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Relative Merit of Sniping vs. Brawling

sniping brawling working_as_intended experience Russian_Bias

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ArmoredCorps #1 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 20:39

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Background: With the x3 crew, I got 2 percent on my Chinese crew yesterday. Mind you, that's 120K exp, but accelerated crew training & x3 means, a 1000 exp win is, essentially, 6000 experience for one crewmember and 3000 for the rest. Pretty boss.

But with a run of good game's, I think I stumbled upon a good comparison of the value of say, sniping, versus brawling.

Now as I understand it, among the many, many factors that go into experience besides raw damage, and spots, there's a few big things:
*spotting -- and also killing -- arty. This is a big bump.
*kills. You get a bit of an extra exp for a kill shot.
*Close-combat bonus. This one is the key one: Russian tanks will tend to get, Type 59's especially, having bully armor in a low, preferred MM tier spread. It's effect is allegedly low, but how low?


========================================

First, a sniping effort:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/9bb1a68a809c569ec430c1ad3a21fb90.png
Synopsis: Siegefried Line, no arty. I take a Type, and drag-net the field (a term I use to mean, clear out everyone on one far flank, so you contain an enemy force, the bonus is obvious flank opportunities and a great deal of security for yourself and your team)

I run into a lone Panther -- my only spot -- and get him to run away with most of his life gone. At this point, I post up and just dump shots into the rear, left city -- TD's sitting in the open, unable to spot me generally. I don't get any further from this spot all game but to close distance for a kill.

In the end: 15 / 21 hits, good for 3337 damage and 95K gross. 1374 exp (with premium; I've always run premium since the game went live)

2nd, a game I had uploaded a few weeks ago (brother in arms, and 10, 2-man platoon kills \o/):
This, is the brawling effort:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/cfcdb148ede6681286c30c3249d0df98.png
Cliff Notes: Fisherman's Bay, 1 weak arty, North spawn.

Me & Junkers fly down the 1 line unopposed, and we have a posse. We crest the South Western hill and start to tear hapless TD's to pieces at bayonet distance. Allies do their part, too.
We end up surviving to flex to hot spots. I (somewhat poorly) try to circle a T29. He's obviously not very good and I stop in his face and snipe a weak light tank who (IIRC) TRACKED me in my duel. (I don't know what he thought I was going to do once he made it obvious his crap light tank was a mortal threat)

I finish it off, as my RSG damages the engine and that's that.

Last note: the other critical difference -- but also more likely to go hand-in-hand with brawling vs. opportunity sniping -- you get more critical hits brawling.

15/16 hits -- very efficient, but only 2357 damage. 1000 less than the game above; likewise, 15K less gross earnings. But experience? 1632, 300 more! What's the difference?
One extra spot (probably insignificant), 4 kill shots and almost %90 damage was within 100 meters.

PS -- allied Type 59 (not JunkersHiryu) is hilarious to read in this replay. Much zing-worthy smacktalk.

And finally, the complete game:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/c4589fefa8f3e60ddf29ed6b95669bac.png

You can see the results above -- of note, I spot & kill both arty, which reward you handsomely. This gives you an idea, if you haven't seen these kind of games, the raw workload that goes into such big exp games. (this would have been ~1400 exp without a premium account)


TL;DR -- there are big, fat experience multipliers for getting kill shots and brawling, or close-distance fighting. Descriptions of them lead you to believe they're small, but they seem to be large.
To the point a sniper can do 1000 more damage but get 300 less experience than a different tank or a different playstyle.
These are pretty wide gulfs and represent an artificial advantage to brawling tanks in terms of grinding and crew building.

Edited by ArmouredCorps, Jan 02 2013 - 20:40.


Amanda_HugginKiss #2 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 20:42

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you forgot the benefits of CAP FAST™

Tibalt #3 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 20:44

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Yea, i've noticed this too. Sniper tds get a  little hammered on exp and such. I guess if you want the big bucks you have to get in there. I actually have no problem with this, though i think they should extend it to maybe 200m. If you're further back than that you are having someone else take the risk for you. When i'm in a td i have no problem sharing my exp with the spotter/scout as part of a duo. He's taking the most risk, he should get a portion for helping me out.

