Jump to content


Modern Ukrainian Tanks

Modern Tanks Ukrainian

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
24 replies to this topic

ViktorTsoi #1 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 04:50

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 250
  • Member since:
    02-08-2012
Hello Comrade Tankers,


So when people talk about Eastern Europe Tank Armies all they say is Russia well what about Ukraine?They had the second largest stockpile of nuclear arms after Russia after the collapse of the USSR ( They got rid of all of them).
So how are the Ukrainians holding up with their tank warfare they used to make all sorts of Soviet MBT's what now ?

Couple of questions about Ukrainian Tanks , the use of them in military and overall tank building industry.

First: I know they have the
T-84 MBT
T-64B MBT
T-64
and variants of Cold War Soviet MBT's

How are they?
How many do they have?
How effective they are?
How cost effective are they?
What are they comparable too?

Then also the BMD and BTR series APC's and IFV,'s

So how effective is Ukraine as a armored force ,and how is the leadership any good officers ?

DATPERSIANKAT #2 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 05:06

    Private

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 7
  • Member since:
    05-02-2012
It would be interesting, but World of Tanks is based on tanks before the modern tanks were created. If they put it in the game, it would just dominate everything that's out there.

Tactical_Blankie #3 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 05:21

    Captain

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 1,775
  • Member since:
    02-23-2011
I believe the year limit is 1954

alternaive #4 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 11:24

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 352
  • Member since:
    08-12-2012

View PostViktorTsoi, on Jan 08 2013 - 04:50, said:

How are they?

Most of their tanks are outdated, many are still in the same condition as they were during the Soviet times. Only a small number of their tanks has been upgraded - most of them T-64s. The upgraded T-64s (called Bulat) are fine, but they are not comparable to modern tanks in all aspects.
You can take a T-64 and replace engine, fire control system, gun, transmission etc., but the tank still remains based on a 1960s design. This means that the autoloader cannot use longer rounds and that the cast turret was made with non-modular armor (meaning that still the Bulat carries under a layer of applique armor still the cast turret of the T-64B with armor from the late 1960s).

View PostViktorTsoi, on Jan 08 2013 - 04:50, said:

How cost effective are they?

They cannot afford buying T-84s. The Ukranian government bought 10 T-84 tanks in 2002-2003, but had to sell most of them later. Some of them ended up in the United States, where they were used for ballistic testing and OPFOR.

NGU873X #5 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 12:42

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 719
  • Member since:
    06-03-2011
Eastern Europes modern MBT's? this is a good example here just 2bad there's no specific info on the estimated armour thickness

ViktorTsoi #6 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 15:43

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 250
  • Member since:
    02-08-2012

View PostDATPERSIANKAT, on Jan 08 2013 - 05:06, said:

It would be interesting, but World of Tanks is based on tanks before the modern tanks were created. If they put it in the game, it would just dominate everything that's out there.

View Postcalderhutchins, on Jan 08 2013 - 05:21, said:

I believe the year limit is 1954

I believe you didn't read my questions , I never state I want them in the game I just ask how they are in real life, please read carefully before you post useless answers.

Xlucine #7 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 18:33

    Major

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 6,505
  • Member since:
    03-03-2011

View PostNGU873X, on Jan 08 2013 - 12:42, said:

Eastern Europes modern MBT's? this is a good example here just 2bad there's no specific info on the estimated armour thickness

since when is serbia ukraine?

