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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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Okinoshima #21 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 22:23

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View Postlostwingman, on Jan 21 2013 - 22:17, said:

I'm skeptical of two things about Italian trees that I see, and I see it in every one of them.
1) The inclusion of one or multiple Patton tanks.
2) The Heavies.

While officially the first completely Italian built Patton was the M60 OTO Melera have several projects on modifying the M47, including arming it with an L7. There's a picture of it on SilentStalkers European Q&A page, I'd post a link myself but i'm a bit tied up right now.

rivit #22 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 22:36

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TT-->Guns-->Tank Battles and History--->Tanks--->More tanks--->Engineers, engines, designers, and patents--->Misc. (Combat reports, camo, radios)---

 --->Videos, books, links, vehicle/gun comparison, 3d sketches

 

Vollketten's Index pg.2 / posts 22, 23, 28, 34, 40
Introduction, tech trees, and sources: page# / Post#
Intro...1/1
Sources...1/14,174/3465
Tech tree...1/1

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__pid__3543076#entry3543076
Light...1/3
Med...1/4
Heavy...1/2
TDs...1/6
SPGs...1/5
Premiums...1/7

Ran's tech tree...374,381

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__7460__pid__10364189#entry10364189 

2nd version:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__7600__pid__10698314#entry10698314

Artillery Guns Mortars & Howitzers:

14mm HMG ...339

47mm auto...330/6598

47/32 and 2 pounder accuracy comparison and APHE performance...336​

47/32 penetration (archives)...243/4849,280/5600

47/32 penetration of British tanks from Thomas Jentz, Tank combat in North Africa...296/5908

47/32 penetration listed in Semovente 90/53 article Italy's Big Guns...355,359

47/32 new optics...280/5600,330/6596

47/48...280

65/17 E.P....280/5593

65/64 Model 1939...165/3286-3295

60/70 HVMS...382

76mm SR Ammo (PDF)...365

90/42-90/74mm cannons (list)...328/6543

90/44...325/6494

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__6480__pid__8747091#entry8747091

90/53 & 90/42 compatibility ...280/5595-97

90/53 older version...255/5082

90/53 penetration (archives)...237/4730,240/4792

http://www.wwiivehic...tion-tables.asp

90/53 206mm pen listed in Semovente 90/53 article Italy's Big Guns...355,359

90/53 206mm pen Italian wiki with source:

Spoiler

90/53 turret...307/6128

90/53 to 88/76 conversion...307/6128

90/70...307/6128

​90/71...328,380

90/74mm ...162/3237,187/3723

105/28...255/5081

105/40...259/5167,280/5589
120/45A ...99/1961

120/50...338

149/37 prototype...281/5609

149/40 ...91/1803

203mm...292
210mm howitzer...7/133,244
305mm model 11/16 DS carriage ...3/52

AP/AV 700 multiple grenade launcher...292

Breda 40mm L/70(Bofors with mods)...292

Brixia mortars...6/116,237/4734

Corazatta prime mover...16/307,153/3055-154/3062,155/3083-3086, 186/3607,254/5071

Fiat 4000 artillery tractor...258/5142

​Fortress guns and turrets...378,381

General...7/133,8/155,10/188,149/2962,149,244,350,351,381

Gun penetration table (new) version 1.1...96,121/2419,141/2811-2814,237,293,335(47mm),339,351,356(20mm),377 (75/34)

Gun penetrations (Warthunder):

https://forum.warthu...munity-project/

Gun Stats: ...28/541,54/1078,64/1270,74/1476,97/1921

Naval/coastal guns...8/155

Rockets: Belmodo 100mm anti-tank (1943)...280/5589

Samaja rocket...287,288

Semovente M-584 AA missile system...382

Semi auto - auto breech loaded guns: ...38/741,119/2380,121/2420,122/2423

Shells (artillery and tank)...4/80,5/82,5/83,8/154,8/155,98/151-160,99/1974,122/2430,174/3461,181/3608-3609,186/3716-3717,206/4103,237/4734,237/4736,243/4849,350,356
Shell weight ...99/1974

Trench mortars...288
Wheel pads...4/75

Italian Tank Battles and History:

Fiat 2000 sent to the Carso Front for trials(WWI)...294/5866

Fiat 2000 in Libya ...36/710,40/786,246/4908

Fiat 3000 in Libya...208/4142

French tanks sent to the Carso Front for trials(WWI)...196/3904,232/4636,244/4873,254/5079