Lazar_Lyusternik #4 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 20:48

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Half the issue is snipers normally don't spot their own targets, and half their XP and credits goes to whoever is spotting for them.

ArmoredCorps #5 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 20:57

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View PostJackQueRudo, on Jan 02 2013 - 20:42, said:

you forgot the benefits of CAP FAST™
http://static.fjcdn....5ecc_613854.jpg

I don't even think I have a replay of me capping out in a Type around 2000-3000 damage ranges. At least not 8.2.

It might be interesting how much experience you'd get (I bet it wouldn't be much) but we all obviously know it pads the ship out of efficiency.

_ESA_ #6 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:00

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Thats why we can get those big exp/game averages in the kv5/is6/super persh... up n close 4tw!! 1300+ is not possible in any sniping tank in the game... td medium or heavy.

ArmoredCorps #7 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:14

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Basically that _ESA_. Really makes grinding Centurion tanks a bore. Big exp. games are just a rarity, you either survive long enough to get arty spots and damage or you shoehorn a sniper into a brawling role, and probably suffer the damage and broken modules as a result.

(esp. ammorack; seriously, who puts rounds directly behind the lower glacis? Brit tier 8-10 meds & HT's all suffer from this. I ammo racked a Caernarvon center-mass, lowest-frontal hull once in a T54E1. I just felt sorry for him)

Edited by ArmouredCorps, Jan 02 2013 - 21:14.


Buthrakaur #8 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:17

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A major factor you need to take into account if you are trying to actually figure this out, is the exp bonus you get based on TOTAL damage done by your TEAM.  This is more significant than a  lot of the bonuses you mention, and just takes a little time to work out.  Add the damage dealt directly by all 15 tanks on your team, yourself included, granted, just like a lot of the bonuses, the exact multiplier is unknown, but over many matches where you preform the same, you will see this makes the biggest difference.  It is believed that this bonus only gives you exp based on the damage your team dealt while you were alive, and that would be interesting, but next to impossible to figure out.

Skraeling #9 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:20

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View Post_ESA_, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:00, said:

Thats why we can get those big exp/game averages in the kv5/is6/super persh... up n close 4tw!! 1300+ is not possible in any sniping tank in the game... td medium or heavy.

uhh.. yeah it is.

ArmoredCorps #10 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:21

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View PostButhrakaur, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:17, said:

A major factor you need to take into account if you are trying to actually figure this out, is the exp bonus you get based on TOTAL damage done by your TEAM.  This is more significant than a  lot of the bonuses you mention, and just takes a little time to work out.  Add the damage dealt directly by all 15 tanks on your team, yourself included, granted, just like a lot of the bonuses, the exact multiplier is unknown, but over many matches where you preform the same, you will see this makes the biggest difference.  It is believed that this bonus only gives you exp based on the damage your team dealt while you were alive, and that would be interesting, but next to impossible to figure out.
Well, the 2 I compared directly, all tanks were killed, and there were top-tier 8 games. Hopefully that difference was small enough not to matter.

PS -- I'm familiar with the total exp bump for killing all enemies. Which is why I loathe Cap Fasters.TM

Edited by ArmouredCorps, Jan 02 2013 - 21:23.


HanZulu #11 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:29

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View PostArmouredCorps, on Jan 02 2013 - 20:39, said:

Background: With the x3 crew, I got 2 percent on my Chinese crew yesterday. Mind you, that's 120K exp, but accelerated crew training & x3 means, a 1000 exp win is, essentially, 6000 experience for one crewmember and 3000 for the rest. Pretty boss.

But with a run of good game's, I think I stumbled upon a good comparison of the value of say, sniping, versus brawling.

Now as I understand it, among the many, many factors that go into experience besides raw damage, and spots, there's a few big things:
*spotting -- and also killing -- arty. This is a big bump.
*kills. You get a bit of an extra exp for a kill shot.
*Close-combat bonus. This one is the key one: Russian tanks will tend to get, Type 59's especially, having bully armor in a low, preferred MM tier spread. It's effect is allegedly low, but how low?