NGU873X #8 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 19:42

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 719
  • Member since:
    06-03-2011

View PostXlucine, on Jan 08 2013 - 18:33, said:

since when is serbia ukraine?
Does eastern Europe say something? The OP mentioned Eastern Europe tanks so another example

Xlucine #9 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 21:01

    Major

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 6,505
  • Member since:
    03-03-2011
OP is asking about Ukraine. There's a difference between the two countries.

alternaive #10 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 22:25

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 352
  • Member since:
    08-12-2012

View PostNGU873X, on Jan 08 2013 - 12:42, said:

Eastern Europes modern MBT's? this is a good example here just 2bad there's no specific info on the estimated armour thickness

There is no reason for specific information about the armor thickness. The M-84AS is an upgrade of the M-84A (which means that the turret armour is kept and only ERA was added). The M-84A is a licence production of the T-72A, which entered service with the Soviet Union in 1978. The M-84AS is as good protected as a T-72A with Kontakt-5 ERA. The T-90 with much thicker armour is 3 tonnes heavier.

NGU873X #11 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 23:04

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 719
  • Member since:
    06-03-2011

View PostXlucine, on Jan 08 2013 - 21:01, said:

OP is asking about Ukraine. There's a difference between the two countries.
Just saying, there are other Eastern European countries together with Ukraine which aren't mentioned allot in tank warfare.......
Btw, any info on the future production of the T-84?


View Postalternaive, on Jan 08 2013 - 22:25, said:

There is no reason for specific information about the armor thickness. The M-84AS is an upgrade of the M-84A (which means that the turret armour is kept and only ERA was added). The M-84A is a licence production of the T-72A, which entered service with the Soviet Union in 1978. The M-84AS is as good protected as a T-72A with Kontakt-5 ERA. The T-90 with much thicker armour is 3 tonnes heavier.
So you say license production >>>>>> The M-84 is based on the Soviet T-72 but with several modifications, including: a domestic fire-control system, improved composite armor, and a 1000-hp engine. Being based doesn't mean it's license produced
The M-84AS is as good protected as a T-72A >>>>>> This is the latest upgrade package of the M-84A in the Serbian Army. Adding a new fire control system, new armour consisting of cylindrical pad, high-hardness steel, titanium, aluminum, and NERA as well as modular Kontakt-5 armour, new AT-11 Sniper and Agava-2 thermal sights, and the Shtora defense suite.
It's like saying T-80 = T-84 while it isn't

alternaive #12 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 23:26

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 352
  • Member since:
    08-12-2012

Quote

So you say license production >>>>>> The M-84 is based on the Soviet T-72 but with several modifications, including: a domestic fire-control system, improved composite armor, and a 1000-hp engine. Being based doesn't mean it's license produced
The M-84AS is as good protected as a T-72A >>>>>> This is the latest upgrade package of the M-84A in the Serbian Army. Adding a new fire control system, new armour consisting of cylindrical pad, high-hardness steel, titanium, aluminum, and NERA as well as modular Kontakt-5 armour, new AT-11 Sniper and Agava-2 thermal sights, and the Shtora defense suite.
It's like saying T-80 = T-84 while it isn't

Wikipedia is not a good source. You should take a look at the claims there: Is there a source or is it unreferenced? These claims copied by you are unreferenced.
The "domestic fire-control system" used many components imported from the Soviet Union. Some components were domestic but not all. The larger engine is the main difference between the M-84 and the T-72. Armor of the intial model was according to Jane's identical.
The M-84A used the a modified T-72A turret with the same armor. This is insofar important because T-72A turret has non-modular armor (which means that you need to replace the whole turret of the tank), but there is no optical evidence and no source reporting that the M-84AS uses another turret (not even the Serbian wikipedia or the manufacturer claim so).

If there would be a source or an evidence saying that the M-84AS does not use the original turret (in the end the tanks are modified and not new built), then please share them with us.

Edited by alternaive, Jan 08 2013 - 23:27.


