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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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lostwingman #41 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:40

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View PostOkinoshima, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:36, said:

(argghh I hate using the internet on trains you pay extra for it and it still sucks!!) The P43bis had a wooden scale mockup made and that is it, the P43 got a metal mock up and the P40 entered service... with the Germans. The Europanzer project is a legitimate 'Italian' project... in that they funded it, it was, afterall a joint French/German/Italian project that eventually ended up with the AMX30 and Leopard 1.
Isn't that like saying the F-35 is a legitimate Canadian and Japanese project? All the Italians really did IIRC was promise to buy some and put some money in the pot.

View PostVollketten, on Jan 21 2013 - 23:36, said:

that whole pan-euro tree thing just sounds so bad, mixing nationalities in random vehicles. Polish crews in Hungarian tanks and Swedish crews in Polish tanks strikes me as killing the last semblence of reality this game has.
Yea I have no idea how they plan on doing that. Probably by having you change the crews nationality from tank to tank but keeping the crew skill levels.

Vollketten #42 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:42

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 21:59.


lostwingman #43 Posted Jan 21 2013 - 23:45

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Ermm...that would be part of changing "crew nationality" from tank to tank....put keeping crew skill levels. If that were possible (and I think it is) then that is what I think they will do. Have "Hungarian names and crew portraits" tied to "Hungarian tanks" and etc etc and when you retrain the crew for X tank on that line the crew name and portrait are changed to randomized nationality that X tank is.

rivit #44 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 00:03

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Edited by rivit, Feb 21 2017 - 09:18.


lostwingman #45 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 00:57

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View Postrivit, on Jan 22 2013 - 00:03, said:

I thought for the Europanzer Italy submitted two proposals out of twelve, but only the two German prototypes were ready by completion date. I also thought they funded and managed French design teams after the Europanzer project fell through in what became the AMX. I could be wrong. Its been awhile since I looked it up.
Italy did nothing, Germany had 4 prototypes, a 5th bailed out in Group C's proposal. France had a few that culminated in the AMX 30. The Europanzer project could be said to be the joint French and German attempts but really, they were isolated to each other. I know of virtually nothing the Germans took from the French and vice versa. The only thing they did was compete against each other really. I have seen no mention ever of Italy doing anything anymore substantive than financial backing.

Vollketten #46 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 01:04

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 22:00.


Vollketten #47 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 01:06

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 22:00.


lostwingman #48 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 01:16

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 22 2013 - 01:04, said:

Which would go to pot when people spend gold on changing crew names.
These things can be worked out I think.

View PostVollketten, on Jan 22 2013 - 01:06, said:

Well of the three countries invlved, Fance and Germany dont need it so do we give it to the Romanians or something? Italy has the most need and a solid claim.
But the Europanzer is either an AMX-30 (or design predecessor) or a Leopard (or design predecessor). If there was an actual joint project between the two countires that had something different then sure, but at this points it's just the F-35 comparison.

Vollketten #49 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 02:36

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 22:00.


lostwingman #50 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 02:41

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 22 2013 - 02:36, said:

Is that the only vehicle which is contentious?
Anything derived from another nation like the M47 or the Europanzer need some addressing on how you will make them Italianized( I almost wrote Italicized, no idea what the word there is) and some of the questionable tier fittings like your tier X heavy. Which while being an interesting and unique looking tank, I cannot take seriously as a tier X.

Vollketten #51 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 04:44

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 22:00.


Vollketten #52 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 05:20

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Edited by Vollketten, Mar 11 2014 - 20:13.


Vollketten #53 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 05:36

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Edited by Vollketten, Mar 11 2014 - 20:14.


Okinoshima #54 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 06:15

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Great research Volketten, I'd love to post more but my crappy hotel only has internet in the lobby and the hotel bar only has overpriced piss-water...

On the European forums there is a great thread on unique, Italian modified M47s that will hopefully prove useful to you

http://forum.worldof...upgrade-of-m47/

On the issue of the Europanzer, I can see where lostwingman is coming from, objectively speaking, Italy contributed little to the Europanzer project. But we have to consider, if Italy doesn't get the Europanzer project? What happens to these wonderful designs? Realistically, the likelihood of either Germany or France getting these tank designs in their own tech tree is unlikely. Id not in an Italian tech tree, it would be a waste of a design. I think that the Europanzer is better off with an Italian tech tree than none at all.