Google Earth battlefields of North Africa and the Med ...41/804

Italian tanks during Italian campaign...251/5002

Semovente 47/32 at Lentini, Sicily 14th July 1943...306/6119

http://forum.worldof...61#entry8284261

Semovente 90s and the 45th INF. DIV in Sicily (unconfirmed)...328

Semovente 90/53 article Italy's Big Guns...355,359

Sicily: Counter attacks at Gela...317/6338

http://forum.worldof...07#entry8546207

Sicily: The Path of the Semovente 90/53 ...page 5

Tank battles of the M11/39...page 7

M11/39's first tank battle, Aug. 5th, 1940: ...30/583

M11/39 used in the liberation of Piedmont...246/4914

​M15/42 (combat report)...127

http://forum.worldof...55#entry5171755

P.26/40 by Gustav1985...199/3961-3964

Panzers in the Ozak:

http://www.panzer-ozak.it/newinfo_eng.htm

Tank battles of the M13/40 ...pages 4 and 5

http://forum.worldof...s-of-the-m1340/

FTR version: http://ftr.wot-news....0-italian-tank/

Tank battle of 30 May 1942(Cauldron)...326/6506

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__6500__pid__8775662#entry8775662

Tunisia: The End in North Africa...page 5

Italian Tank Battles and Vehicles ​(Cold War to Present):

 Battle of Negba (Israel and Egypt: http://ftr.wot-news....ba-israel-1948/

 Palmaria in Libya...372-73,377

 Somalia: Checkpoint Pasta...365

Captured and foreign tanks: 1,3,4,13,39,122,180,348

Italian tanks in foreign service...280/5582,369,370,379

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5580__pid__7716635#entry7716635


Edited by rivit, Jun 11 2017 - 19:47.


rivit #23 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 22:38

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Italian SPGs:

Ariane prototype...359

Ariane spg...330/6582

Cingolato Guzzi 65/17(1930)...261/5206,263(Pignato's list)

CV3 Brixia ...1/5,12/228,12/230
FT-17(Fiat 3000) 105/14(rear facing) ...1/5,3/52,259/5177

FT-17 105 (turret mounted)...287/5728

Moto Guzzi L3 75/17...1,99/1973-99/1979,117/2322,223/4455

M109 modified with FH-70...307/6130

M113 (OTO) SPG...365

Palmaria ...372-73,377

San Carlos SPG...382

St.Chamond wheel-cum-track  75/27... 258 /5148

Semovente 105/34...311/6218

Semovente 149/12,13 on M42 ...52/1022,90/1798,91/1803,230/4597,237

Semovente 149/19 on M42 ...34/674,90/1798,91/1803
Semovente 149/40 ...1/5,3/52,34/674,38/742

Sexton 105 (I) ...3/52,12/221,34/672,34/673

SP.70 ...122/2439,140/2791,140/2792,192/3825-27,192/3831,199/3966,221/4406,224/4472

Italian Tanks

Ansaldo's (Testuggine) ...1/5,16/307,16/314

Ansaldo 70 ton or 70/32...233/4656,335

C13...382
Carro Armato 8 (CA 8)...1/1,190/3795-97,238/4752

Carro di Assaulto Modello 36 5ton...207/4135,208/4142,238/4752,306
CV 33/35 or L3 ...1/6,9/180,12/221,35/693

CV.3 Rossini...314,362

CV3 w/24mm frontal armor...324/6464

CV prototype (new suspension)...258/5147

CMC/42 ...44/869,179/3569,241
Fiat 2000 M.17 and M.34 ...1/5,1/7,8/144,36/710,36/715,40/786,206/4119,352

Fiat 2000 with 14mm cannon...339,340
Fiat 3000 A and B L5/21 ...1/3,9/180,41/812
Fiat 3000 Double Barreled Cannons/MGs ...9/180,101/2009,101/2011

Fiat 3000 Tipo B (Hvy) ... 261/5206, 287/5725

FINABEL designs (unsourced, possible hoax)...383

Foster tank (Ansaldo 12t)...322/6430

Geroges Giacomini Tank(1956)...297/5928,297/5930,298/5950,315/6284
GL-1(32 ton similar to 71 ton)...34/672,335
GL-2 or GL-E1 700 ton with two heavy guns...37/724,242,335
Gl-3 71 ton with 107mm...36/705,335
GL-4 ...1/5,8/143,8/144,15/292,36/711,37/724,189/3775,190/3782,335,337
Gondar tanks (Culqueber and Volchefit) ...10/200,11/206,296/5901

