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Batchat vs. 50B

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Poll: Batchat vs. 50B (117 members have cast votes)

If you have a batchat, is there any reason to grind a 50B?

  1. Yes! It is useful in some situations! (34 votes [29.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.06%

  2. Yes, more tanks never hurts. Gotta grind 'em all! (30 votes [25.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.64%

  3. No, hold out for the T57! (19 votes [16.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.24%

  4. No, its redundant at best, useless at worst. (34 votes [29.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.06%

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Garbad #1 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:12

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Pubstar McPubberPub, on Dec 05 2012 - 03:43, said:

I've seen you answer these every now and then, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I currently own a Batchat, and love the crazy little bugger to death. I've been considering a new line to grind down, and I was wondering if there was any merit to getting the 50B.

From what people keep telling me, the 50B is just a supposedly inferior Batchat, with the exception of slightly more pen (somewhat negated by the Bat's standard APCR), a tad more HP, and slightly better salvo time/ reload time. If you have any spare time between preaching to the forums and goofing around ingame, I'd appreciate if you could go through a (quick)sort of Pros vs. Cons for the two.

Thanks in advance,
I think it depends.

In theory, the 50B has superior DPS, soft stats (notably interclip time, depression), and more HP. Its also got enough ammo that it never runs out (the batchat has only 30 rounds, which is often not enough, especially to mix ammo types). In reality, the ability to hit and run as an autoloader is key -- the 50B is fast...but not really fast enough to escape a bad situation. Plus, its lowish clip alpha mean it can't really solo a target -- it can only provide support fire, where a batchat can roam and win 1v1s. On top of that, the batchat is a superior scout, meaning you contribute a massive amount without ever firing a shot (or while reloading). So in conclusion, its not close. The batchat is a godtank, one of the very best in Wot. The 50b is simply not even close to as good as the batchat in general play...and yet...

...the truth is the 50B is not competing with the bat. The bat is the only endgame light, the best endgame skirmisher. It has no competitors, and is head and shoulders better than anyone at those roles. But if you look at the narrow niche of providing support fire, the french heavies are more deserving of a look. You will never be as flexible, effective, or godlike as a batchat overall, but you can provide quality supporting fire. Compare a 50B to say an E-50M, a 268, a t-62A, or so on and it gets a little more use. Here's where the clip comes in handy -- unlike the batchat, you can generally dump a full clip into a t10 heavy/td before they reload to fire back. This means you can surge forward, savage someone, and get back to the safety of your blob reasonably well. Compared to other support fire, you have the following advantages.

PROS:
- burst damage is deadly as crap, when well used it can really tip fights in your favor
- adequate sniping, depression, etc
- adequate agility for tactical movement, short term flanks, etc. Just not scouting or outrunning fast meds.

CONS:
- lowest DPM of support damage tanks (tied with E-50M)
- worthless armor
- poor camo

Here's a recent replay in the 50B to get a feel for it. You can find older ones in my page:
http://mwreplays.com/replayimg/7d1a84273cdb7ac4e1751f3eea31c19e.png

A final consideration is the T57. The T57 is performing very badly right now, and I suspect will have to be buffed before release. But as it is now, at a minimum its another choice in a very crowded ecosystem. The T57 will have more DPM with equivalent soft stats, but be much slower. If it has a 6 round clip...I'd take the T57 most of the time. If it keeps the 4 round clip, I'll take the 50B. This of course all depends on a ton of stats that aren't finalized or tested by me, but its worth considering.

CONCLUSION:

The french heavies are a real mixed bag. Some players utterly dominate in them. Some don't. It just depends on how you play. I was one of the ones who can dominate, as I get a lot of impact out of a clip in the right place. I think it has a niche - a small, crowded one, but one that isn't to be ignored. In G, we often bring say 9x core heavies, 2x scouts, 2x arty...and two support damage dealers. The 50B is fighting for those spots against a large collection of worthy opponents (t62, brit heavy, foch, 268, etc) but on occasion is a good choice.

