2 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:38

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Axis should get the Panther Turm.

Unternehmen #3 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:40

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well um that is wiered but intruging

ars3nic3 #4 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:42

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Sounds good to me

SilverCams #5 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:44

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Very interesting.

Andrewb610 #6 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:50

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Tiger did have the L/71 8.8cm gun

Mantisman630 #7 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:52

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View Postandrewb610, on Dec 06 2012 - 00:50, said:

Tiger did have the L/71 8.8cm gun

No, the Tiger I only had the L/56 88mm....the Tiger II had the L/71 88mm.

Legiondude #8 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:53

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View Postandrewb610, on Dec 06 2012 - 00:50, said:

Tiger did have the L/71 8.8cm gun
According to the Chieftain's Tiger article it was planned to eventually get the gun, but only two Tiger I's received them before they were removed due to war shortages

VRMoran #9 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 00:57

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View PostLegiondude, on Dec 06 2012 - 00:53, said:

According to the Chieftain's Tiger article it was planned to eventually get the gun, but only two Tiger I's received them before they were removed due to war shortages

True, and the important thing is what was actually fielded at the time of whatever scenario is mentioned. So while you get a lot of interesting possible designs (like the Chaffee with the mutant turret), they wouldn't be covered in these kinds of things.

Though bravo to WG for touching on some of the more obscure prototypes and experiments that were done to certain vehicles, like the Panzer IV with the Vader turret and the 75mm L/70

Mantisman630 #10 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:00

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Again, the issue is balancing out the tanks with the upgrades/weapons they actually had.

Andrewb610 #11 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:02

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View PostLegiondude, on Dec 06 2012 - 00:53, said:

According to the Chieftain's Tiger article it was planned to eventually get the gun, but only two Tiger I's received them before they were removed due to war shortages

So I wasn't COMPLETELY wrong, Friends of mine who are retired US Military tell me the Tiger had the L/71 Gun and that the Chieftain was wrong but Im not getting into that argument because I have no proof to argue either side

Edited by andrewb610, Dec 06 2012 - 01:02.


Cutthroatlemur #12 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:02

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I really like where you are going with this, it would add a nice realistic element to the game and a pseudo hardcore mode.  Very interesting.  +1

missile742 #13 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:03

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I like this idea from the perspective of limiting historical battles to tanks and arty that actually faced each other in the field.  Limiting the individual vehicles to armaments and modules that were available/in the field at the time and not only found in blueprints would also add to the realism factor. Wasnt that the dream of a lot of us, taking your shiny new Tiger out and smashing whole battalions of Shermans and T-34s like the Germans did in WWII?  Instead, we to find ourselves  in a Tier 8 battle fighting Korean War vintage tanks. Not so sure about your ideas on adjusting damage.

Fishrokk #14 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:10

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So...a player would enter a Historical Battle without any tanks from the garage.

Player may get an option of which team and/or equipment they want to drive based on the scenario's limits/predeterminations.  (MM simply selects the next scenario, fills each team with players from the queue and launches the game.)

Outcome of battle does not affect garage stats (credits/free XP), but Historical Battle statistics are added to the player account and tracked for this specific game mode only.  (Yeah, that part would take a lot of work.  Could be originally implemented w/o stats, which can be added later as a bone to the player base, which will immediately commence to complaining that there are no Historical Battle stats.)

It could also be built into the training room, allowing TC-like play with player-built teams contesting against each other, and lends itself well to eSports utilization for things like ladder tournaments.

It could work.

Chopa #15 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:14

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I like your idea. Though the vehicles would have to be provided from a central pool to keep them within your historical specs....very few folks will have vehicles that match your specs in their garages due to the constant grind to get "uber". Perhaps players could use their own trained crews and equipment/consumables if they have the required quals. but I think you will have a zillion Tiger crews trying to climb into a few tanks and not many PzIII crews to spread among lots of vehicles. Perhaps we should all get pool tanks and crews to make the mix work. Would players get payoffs from the battles? And How?

MightyMouseV #16 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:14

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Panther F got the 88L/71...there is one at the Patton Museum....saw it...guy working there loved pointing it out.....think he said there was only two made....

TorukMakto #17 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:16

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I'd say do the battle of kursk, but that many tanks would probably crash the servers. :)

missile742 #18 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:18

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Quote: Panther F got the 88L/71...there is one at the Patton Museum

Big difference between the "one-off" variants you can find in museums and the production models that were common in the field.  How many production Panther Fs were there and how many saw the battlefield with the 88/L71, let alone the ridiculous 75/L100?

BlackSunRising #19 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:30

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this post is the best damn post iv seen here. i would  re buy and re train  crews just to participate in there battles for sure.... come to think of if i would probably stop playing the normal game all together

Legiondude #20 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 01:33

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View PostSir_Ronbo, on Dec 06 2012 - 01:14, said:

Panther F got the 88L/71...there is one at the Patton Museum....saw it...guy working there loved pointing it out.....think he said there was only two made....
I'm not finding anything on google besides the Patton Museum's Panther II with Ausf. G turret and 75mm L/70, pics or it didn't happen