Gussali  walking tank(1917)...206/4104,255/5091
L/5 Light Tank...1/3
L6/40 ...1/3,371

L6 prototypes w/ hull and turret mounted 37/26 ...101/2007,117/2322,238/4752
L6 da 37/26 Senza Torreta or L6 da 37/26 ST ...101/2007,117/2322,238/4752 

Leopard W/ 35mm AA gun...253/5044

Leopard W/ 40mm Bofors AA gun (Prototipo Semovente 40/70)...319,375

Leopardino/OF-40...373
Magrini (Fortino Mobile Tipo Pesante, Ansaldo Magrini Mangiapan) ...1/7,16/307,37/724,206/4108,254/5064,381

M11/39 ...1/4,41/813,208/4149
M11/39 prototipo ...41/813,44/873,208/4149,238/4752,373,374(37mm turret)
M13/40 ...1/4,9/165,41/816, 209/4164

M.13/40 early pattern tank hull​...375

M.13/40 prototype ...341
M14/41...1/4,9/165,41/817

M14/41 with 47/40 (prototype)...175/3486
M15/42...1/4,9/165,42/822
M15/42 Quadrupolo AAA ...12/237, 38/754
M47s w/ Italianized guns and engines (90 and 105mm) ...2/32,86/1703,86/1715,376
MBT-70/Kpz-70 (Italian autoloader)...328/6551-53,329,336

MBT-80 IFV Contender...343

OF-24 Tifone (OTO Melara MOWAG Taifun Scorpion turret)...237/4738-40,238/4747-48,307/6130-6133,343

OF-30 Light tank or X-30 (CIA)...382

OF-40 IFV BMP-3 turret (modern)...382
OF-40/Leopardino/Lion...7/121,191/3802,199/3966,314/6269,317/6324,382

OTO 60/70 HVMS turrets...379, 382

OTO Centauro (European standard prototype w/ automatic loader)...160/3194,161/3206,336
OTO Malera 1980 MBT concept...34/674,343

P26/40 ...9/165,12/233,228/4546,376
P26/40bis ...113/2252,113/2254,113/2255,113/2259,115/2290,221/4411

P40 bis, P43, & P.43bis proposed guns; 75/34,105/23, 90/42,90/44,90/71...221/4411,307/6130,325,328,380
P32 or P75...37/724
P43 ...7/126,12/233,39/778,190/3792,210,221/4411, 307/6128
P43bis w/ 90/42, 90/44, 90/71, and 105/25...7/126,39/778,126/2507,126/2508,126/2510,175/3499,190/3792,196,207/4129,221/4410,325,380

P43M...141,142,146 EU forum, Italian tech tree

P71...1/1,37/724,61/1214,114/2270
P75 prototypes and variants(90mm version) ...1/5,208/4052,208/4160,209/4161-62,239/4773

P.75 or P.90 with 90mm and 40- 50 kmh projected speed...239/4773

Partisan tank...341
Pavesi Autocarro Tagliafili (tracked wire cutting machine)...1/5,29/565,253/5054,260

Pignato's Italian armor vehicles of WWII (lists 206mm pen on pg.48.)

http://www.scribd.co...f-World-War-Two

Pignato's list of vehicle projects(Zarax)...263/5253,263/5255,264(Complete list)

http://s9.photobucke...o?sort=3&page=1

Prototipo Semovente 40/70...319/6373-74

Sahariano or M16/43...1/4,,1/7,6/111,33/655,38/742,241,336/6716.383

Studio Sahariano...336/6716,337

Italian TDs:
Carro Di Rottura:

 Ansaldo M.12/34, Ansaldo M.12/34 C.A. 32 ...1/6,12/236,38/742,41/813,190/3797,238/4752
 Armato 9t M32...38/742,197/3939,238/4752
CV 33/35 cc 20mm Breda ...1/6,102/2038,372

L3 da 47/32...1/6,36/715,201/4001,207/4121
L6 da 47/32...1/6,12/231,12/238,330/6596,370,380(Chassis), 382(6 pounder)

L6  top -mount 47/32 gun​...328

M.6 da 75...1/6,208/4142,208/4158,351

OTOMATIC prototype (AA)...375
Semoventi:

90/53 CA (wooden mock-up)...285/5694,307

90/53(possible turret)...307/6128

​100mm high velocity...382

Cannone d' assualto 100mm (1973?)...263,382
M40 da 75/18 ...1/6,9/165,33/653,42/839
M41 da 75/32 ...1/6
M41M da 90/53 ...1/6,8/156,33/653,35/684,42/836,122/2429