So while not comparable to the batchat, either in role or in overall quality, the 50B is not completely useless. In pubs, it can do well in matches with many other top tier tanks (its very poor vs. artyparty). In competitive play, it gets a look sometimes.

Gyarados #2 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:16

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There's also the fact that the 50B may not be ultra competitive, but since it's buffs with 8.0, it's fun as hell in pubs again because it basically got un-nerfed.

CrabEatOff #3 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:18

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Supposing you wanted pub funs and champion TC games, would you say the AMX 50 100 reigned supreme in that fire support role? The only competition that comes readily to mind in that niche is the JP2 and M26.

lft #4 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:20

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I have both. Can't stand the 50B. It's a bigger, slower BatChat.

And ironically enough, probably bounces less shells than my BatChat.

LESTAT_SiK #5 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:21

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I have both. They really are two different tanks, with two different roles. With that said, the batchat is the more versatile and can fill multiple roles. The 50b on the other hand.....well, you would just have to see one played appropriately as garbad pointed out.

The 50b is VERY useful, unless a dumbass is in it......then, well, welcome to WoT. The same can be said of a batchat btw.

WarStore #6 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:22

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50B could use more armor on the turret, to take advantage of gun depression, and less armor on the hull.

I don't remember taking a hit on the hull. Everyone goes for the soft turret, each it is also a lot easier to hit.

Garbad #7 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:22

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View PostCrabEatOff, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:18, said:

Supposing you wanted pub funs and champion TC games, would you say the AMX 50 100 reigned supreme in that fire support role? The only competition that comes readily to mind in that niche is the JP2 and M26.
G TSs often have 1-2 50 100s, caernavons, or a M26 in that role. Usually someone trying to do their double, but its considered acceptable.

LESTAT_SiK #8 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:22

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View Postlft, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:20, said:

I have both. Can't stand the 50B. It's a bigger, slower BatChat.

And ironically enough, probably bounces less shells than my BatChat.

Wrong, the 50b is NOT a bigger, slower batchat, and this is probably why you hate it. My advice is to sell it, you are doing it wrong.

lft #9 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:26

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View PostLESTAT_SiK, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:22, said:

Wrong, the 50b is NOT a bigger, slower batchat, and this is probably why you hate it. My advice is to sell it, you are doing it wrong.

Oh, right sorry, it's faster and smaller than the BatChat.

DBrimstone #10 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:27

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I've never driven one but I had an experience that supports 1 of the points Garbad made. I was in my shiny new m48 yesterday and I flanked a couple t95's and an obj... tier 9 one... I forget it's number. And AMX 50-120 with it's best gun rolls up behind me, pumped me full of shells, and tried to run away. Before he had reloaded, I tracked him and killed him. Left me with like 23 hp but that was enough to finish him, the obj, and t95. It nearly killed me but it didn't quite have the firepower to seal the deal. If that were a batchat, I woulda been dead

LESTAT_SiK #11 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:31

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View Postlft, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:26, said:



Oh, right sorry, it's faster and smaller than the BatChat.

The speed and size have nothing to do with it. IF you play a 50b like a batchat, you will fail, plain and simple.

mrnotwo #12 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:34

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Against other support dpm tanks, nothing has so little armor or takes as much damage from arty as 50B. I still find it fun to play.

Edited by mrnotwo, Dec 06 2012 - 20:34.


lft #13 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:35

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View PostLESTAT_SiK, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:31, said:

The speed and size have nothing to do with it. IF you play a 50b like a batchat, you will fail, plain and simple.

Oh, I said play the 50B like a BatChat, sorry.

Sarcasm aside, the BatChat can do what the 50B does, but better if it should come down to it.

