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Encounter etiquette.


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NavySnipers #1 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:07

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I'm honestly surprised that with the time encounter mode has been around, people have still not realized that most (Ensk can be an exception), are won by flanking. Lets look:


Sand river. Should the team move south and capfasttm? Or should they move north and flank? North North North North North NORTH!

I am yet to see a lemming team win that map by pushing south. I have never seen it, and I doubt I ever will! A "Few Good Men" can hold the south the entire match (taking advantage of hills/cover/ect), while the rest of your team team pushes north. I'm willing to bet that even two people could hold the south. All it takes is a hull-down American tank, and a medium to defend him. When the rest of your team steamrolls the north, the enemy will be shot at from two sides (actually three if people go to the middle area). The capzone turns into nothing more than a killzone. Too often, when a lemming team loses the north, I'll see this happen:

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What can you possibly gain by attempting to cap if your flank is being pushed?


The general rule with encounter battles, is that the side of the map that the base is NOT on, is usually the side that determines the outcome. this tactic works for the following encounter maps:

Sand river
Himmelsdorf
Murovankam, Although I hate to admit it, because I'm a cap lemming due to my crappy computer not able to handle being in the forest)
El Halluf.... This one is an odd map. It usually is won by sniping. :P
Malinovka
Ruinberg
Siegfried line. This one is more won by brawling than anything else. There really isn't a "flanking zone". Pretty much whoever wins the city wins the game.

Steppes

What should you do if lemmings decide to capfasttm? What you don't do, is go with them. Go back yourself, and try to convince others to go back (as a group).


What is the exception to this general flanking rule? Ensk. If you notice, field battles usually take a LOT longer than battles in the north of sand river, the hill on himmelsdorf, ect. I've had games where we've won the field, but lost the base. If you split the team 50/50 between city and field, that's usually the best setup. If, in fact, you lose the city, but field gets there in time to reset the cap, it will almost always be a win.

Buff_Rumblecrunch #2 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:09

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View PostNavySnipers, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:07, said:

I'm honestly surprised that with the time encounter mode has been around, people have still not realized that most (Ensk can be an exception), are won by flanking. Lets look:

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

Whether or not it's an actual quote from him I've never known, but it's true as hell.

NavySnipers #3 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:09

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View PosteNumbra, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:09, said:

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

Whether or not it's an actual quote from him I've never known, but it's true as hell.

QFT

DarthRegis #4 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:17

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I've seen "capfast" work.  Just not very often.

Buff_Rumblecrunch #5 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:21

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View PostDarthRegis, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:17, said:

I've seen "capfast" work.  Just not very often.
Just because a bad plan occasionally sneaks in a victory that doesn't make it not a bad plan; it just means the losing team was dumber than the winning team.

SebastianCole #6 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:26

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I have seen "Cap-Fast" work in Himmelsdorf. While we cleared the hill quickly, the other team stacked enough in the cap, that are heavies did not have time to get there to reset it. Another 10 seconds and it would have been a whole different outcome.

Aethyr #7 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:26

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To me, the biggest problem with the lemming rush to the cap is that it is insanely easy to delay the cap.  Unless you have some ridiculous number of tanks in the cap, say 8-10, 2 or 3 of your tanks can delay the cap more than long enough for the rest of your team to obliterate whoever is left out in the field.  At that point, wonder of wonders, the enemy knows EXACTLY where you are, and they can flank you.  People seem to forget that sitting at the cap is telling the enemy where you are, and unless you have tanks effectively deployed to engage them, they can sweep in on you from every angle.  Have fun concentrating fire when they're shooting at you no matter which way you turn.

I've seen the lemming rush work on a rare occasion, but there is a reason that it's rare.  It's a bad tactic.

NavySnipers #8 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:27

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View PostSebastianCole, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:26, said:

I have seen "Cap-Fast" work in Himmelsdorf. While we cleared the hill quickly, the other team stacked enough in the cap, that are heavies did not have time to get there to reset it. Another 10 seconds and it would have been a whole different outcome.

View PosteNumbra, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:21, said:

Just because a bad plan occasionally sneaks in a victory that doesn't make it not a bad plan; it just means the losing team was dumber than the winning team.


seanboud #9 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:27

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View PosteNumbra, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:21, said:

Just because a bad plan occasionally sneaks in a victory that doesn't make it not a bad plan; it just means the losing team was dumber than the winning team.

To quote Murphy's Law: "If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid." Pub matches are fluid and random. There are no "one strategy fits all" with these scenarios as a result. Sometimes you just have to pause and see what develops.

NavySnipers #10 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:28

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View Postseanboud, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:27, said:

To quote Murphy's Law: "If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid." Pub matches are fluid and random. There are no "one strategy fits all" with these scenarios as a result. Sometimes you just have to pause and see what develops.

If something is works from stupidity 1/10 times, does that make it a viable tactic?

3BAC #11 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:38

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It never ceases to amaze me how Encounter mode, the only mode unfriendly to playing "Capture the Flag," is the one mode where people actually advise rushing to cap.