M41M da  90/53 smaller gun shield (prototype)...179/3580,185/3691

M42M da 75/34 ...1/6,44/873

M42 da 90/53 ...359

M42M da 105/25 ...42/837,44/873,190/3800,228/4546
M43M da 75/46 ...1/6,42/838

M.43T da 105/25 ...42/837,44/873,190/3800,228/4546
(O) OTO Bassotto welded with 105/23 gun...34/672,34/680,99/1966,228/4546

(A) Ansaldo Bassotto ...1/6,9/165,34/672,34/680,99/1966,190/3800,228/4546

Bassotto gun variants...228/4546

P26/40 (TD) w/ 90/53...42/836,185/3691,292/5825.359

P.43 TD w/ 90/42...173/3454

Semovente 90/53 on M.42 hull(wooden mock- up)...234

Semovente 120/44 and alternate 90/53...263/5253,285/5694,307/6128,359,383

Studio Semovente 90/53...355,359
Continued on post 28,34,40


Edited by rivit, May 09 2017 - 19:47.


Vollketten #24 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:00

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Sources Page 2:

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 


Edited by Vollketten, Feb 26 2014 - 21:32.


Vollketten #25 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:03

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View Postrivit, on Jan 21 2013 - 15:36, said:


WOW, you've shown me new Italian tanks I've never seen before . Pavesi-Tolotti modello 1915? Thats new to me. There's about 4 or 5 others I've never heard of. You even have sources. Your my new forum hero.


I may have the name of that and many others wrong but information is scarce and I don't speak Italian.
The Pavessi Tolotti would be intersting as it looks like it would have frontal spaced armour. the double turret thing would be difficult to model though in game.


Larger image of my modelling.

 
those vertical spiky things were clearly some kind of wire cutter.
this is the only known photograph:
Spoiler

Edited by Vollketten, Feb 21 2014 - 15:36.


Vollketten #26 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:05

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View PostOkinoshima, on Jan 21 2013 - 22:23, said:

While officially the first completely Italian built Patton was the M60 OTO Melera have several projects on modifying the M47, including arming it with an L7. There's a picture of it on SilentStalkers European Q&A page, I'd post a link myself but i'm a bit tied up right now.
M47 in Italian Service post war.(well within WoT time frame)
Spoiler                     


lostwingman #27 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:08

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:00, said:

Well its not like there aren't a million Stuart or T-54 clones either.

Whats wrong with the heavies?
Some funky looking beasts but certainly 'real' enough for WoT given the penchant for total invention of many nations vehicles.

I'm not sure if I've already shown my disdain for the lower tier Chinese tree or not but the closest one to actually being acceptable to me is the Chi-Ha funnily enough. The Japanese had a plant in Manchuria producing them and apparently the gun characteristics of the Type 1 47mm the 'Chinese Ha' uses is more related to the AT gun and not the Tank gun. I COULD give a pass to that and the later tier tanks that are ofc heavily influenced by Soviet designs, but still have Chinese quirks. With something like the M47 in in the Italian tree or M5 Stuart in the Chinese tree (among other low tiers there) they were built by someone else and sold to them. That just doesn't sit well to me.

Also, millions of T-54 and Stuart clones? Outside of the American tree there is the one premium LL one and the LL one in the Chinese tree. For the T-54, you might as well just say then that Soviet tank development stagnated after the 40s into T-54 clones....

About the heavies, I don't have anything against the heavies, but I don't know anything about them. Actually looking at them....extreme skepticism of the P.45bis aside, those two under it are not end tier material...

View PostVollketten, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:05, said:

M47 in Italian Service post war.(well within WoT time frame)
Spoiler                     

T-55 in East German service, Germany should get T-55 right?

Posted Image

Edited by lostwingman, Jan 21 2013 - 23:11.


rivit #28 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:08

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(Index cont.)