ViktorTsoi #13 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 23:46

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 250
  • Member since:
    02-08-2012
WHY ARE WE TALKING  ABOUT SERBIAN TANKS I ASKED ABOUT UKRAINIAN TANKS
Posted Image

NGU873X #14 Posted Jan 08 2013 - 23:59

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 719
  • Member since:
    06-03-2011

View Postalternaive, on Jan 08 2013 - 23:26, said:

Wikipedia is not a good source. You should take a look at the claims there: Is there a source or is it unreferenced? These claims copied by you are unreferenced.
The "domestic fire-control system" used many components imported from the Soviet Union. Some components were domestic but not all. The larger engine is the main difference between the M-84 and the T-72. Armor of the intial model was according to Jane's identical.
The M-84A used the a modified T-72A turret with the same armor. This is insofar important because T-72A turret has non-modular armor (which means that you need to replace the whole turret of the tank), but there is no optical evidence and no source reporting that the M-84AS uses another turret (not even the Serbian wikipedia or the manufacturer claim so).

If there would be a source or an evidence saying that the M-84AS does not use the original turret (in the end the tanks are modified and not new built), then please share them with us.
And your proof for those Soviet components?
Armour thickness is the same so ?(although I argue that) FCS does seem to be domestic
Spoiler                     
The turret does look a bit different IMO but could as well be that the M84 turret could as well be just Yugo made with the same armour.


View PostViktorTsoi, on Jan 08 2013 - 23:46, said:

Spoiler                     
Except for the T-84 Oplot the numbers should be right here although I would check that
T-72's doesn't seem to be in service but T-64 do? strange
Ukrainian tanks are largely (T-64's) inferior, btu the T-80 is still able to be a treat (if modernised) and so is the T-84 if they could produce more
Leadership? Well I wouldn't really know

Xlucine #15 Posted Jan 09 2013 - 02:19

    Major

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 6,505
  • Member since:
    03-03-2011

View PostNGU873X, on Jan 08 2013 - 23:59, said:

T-72's doesn't seem to be in service but T-64 do? strange

Ask yourself where was the T-64 made?

View PostNGU873X, on Jan 08 2013 - 23:59, said:

Ukrainian tanks are largely (T-64's) inferior,

Not as inferior as many tanks still in service in other nations (russia only just decommissioned their T-62's for instance), and bear in mind that a T-72 is mostly just a T-64 with different suspension, an enlarged engine bay & engine and a different autoloader.

alternaive #16 Posted Jan 09 2013 - 11:28

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 352
  • Member since:
    08-12-2012

Quote

And your proof for those Soviet components?

There is a list in Jane's Armour & Artillery (but various Russian websites include the same information). The M-84 includes for example among other parts the TNP-160, TNPA-65 and TNPO-168. New on the M-84A (I didn't found information about the basic M-84) are the DNNS-2 gunner's sight and the DNKS-2 commander's sight.
If domestic means "completely new" then the M-84's FCS is not domestic, but partial Soviet-made.

Quote

Not as inferior as many tanks still in service in other nations (russia only just decommissioned their T-62's for instance), and bear in mind that a T-72 is mostly just a T-64 with different suspension, an enlarged engine bay & engine and a different autoloader.

The T-64A and T-64B were not inferior to the contemporary T-72 models (they a rather better), but the T-64 production was discontinued in favor of the T-80. The later T-72 models (T-72B, T-72B1, T-72S, T-72BA, T-72BM) are in many aspects superior to the T-64A/B.

Edited by alternaive, Jan 09 2013 - 11:30.


NGU873X #17 Posted Jan 09 2013 - 13:35

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 719
  • Member since:
    06-03-2011

View Postalternaive, on Jan 09 2013 - 11:28, said:

There is a list in Jane's Armour & Artillery (but various Russian websites include the same information). The M-84 includes for example among other parts the TNP-160, TNPA-65 and TNPO-168. New on the M-84A (I didn't found information about the basic M-84) are the DNNS-2 gunner's sight and the DNKS-2 commander's sight.
If domestic means "completely new" then the M-84's FCS is not domestic, but partial Soviet-made.
Depends on what you mean with domestic, could you give a link to those Russian websites?