Although, you are right, being the size of a barn has nothing to do with anything in this game.

mrnotwo #14 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:36

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View PostDBrimstone, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:27, said:

I've never driven one but I had an experience that supports 1 of the points Garbad made. I was in my shiny new m48 yesterday and I flanked a couple t95's and an obj... tier 9 one... I forget it's number. And AMX 50-120 with it's best gun rolls up behind me, pumped me full of shells, and tried to run away. Before he had reloaded, I tracked him and killed him. Left me with like 23 hp but that was enough to finish him, the obj, and t95. It nearly killed me but it didn't quite have the firepower to seal the deal. If that were a batchat, I woulda been dead
those amx tanks are very good rammers. not sure why he didn't ram you to seal the deal.

Garbad #15 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:36

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View Postmrnotwo, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:34, said:

Against other support dpm tanks, nothing has so little armor or takes as much damage from arty as 50B. I still find it fun to play.
That seems to be WG's "working as intended" thinking. They put arty in to counter slow, heavy tanks yet make arty most effective against fast, light armored tanks, thus countering everything.

CrabEatOff #16 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:37

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View PostGarbad, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:36, said:

That seems to be WG's "working as intended" thinking. They put arty in to counter slow, heavy tanks yet make arty most effective against fast, light armored tanks, thus countering everything.


Especially fun.

Brock7142 #17 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:37

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View PostGarbad, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:12, said:

. The T57 is performing very badly right now, a

Been saying that since test server launched it. I sincerely doubt it'll ever be buffed.

Everyone will still take the 50b over it.

Edited by Brock7142, Dec 06 2012 - 20:40.


Mazz #18 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:39

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The one thing I fear about a 50B is that a T-62A can't full health solo one inside his second reload, if both are driven well. The 50B merely has to land one of four shots in the first clip and reload, and in 27 seconds can still burst out a 62A before the 62A can fire all the shots needed to kill a full 50B at the max reload of 5.44s (excluding the gold crew consumables since those aren't used in pubs). This isn't including that the 50B armor does get reasonable deflections due to angles and misplaced brawl shots.

The Bat cannot do this because if he doesn't kill the 62A in the first clip (very unlikely in most cases since a well driven 62A can neutral steer faster then anyone and force a bounce/track) he'll die before he finishes the second (and isn't/can't running away).

I find this trait to make the 50B an excellent medium killer, but you rarely see it used as such, or get a pure HP 1v1 like this.

but in almost all other cases, everything the 50B does the Bat can do better.

lft #19 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:44

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View PostMazz, on Dec 06 2012 - 20:39, said:

The one thing I fear about a 50B is that a T-62A can't full health solo one inside his second reload, if both are driven well. The 50B merely has to land one of four shots in the first clip and reload, and in 27 seconds can still burst out a 62A before the 62A can fire all the shots needed to kill a full 50B at the max reload of 5.44s (excluding the gold crew consumables since those aren't used in pubs). This isn't including that the 50B armor does get reasonable deflections due to angles and misplaced brawl shots.

The Bat cannot do this because if he doesn't kill the 62A in the first clip (very unlikely in most cases since a well driven 62A can neutral steer faster the anyone and force a bounce) he'll die before he finishes the second (and isn't/can't running away).

I find this trait to make the 50B an excellent medium killer, but you rarely see it used as such, or get a pure HP 1v1 like this.

but in almost all other cases, everything the 50B does the Bat can do better.

Unless the T62A decides to face hug and LolHE the ultra squishy side of the 50B. While if it comes down to sniping over range, the T62A is very capable of bouncing shots... the 50B not so much. T62A also has the faster aiming, more accurate gun. So yea.

Behrooz_Wulf #20 Posted Dec 06 2012 - 20:46

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I have both and I enjoy the 50B much more, the 27 second drum reload allows it to get out of situations that the batchat would be unable to due to the 15 or so additional seconds to reload it's drum.  They are both enjoyable and I play them both as front line support tanks.  It sickens me every time I see a batchat suiscout and end up doing about 1000 damage if they are lucky.