More tanks:
1.5 ton Moto mitragliatrice (MIAS &MORAS) ...38/760, 50/988- 50/992,208/4146

B1 bis Semovente ...258/5158 

British TV1000 project with Italian track & suspension​...252,381

Engineering/support vehicles: 

-All types...237/4723

-Flame tanks L3/33 (lf) and L6/40 ...125/2488,135/2685,258/5155,259/5163,259/5176

-L3 chemical weapons tank...159/3174

-L3 demolition tank (radio controlled)...238/4751

-List of AA tanks...332,382,375,316,382

-M14/41 w/ mine plow...206/4114

-M13/40 air transportable...206

 M109L (I) American spg...51/1014,52/1033,121/2415,192/3823

M13/18 Schneider ...28/551,28/553
M13/40 artillery observation vehicle(fake gun) ...34/672
M15/42 w/ pz 38t turret ... 23/442
M16/41 or T-21 ...1/1,28/544,28/547
M19/32 ...81/1619

​Marconi fire control turrets and patents?...374

Semovente da 40 sul scafo M41...331/6619

Sidam-25...316,382

Italian cold war tanks and spgs ...121/2415,121/2418,165/3281(list),191/3802,231/4619,245/4893,253,297,328/6551,382
Italian modern tanks and spgs...157/3138,157/3140,224/4476,225/4496,245/4887,349,350,351,382

Unknown Italian tanks:

​Armored car turret...371

Cingoletta 76.2mm...31/608,34/675,224/4470,226/4520,227/4521

Mobile 90/53 (1953)...382

Monaco mystery tank (stamp)...46/908
Autofortezza and others(Solved) ...13/251, 259/5175,382

Sahariano M16,TD,SPG...33/656,34/662,34/677,34/680

Sahariano M16 SPG ...221/4411

Semovente CV? ...328,381

Semovente 203/25(typo filled Canadian report)...334/6674

Semovente prototypes of Colonel Berlese ...28/551

Torpodino heavy tank (French)...247/4924,299/5969

William and Foster's Italian tank (Solved)...8/157

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/07/12/william-fosters-italian-tank/

continued on posts 34,40


Edited by rivit, Mar 08 2017 - 06:41.


Vollketten #29 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:17

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View Postlostwingman, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:08, said:

I'm not sure if I've already shown my disdain for the lower tier Chinese tree --- I hate it too.

or not but the closest one to actually being acceptable to me is the Chi-Ha funnily enough. The Japanese had a plant in Manchuria producing them and apparently the gun characteristics of the Type 1 47mm the 'Chinese Ha' uses is more related to the AT gun and not the Tank gun. I COULD give a pass to that and the later tier tanks that are ofc heavily influenced by Soviet designs, but still have Chinese quirks. With something like the M47 in in the Italian tree or M5 Stuart in the Chinese tree (among other low tiers there) they were built by someone else and sold to them. That just doesn't sit well to me. - The Italian built M47 by Otot Melara had some small cosmetic differrences apparently and different engine later.

Also, millions of T-54 and Stuart clones? Outside of the American tree there is the one premium LL one and the LL one in the Chinese tree. For the T-54, you might as well just say then that Soviet tank development stagnated after the 40s into T-54 clones....

About the heavies, I don't have anything against the heavies, but I don't know anything about them. Actually looking at them....extreme skepticism of the P.45bis aside, those two under it are not end tier material... the P43 bis is tricky.

T-55 in East German service, Germany should get T-55 right?-definately not. Too many post war soviet knock-offs already

Aside from the P43 bis, which was only ever a paperweight / concept when Italy capitualted in 1943:
Spoiler                     
looks like a wooden model photgraphed and not an actual tank.

Given that the 'flavour' of italian tanks is relatvely poor armour for their tier and era equivalents I thought it was a decent reflection of reality. There are numerous hard and soft methods of balancing which can be employed and the dreadful grind would be balanced by the nice little Europanzer at the end.

Vollketten #30 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:21

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deleted

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Vollketten, Mar 31 2014 - 03:13.


Vollketten #31 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:27

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:03, said:

I may have the name of that and many others wrong but information is scarce and I don't speak Italian.

The Pavessi Tolotti would be intersting as it looks like it would have frontal spaced armour. the double turret thing would be difficult to model though in game.
Larger image of my modelling.

Correction, name should read: Cassali-Pavesi. After the Designer: Captain Luigi Cassali

lostwingman #32 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:28

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I thought that image was of a steel model. I think that is a P43...or P40....I can't remember.

I guess the M47 thing could work if it has a unique designation or name other than "M47" like the damn Chi-Ha in the Chinese Tree. I just really want to avoid some of the things that happen in the Chinese low tiers where basically nothing is indigenous. That kind of thing should be kept to premiums.

Also wait a minute, the Europanzer? You have that as being from the AMX 30 project no? What about the European tree itself?

Vollketten #33 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:32

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View Postlostwingman, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:28, said:

I thought that image was of a steel model. I think that is a P43...or P40....I can't remember.