Quote

The T-64A and T-64B were not inferior to the contemporary T-72 models (they a rather better), but the T-64 production was discontinued in favor of the T-80. The later T-72 models (T-72B, T-72B1, T-72S, T-72BA, T-72BM) are in many aspects superior to the T-64A/B.
Why don't they sell some of them? They have more then enough tanks, that way they could atleast afford new T-84's or other upgrade packages

Lunaris #18 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 10:13

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 996
  • Member since:
    02-21-2011
T-84 is T-80 with diesel engine. Russian T-80 use gas turbine engine. Also Ukraine is the only one that can produce T-80 as Russian already close Kirov tank factory. Currently Ukraine can only produce T-54/55, T-64 and T-84 all produced by Kharkov factory. Sudan recently bought some T-54/55 at $50k each from them. T-64 offered to Indonesia but they buy Leo2 instead. I think Georgia recently bought 10 T-84, more or less to make up of their losses in 2008.

They also doing 120mm/125 gun upgrades on older tanks like T-54/55, its look weird to see those tanks with larger turret.

Quote

How are they?
They are doing fine. Russian close 2 of their 3 main tank factory, Ukraine still keep all of them, and recently the only place you can give older T-54/55 120/125mm gun upgrade. The Brits and Israeli can only upgrade them with 105 L7max.

Quote

How many do they have?
Not that many since the treat of old war already over and its not like the Russian capable of invading them. T-54/55 are in storage and sold to 3rd word countries, their main tank probably the T-64 since they have many of them and currently the only one can produce its spare parts. T-84 is for export since this one is the only modern tank they have and unfortunately they cant afford them.

Quote

What are they comparable too?
T-54/55 are comparable to M48, T-64 comparable to M60, T-84 comparable to M1.

Xlucine #19 Posted Jan 23 2013 - 17:25

    Major

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 6,505
  • Member since:
    03-03-2011

View PostLunaris, on Jan 23 2013 - 10:13, said:

T-84 is T-80 with diesel engine. Russian T-80 use gas turbine engine.

What about T-80UD?

Quote

Currently Ukraine can only produce T-54/55, T-64 and T-84 all produced by Kharkov factory. Sudan recently bought some T-54/55 at $50k each from them. T-64 offered to Indonesia but they buy Leo2 instead.

The T-55's and T-64's are refurbished from storage, not new manufacture

Quote

They also doing 120mm/125 gun upgrades on older tanks like T-54/55, its look weird to see those tanks with larger turret.

Same turret (with a very hard done by loader), just ERA covering.

Quote

Ukraine still keep all of them, and recently the only place you can give older T-54/55 120/125mm gun upgrade. The Brits and Israeli can only upgrade them with 105 L7max.

Chinese can fit 125mm guns in T-55 as well, check out the type 59G. And yes, it still is a standard type 59/T-55 turret

Quote

T-54/55 are comparable to M48, T-64 better than M60, T-84 comparable to M1.

FIFY

Lunaris #20 Posted Jan 24 2013 - 02:15

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 0 battles
  • 996
  • Member since:
    02-21-2011

View PostXlucine, on Jan 23 2013 - 17:25, said:

What about T-80UD?
That is the predecessor of T-84, and It only produced in Ukraine. The Russian did not produce diesel engine for T-80, one reason why they drop T-80 in favor of T-72.

View PostXlucine, on Jan 23 2013 - 17:25, said:

The T-55's and T-64's are refurbished from storage, not new manufacture

The factory still can produce them. T-54/55 and T-64 originaly from Kharkov factory. T-80 originally from St.Petersburg (now closed) but also produced at Khakov. So basically Kharkov factory is theonly factory in the world that have the capability to produce all 3 tanks, they cant produce T-72.

View PostXlucine, on Jan 23 2013 - 17:25, said:

Same turret (with a very hard done by loader), just ERA covering.
The company site says 125mm version has autoloader. The tank became bigger and heavier.

http://www.army-guid...roduct1907.html

Edited by Lunaris, Jan 24 2013 - 02:31.