========================================

First, a sniping effort:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/9bb1a68a809c569ec430c1ad3a21fb90.png
Synopsis: Siegefried Line, no arty. I take a Type, and drag-net the field (a term I use to mean, clear out everyone on one far flank, so you contain an enemy force, the bonus is obvious flank opportunities and a great deal of security for yourself and your team)

I run into a lone Panther -- my only spot -- and get him to run away with most of his life gone. At this point, I post up and just dump shots into the rear, left city -- TD's sitting in the open, unable to spot me generally. I don't get any further from this spot all game but to close distance for a kill.

In the end: 15 / 21 hits, good for 3337 damage and 95K gross. 1374 exp (with premium; I've always run premium since the game went live)

2nd, a game I had uploaded a few weeks ago (brother in arms, and 10, 2-man platoon kills \o/):
This, is the brawling effort:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/cfcdb148ede6681286c30c3249d0df98.png
Cliff Notes: Fisherman's Bay, 1 weak arty, North spawn.

Me & Junkers fly down the 1 line unopposed, and we have a posse. We crest the South Western hill and start to tear hapless TD's to pieces at bayonet distance. Allies do their part, too.
We end up surviving to flex to hot spots. I (somewhat poorly) try to circle a T29. He's obviously not very good and I stop in his face and snipe a weak light tank who (IIRC) TRACKED me in my duel. (I don't know what he thought I was going to do once he made it obvious his crap light tank was a mortal threat)

I finish it off, as my RSG damages the engine and that's that.

Last note: the other critical difference -- but also more likely to go hand-in-hand with brawling vs. opportunity sniping -- you get more critical hits brawling.

15/16 hits -- very efficient, but only 2357 damage. 1000 less than the game above; likewise, 15K less gross earnings. But experience? 1632, 300 more! What's the difference?
One extra spot (probably insignificant), 4 kill shots and almost %90 damage was within 100 meters.

PS -- allied Type 59 (not JunkersHiryu) is hilarious to read in this replay. Much zing-worthy smacktalk.

And finally, the complete game:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/c4589fefa8f3e60ddf29ed6b95669bac.png

You can see the results above -- of note, I spot & kill both arty, which reward you handsomely. This gives you an idea, if you haven't seen these kind of games, the raw workload that goes into such big exp games. (this would have been ~1400 exp without a premium account)


TL;DR -- there are big, fat experience multipliers for getting kill shots and brawling, or close-distance fighting. Descriptions of them lead you to believe they're small, but they seem to be large.
To the point a sniper can do 1000 more damage but get 300 less experience than a different tank or a different playstyle.
These are pretty wide gulfs and represent an artificial advantage to brawling tanks in terms of grinding and crew building.

Sry out of +1mio , I always said this is one of the biggest disadvantages of the German tech tree. But hey you still can farm sniper medals on Russian tanks, cause you can get them for brawling as well. I'm not sure if IRL snipers brawl?

Lophat #12 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:32

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View PostButhrakaur, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:17, said:

A major factor you need to take into account if you are trying to actually figure this out, is the exp bonus you get based on TOTAL damage done by your TEAM.  This is more significant than a  lot of the bonuses you mention, and just takes a little time to work out.  Add the damage dealt directly by all 15 tanks on your team, yourself included, granted, just like a lot of the bonuses, the exact multiplier is unknown, but over many matches where you preform the same, you will see this makes the biggest difference.  It is believed that this bonus only gives you exp based on the damage your team dealt while you were alive, and that would be interesting, but next to impossible to figure out.

it works whether you are alive or not.  this is why dieing as quickly as possible is the fastest way to grind XP.  basically your teamates are making xp for you while you are off playing another game.  in tier 8+ matches, you get 500ish xp (with premium) if all enemy vehicles are destroyed if you do nothing at all (drown in the first 15 seconds for example).

CryoVolt #13 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:49

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How about the factor of damaging higher tier tanks?  I think this one factor will overwhelm whatever other relationships you are trying to tease out.  Still, I think brawling tanks will get more XP no matter what, just because they spot what the damage and get side / rear shots on high tiers.