I guess the M47 thing could work if it has a unique designation or name other than "M47" like the damn Chi-Ha in the Chinese Tree. I just really want to avoid some of the things that happen in the Chinese low tiers where basically nothing is indigenous. That kind of thing should be kept to premiums.

Also wait a minute, the Europanzer? You have that as being from the AMX 30 project no? What about the European tree itself?
As I understand it, there were multiple varaitions of a Europanzer design with france producing at least 5 examples and the Italians being aligned more with the French concept of vehicles. The Germans will get the outcome of the Europanzer in the form of the Leopard. The French already have the AMX50 series and prototype AMX30 to choose from.

Italy entered the project in 1955 and it wasn't until after the whole Europanzer concept fell apart that the French then used the tech to develop the AMX 30. The Europanzer is ripe for the Italian tree to take.

Edited by Vollketten, Jan 21 2013 - 23:33.


rivit #34 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:33

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Index cont.


Designers, Engineers & Patents:
Ansaldo... 33/654, 33/657, 33/658, 35/689
Arnold Henry Savage Lando ...34/671

Capitano Carlo Ederle...259

Carlo Pomilio's Tank wheel(1918)...257/5140

Capt. Furruccio Garbari...239/4773,239/4775-76

​Composite armor(patent)...34
Fossati ...41/810

Giovanni Bonmartini, Count...252/5023
Guiseppi Rosini or Rossini(Ansaldo) ...41/810,41/814,362,314

Guzzi team of Moto Guzzi (sul Lario Mandello, CO): first by Mr Picucci, then by Mr Soldavini, engineer, and Giulio Cesare Carcano...239,264,277

​List of vehicles...264

Longobardi, Felix and Signori (Auto fortezza)...259
Mangrini ...34/667

​Marconi Patents...374

Patents...4/75,34/669,34/671,174/3461-62,224/4476,258/5145,374(Marconi)
Pavesi ...33/654, 33/657, 33/658, 34/669, 35/689,189/3762

Sauteiron armoured car of August 1912...258
Turritelli ...34/667

Wheel pad patent...4/75

Engines

 Italian aircraft engines used in tanks ...62/1232

Italian engines ...59/1177,207/4135,208/4142,209/4165-68,295/5896,345(MCC),354(Fiat2000),377

Italian tractors...206
Fiat AS.6 engine 2500-3100 hp ...55/1100,56/1105

P26/40 engines...295/5896, 341(aero engine)

P.43 bis 700 hp engine ...126/2507,189/3762,207/4125,295/5896

continued on post 40


Edited by rivit, Mar 08 2017 - 06:54.


Vollketten #35 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:35

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View Postlostwingman, on Jan 21 2013 - 16:28, said:


I thought that image was of a steel model. I think that is a P43...or P40....I can't remember.
I guess the M47 thing could work if it has a unique designation or name other than "M47" like the damn Chi-Ha in the Chinese Tree. I just really want to avoid some of the things that happen in the Chinese low tiers where basically nothing is indigenous. That kind of thing should be kept to premiums.
Also wait a minute, the Europanzer? You have that as being from the AMX 30 project no? What about the European tree itself?

I agree massively with what you are saying and I thought long and hard before doing this to try and avoid just 'borrowing' non-indigenous vehicles. The Italians also used R35 and H35 Renault tanks as well and some captured vehicles like Churchill, Valentine and T-34/76 but there are very few (certainly compared to the Chinese tree) of non-Italian tanks.

Edited by Vollketten, Feb 21 2014 - 21:55.


lostwingman #36 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:36

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:32, said:

As I understand it, there were multiple varaitions of a Europanzer design with france producing at least 5 examples and the Italians being aligned more with the French concept of vehicles. The Germans will get the outcome of the Europanzer in the form of the Leopard. The French already have the AMX50 series and prototype AMX30 to choose from.

Italy entered the project in 1955 and it wasn't until after the whole Europanzer concept fell apart that the French then used the tech to develop the AMX 30. The Europanzer is ripe for the Italian tree to take.
I'm extremely skeptical of that. Unfortunately the only book I have on that goes in depth on the Leopard, not the AMX 30 or Europanzer. I can't imagine the Europanzer being any different from the AMX 30. I think you're going to need to include in your posts your rationale for a lot of these controversial tanks.

Okinoshima #37 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:36

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(argghh I hate using the internet on trains you pay extra for it and it still sucks!!) The P43bis had a wooden scale mockup made and that is it, the P43 got a metal mock up and the P40 entered service... with the Germans. The Europanzer project is a legitimate 'Italian' project... in that they funded it, it was, afterall a joint French/German/Italian project that eventually ended up with the AMX30 and Leopard 1.