I've seen cap fast work on Sand River and Himmelsdorf.  Because of the cover near those cap circles, a group defending the approaches can let another group cap for the win.  On the other hand, I've got a Kolobanov's medal from defending Sand River from cap (they wouldn't leave cap, so I picked them off one-by-one).
I've seen it work on Ruinberg for the same reasons you mentioned for Ensk.
Murovanka also like Ensk, except the forest instead of the fields.  Can't have most of the team inching their way through the forest and expect to win.
Same for Steppes, when the slow heavies take too long to capture the rock and can't get back in time to break cap.

Cappers on El Halluf and Malinovka are just bait for the enemy and seldom survive the game.

Edited by 3BAC, Jan 16 2013 - 15:39.


Felonious_Monk #12 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 15:48

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I sometimes think the Encounter cap timer should be faster for this very reason.  More strategic variety. Even with three on the cap, there is plenty of time for all but the slowest tanks to smash a flanking/holding force and still get to cap in time to reset and win.

Every time I have seen Cap Fast ! work it required 1) the cap force to get on the cap ASAP (and not just sit in ambush, literally five seconds makes the difference here), and 2) epic delaying action from the flank force.

Atragon #13 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 16:06

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I like the games where the heavy important push tanks lemming rush to cap but don't cap.

Hoss1193 #14 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 16:14

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View PostAethyr, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:26, said:

I've seen the lemming rush work on a rare occasion, but there is a reason that it's rare.  It's a bad tactic.

The problem is, on Encounter, it isn't rare.  Teams try and fail at this ALL the time.

A few months ago, I recorded the outcome of 100 Encounter battles.   19 of 100 were won by a team that made an early move to the cap circle.   So it can work, but just doesn't succeed often enough, because of the slow capping speed.

This is what frustrates me to no end:  Over 6 months after the introduction of Encounter Mode, one would think that even the dimmest wits would eventually notice that capfastTM  doesn't succeed very often, and the tactic slowly dies out.  Bewilderingly, in my experience, the opposite has been happening.  It seems teams try this more frequently (with no more success) today than when the mode first came out.  Less than a 20% success rate, but I guess that 1 win of every 5 or 6 tries is enough....not just for some folks, but apparently for the majority.

As I type this, am reminded of the old Lakeville western valley rush, on the pre-physics map.  Similar dynamic.  It didn't work very often, but just often enough to keep people coming back to an overall losing strategy.

BattlecryGWJ #15 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 17:03

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The nice thing about moving to cap on encounter is that it can divert the enemy's effort, but putting stress on them that they'll lose due to cap.  Typically a good way to implement this is to put a couple tanks with good speed, maneuverability and view rang in the cap zone with 3 tanks backing them up, generally these should have high accuracy and good damage so they can snipe defenders effectively.  The remainder of the team can attack the flank... though it is hard to implement in Pubs.

Specifically for Himmelsdorf, it seems like you're better off splitting heavies between the hill and cap, with arties moving to where they can cover the cap zone and maybe the hill (with a light or med going with them for defense), while the rest of the team pushes the hill.  If you can get concentrated firepower up the hill and engaging the enemy you can get off the hill quickly despite what the enemy is doing, but it seems like if you wind up waiting for all your heavies to get up the hill the battle moves too slowly to get off the hill and reset cap.

Just my observations.

Tazilon #16 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 18:11

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As in the old Komarin, you CAN win by capping right away BUT  - and this is a huge but - BUT, your entire team except Arty must go together.  Then, if you are even smarter, you surround the smallest 2-3 tanks with your largest so enemies trying to break cap have no possible way of shooting them.  

That said, it is MUCH harder to pull off even if most people buy in because it takes 3 times as long to cap in Encounter.  This gives the opposing team ample time to break your cap on all your tanks.  

The most consistent strategy for Encounter is "Win the offside, then mop up their cap."

I am currently ranked 3rd on the NA server in Capture  Points;  I LOVE to cap - when it makes sense to do so.  It RARELY makes sense to cap in Encounter.

Aethyr #17 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 19:03

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View PostHoss1193, on Jan 16 2013 - 16:14, said:

The problem is, on Encounter, it isn't rare.  Teams try and fail at this ALL the time.

Yeah.  I was referring to the fact that a successful attempt at this is rare.  Tazilon described about the only example I could think of for when you can really make it successful, outside the opposing team just failing hard at knowing how to reset cap.

ThePigSheFlies #18 Posted Jan 16 2013 - 19:19

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View PosteNumbra, on Jan 16 2013 - 15:21, said:

Just because a bad plan occasionally sneaks in a victory that doesn't make it not a bad plan; it just means the losing team was dumber than the winning team.

or slower, or less observant of chat/mini-map (tunnel vision).

cap fast sometimes works when it shouldn't because heavy's get bogged down on the normal flank in a match with no arti, and can't get back to reset after the lights have all be demolished by driving quickly into range of 6 or 8 people on/around the cap.

regarding el halluf - if that rock were removed, or lowered in height there would be less camp-fests/snipering and it would require (with some grumbling) a bit more effort to have a team decide on flanking moves, or major pushes during the timer count-down.

frequently, one or two quick lights or mediums can get in the cap, hunker down and draw in red team which end up getting snipered with varying degrees of success.  if capping exposed your tank on that map to snipering more, then perhaps it wouldn't turn into the campfire weanie roast festivals that it often is at higher tiers.