Midnitewolf #14 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:49

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View Post_ESA_, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:00, said:

Thats why we can get those big exp/game averages in the kv5/is6/super persh... up n close 4tw!! 1300+ is not possible in any sniping tank in the game... td medium or heavy.

SU-100 - 1719 Max XP
SU-100M1 - 1462 max XP
SU-152 - 1287 MAX XP
Centurion Mk I - 2026 Max XP
Panther II - 1443 Max XP
Panther - 1909 Max XP


Each and every one of those vehicles is or has been used by me primarily as a sniper and the only one that didn't break 1300 XP is the SU-152 which I only used the Derp gun on yet even with that crappy, non-sniper gun it almost hit the 1300 mark.

The merits of sniping vs brawling depend completely on the tank or TD.  For example, taking my Centurion into a brawl or even in the vangard means sudden death yet it is one of my top performers.  Same goes for the SU-100 which I always played sniper with.  You can argue the Panther and the Panther II are likely to scout and spot more but both perform better in the backfield sniping and that is mostly where I played them.

thejoker91 #15 Posted Jan 02 2013 - 21:53

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View PostMidnitewolf, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:49, said:

SU-100 - 1719 Max XP
SU-100M1 - 1462 max XP
SU-152 - 1287 MAX XP
Centurion Mk I - 2026 Max XP
Panther II - 1443 Max XP
Panther - 1909 Max XP


Each and every one of those vehicles is or has been used by me primarily as a sniper and the only one that didn't break 1300 XP is the SU-152 which I only used the Derp gun on yet even with that crappy, non-sniper gun it almost hit the 1300 mark.

The merits of sniping vs brawling depend completely on the tank or TD.  For example, taking my Centurion into a brawl or even in the vangard means sudden death yet it is one of my top performers.  Same goes for the SU-100 which I always played sniper with.  You can argue the Panther and the Panther II are likely to scout and spot more but both perform better in the backfield sniping and that is mostly where I played them.

High XP games in snipers are RARE. RARE means it doesnt happen often.

Nobody says high XP games in snipers are non-existen.



Avg XP would be much more useful than highest XP.

Skraeling #16 Posted Jan 03 2013 - 05:15

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View Postthejoker91, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:53, said:

Nobody says high XP games in snipers are non-existen.



Yeah.... other than this guy.

View Post_ESA_, on Jan 02 2013 - 21:00, said:

Thats why we can get those big exp/game averages in the kv5/is6/super persh... up n close 4tw!! 1300+ is not possible in any sniping tank in the game... td medium or heavy.

Edited by Skraeling, Jan 03 2013 - 05:15.


Kankou #17 Posted Jan 03 2013 - 05:23

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The "problem" with snipers is that most of the time you snipe at those other sighted for you, thus you have to give up half the damage-related exp/credit. However, if you're a sniper who actually is the one sighting, you can make a nice small fortune.

_ESA_ #18 Posted Jan 03 2013 - 13:09

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1300+AVERAGE EXP PER GAME IS NOT POSSIBLE IN A SNIPER TANK. of course u can get a 1300 single exp game.......
sorry for not making myself clear enough.

thejoker91 #19 Posted Jan 03 2013 - 14:39

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View PostSkraeling, on Jan 03 2013 - 05:15, said:

Yeah.... other than this guy.

the wording sucks a bit, but I understood that as 1300 avg xp per game in snipers.  Since he does says "big exp/game averages in the kv5/is6/super persh"

A bit confusing, but still talking about exp/game averages.

SkunkButt #20 Posted Jan 03 2013 - 14:53

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That's unfortunate for us who find that our brawling skills are laughable, but our sniping skills are excellent.
I've gotten 1800xp matches with my Lowe played as a sniper, even at the top of the stack, but it's rare, it's difficult, and at some point something's going to get Danger Close so, I guess, the XP bump comes from unintended brawling.

Alas, it seems that my playstyle is penalized.  I feel sorry for arty, too, because they spend huge amounts of silver, can potentially do insane amounts of damage (I've seen 8k done by 1 arty with zero kills), but get gimp for XP.