Vollketten #38 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:36

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View Postrivit, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:33, said:

I forgot it might go in the Euro tree. The rumors change so often I have a hard time keeping up.
that whole pan-euro tree thing just sounds so bad, mixing nationalities in random vehicles. Polish crews in Hungarian tanks and Swedish crews in Polish tanks strikes me as killing the last semblence of reality this game has.

Vollketten #39 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:38

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Right I spent all day posting this lot. (sorry for the delay in getting it up there chaps). Imgur kept crashing on me. Time to go home.

I hope I have given us something to think about. I will expand on all those vehicles with my rationale as soon as I can. Thank you for the input folks.

rivit #40 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:39

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MISC... pg/post

...............................................................................................................

Archives... 207,208,209,215,228,230,231,232,234,237,238,239,241,245,253,254,280,282,293,350,352,353,357,381

Armored cars, half tracks, motorcycles and multi wheels...33,35,200/3987,203/4050-4052,206,209,210/4011-4020,232,233,372

Armor diagrams:
-CV 33/35 ...146/2902

-M13/40 ...62/1224

-Semovente M41M da 90/53 ...144/2878

British reports on Italian weapons(M11/39 and M13/40) and other weapons...339,340,341,342,343

Camouflage patterns, decals, and insignias: ...26/518, 26/520, 27/525 - 27/531,291,316,321,350,352,353,354,378,380,381,380

Count Alfredo Bennicelli (proponent for armor)...196/3904

Comments about captured Italian guns...271

E.P. field tests for 75/34 and 100mm...219/4375,219/4377,220/4390

E.P. for the 75/34...177/3533

E.P. calculation for 75/34

EPS penetration (Nicola Pignato)...181/3610-3611
German combat reports of the Semovente 105/25, 75/34,75/46 ...127/2535

Gustav1985 photo collection(P26/40 and prototypes)...199/3961

Italian range-finding...325/6500,326/6502

Italian steel production and quality...19/373,94/1871,234/4665,286/5703,381,382
Italian tanker and gunner medal recipients...49/970,150/2981,150/2984,153/3046-3050,157/3139,158/3160,159/3162,165/3285,186/3705

M11/39's armor (British report)...340,381
M13/40 shatter effect (photos) ...41/809,158/3147-3152,209/4164-65,233/4643,247/4933,296/5908,367,382
M13/40-M14/41 other photos ...41/807,41/809

M.42 75/18 .....138/2743,138/2751
Mechanical reliability/abandonment rate of the M13/40-M14/41...150/2995,209/4165,220/4398

MEI project...382

Military projects during Italo-Turkish War (1912)...258,259 
Model of the Semovente 149/40 ...91/1801

Officine Galileo Museum...382

Oil & fuels (consumables)...381

P43 bis frontal armor(slope)...296/5915,298/5957-59

Plates (Italian number plates)of armor vehicles and date of introduction ...52/1033,215/4289

Production numbers (armor)...209/4178,226/4504,230/4597,231/4603,237/4730

Production numbers (guns)...338

Radios: (tanks and vehicles)...12/227,188/3751,208/4143,234/4664-65,241/4811,291,292,336

Research templates for in game Italian vehicles...174/3477,176/3504,178/3550,196/3915
Riveted and bolted armor...139/2763-2768
Sloped armor calculator ...127/2539

Semovente 75/18 frontal armor BNH (Brinnel hardness) of 270...234/4665

Semovente 90/53 road speed (prototype and production)...220/4399,240/4792

Small Arms:

-British bullets...369

-Bullets...377

-Franchi LF58...306

-M.37 Breda HMG...370

-M.30 Breda...368

-Rifles...368

-Ultra light magnesium alloy bodied machine gun from 1931...306 

-Villar Perosa...377

Summary of tank data...254/5068

...............................................................................................................................................

Video, Books, Museums & Links:

A Military History of Italy, by C. Paoletti...1/14

CIA archives...382

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA

DTIC link(explosives starting on I-133):

http://www.dtic.mil/...tions/ADA019502

Fighting Tanks by 1916 by Icks...

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__6720__pid__9173351#entry9173351

Field Artillery Journal, November 1945, Vol.35, No.11,  Lt. Col.G.B. Jarretti , Italian Artillery:

http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/1945/NOV_1945/NOV_1945_FULL_EDITION.pdf

Giebel, A., Iron Coffins-Italian Medium Tanks M13 and M14, Museum Ordnance Special No. 2:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/152904260/Geibel-A-1994-Iron-Coffins-Italian-Medium-Tanks-M13-and-M14-Museum-Ordnance-Special-No-2

Handbook on Italian military forces (English)...159/3174

The History of Shaped Charge Effect: The first 100 years by Donald R Kennedy.http://www.google.co...kJPL1pY9f3jnm_w

HeartsPhilip Chaplain,The battle of Serafimovich:  evaluation of 75/27,75/32,100/17, and 105/32 guns vs T-34 and BT tanks... 243/4853

Hesh discussion(link)...177/3535,202/4036

Hitler's Italian Allies. Knox,M...35/698

Italian And French  Explosive Ordnance:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/pdfs/TM9-1985-6-Italy.pdf

Iron Arm, The Mechanization of Mussolini's Army 1920-1940. Sweet,J.J.T...1/14

Iron Hulls Iron by Ian Walker:

https://books.google... Africa&f=false

Italian companies & history of mergers ...171/3402

Italian Wiki: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/OF-40

Italy in WWI (link) http://www.worldwar1...front/index.htm

Italian Medium Tanks 1939-45, Osprey New Vanguard No.195 by Cappellano, F. and Battistelli:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/135091545/Cappellano-F-and-Battistelli-PP-2012-Italian-Medium-Tanks-1939-45-Osprey-New-Vanguard-No-195

Italian vehicles and artillery website (Italian) ...12/235

Link to the Italian EU forums:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/58883-albero-tecnologico-italiano/page__pid__7532730__st__1660#entry7532730

OTO Melera Museum...237/4738

Overlord Blog: http://overlord-wot.blogspot.com/2015/03/tiger-gets-bird.html

Q & A with the Developers:...8/142,10/190,11/210,12/223,18/343,29/569,37/7331,105/2087,108/2158,113/2251,116/2320,125/2494,125/2499,212/4225,281,280,

335(Ansaldo Heavies),336 Italians are coming.354,355,379,382 (WOWS)

Societa Italiana di Storia Militare Quaderno, 1999 (Italian)...1/14

Tank museums in Italy...9/179,12/221

Theory and Designs of Recoil Systems and Gun Carriages...160/3181

Videos:
Ariete Arm. Div. 1972 ...18/359
Bersaglieri dodging Chaffee (nuts) ...18/359
CV 33/35s in Abyssinia ...9/180
Centauro Arm Div 1942 parade ...19/362,197/3928

Fiat 2000 tested(motion video)...299/5973

http://www.iwm.org.u...bt=europeanaapi
Fiat 3000 and Flame tanks CV33/35 (lf) torching stuff ...9/180
Fiat 3000 Twin cannons in Abyssinia ...9/180
Fiat 3000B obstacle dropoff & rollover ...19/366
Italian Tank factory ...19/362
Other tank videos ...96/1901,96/1915,96/1916,150/2986-87,,328,339,378,381

Propaganda videos...197/3928
Semovente (briefly) ...19/361

Semovente 90/53 in Sicily...

http://www.britishpa...query/italy gun

Vehicle and gun comparisons:

Accuracy comparison and APHE performance, 47/32 and 2 pounder...336
Fiat 3000-Ltractor ...19/376
L3 Brixia-T-57 ...20/388
L6-BT2 ...20/386
Pavessi-Ltractor ...19/380
page 21...21/402-21/418
Sahariano-Crusader...24/469
Semovente 75/34 vs Teir 6 (hollow charges)...73/1449,377
Semovente 75/34 vs Tier 7 (hollow charges)...97/1921,377
90 mm Ansaldo M41 L/53 vs Tier 9(my comparison) ...75/1497,85/1696
90/53 and 88s Flak 19, 36, 41 and L56( my comparison)...145/2883,2884

90/53 vs 88mm and 3.7"...322/6427  http://forum.worldof...69#entry8640869

Vollketten's (and other's) 3d Renderings:

​Autofortezza...371

GL-4 ...19/369,18/355
Magrini ...18/352,361,364
Pavessi ...20/381
L.3/33 mortar carrier...25/486-87,25/496
Sahariano M16 TD or SPG...33/656,34/662,34/677
P.43 bis ...123/2442
P.75 or P.32...38/755

Geroges Giacomini tank patent (1956)...298


Edited by rivit, Mar 08 2017 - 06:56.





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