Secondly is the issue of the existence of an Italian tech tree at all. My main problem with a 'European tech tree with Italy' is that historically Italy is missing the all important 'Czech connection' that more or less all other smaller, European tank producing countries had, from Sweden, to Hungary, to Poland to Romania and beyond. the nucleus of these c ountry's tank development were Czechoslovakian export tanks of the 30s and there is a very clear lineage to follow with these tanks, Something that the Italians are not part of, their tank development was self-contained until 1943 and there is no way you could really intertwine Italian tanks with the rest of Europe beyond say... Spain.

Lastly on the tree itself, I'm not sure you could make the Sahariano tank a tier 7, the Sahariano was a direct response to the British Crusader tank, borrowing heavily from it's design as best the Italians could, I think tier 7 is VERY charitable for a tank that was only a tonne heavier than the M15/42 to extrapolate any armour value from. The Sahariano project should be seen as a contemporary to the P40 rather than something distinctly better. Afterall the project was cancelled in favour of the P40. Something to take into consideration was Italian plans to build and improved Sahariano with a 75mm gun.

Vollketten #55 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 07:43

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Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 22:00.


Okinoshima #56 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 08:32

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Yes, I can see you have the Sahariano prototype (the proper designation for the prototype is the Carro Armato Super Celere) based on a modified M14/41 chassis as a premium. My main concern is that the Sahariano simply does not have the armour or firepower to be placed in the same category with the Panther, Comet or T-43 which would be it's peers. The tiering for the heavy line is a bit erratic as well, the P26/40 had very similar numbers to the M4 Sherman (although the P26 was a much lighter vehicle than t he M4) and the P43bis was basically a riveted Italian Panther clone, putting it in anything other than tier 7 would be difficult. Also could you provide more information the P.45, let alone the 'bis' variant?

lostwingman #57 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 15:33

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View PostOkinoshima, on Jan 22 2013 - 06:15, said:

Great research Volketten, I'd love to post more but my crappy hotel only has internet in the lobby and the hotel bar only has overpriced piss-water...

On the European forums there is a great thread on unique, Italian modified M47s that will hopefully prove useful to you

http://forum.worldof...upgrade-of-m47/

On the issue of the Europanzer, I can see where lostwingman is coming from, objectively speaking, Italy contributed little to the Europanzer project. But we have to consider, if Italy doesn't get the Europanzer project? What happens to these wonderful designs? Realistically, the likelihood of either Germany or France getting these tank designs in their own tech tree is unlikely. Id not in an Italian tech tree, it would be a waste of a design. I think that the Europanzer is better off with an Italian tech tree than none at all.

Secondly is the issue of the existence of an Italian tech tree at all. My main problem with a 'European tech tree with Italy' is that historically Italy is missing the all important 'Czech connection' that more or less all other smaller, European tank producing countries had, from Sweden, to Hungary, to Poland to Romania and beyond. the nucleus of these c ountry's tank development were Czechoslovakian export tanks of the 30s and there is a very clear lineage to follow with these tanks, Something that the Italians are not part of, their tank development was self-contained until 1943 and there is no way you could really intertwine Italian tanks with the rest of Europe beyond say... Spain.

Lastly on the tree itself, I'm not sure you could make the Sahariano tank a tier 7, the Sahariano was a direct response to the British Crusader tank, borrowing heavily from it's design as best the Italians could, I think tier 7 is VERY charitable for a tank that was only a tonne heavier than the M15/42 to extrapolate any armour value from. The Sahariano project should be seen as a contemporary to the P40 rather than something distinctly better. Afterall the project was cancelled in favour of the P40. Something to take into consideration was Italian plans to build and improved Sahariano with a 75mm gun.
You're not getting it....there were NO joint designs. It was either the French design or the German design. That's it. There was no "Europanzer" except the ideal goal that both sides would eventually work together and they both would end up using the same vehicle. That did not happen. That isn't even close to what ended up happening as after both sides (French and German) developed their individual vehicles, they just tested them against each other and just went back to developing on their own and at the most testing against one another, which at the least the Germans also did with the British. Stop trying to make up a tank and saying it's real. It wasn't. There was no Europanzer.

lostwingman #58 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 15:35

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Also Volketten the devs have apparently nixed the idea of the Japanese 305mm mortar coming into the game so that might mean they are not going to use any +30cm guns.

lostwingman #59 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 15:37

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 22 2013 - 04:44, said:

Original image: (looks like a photograph of a wooden mockup and appears to have double guns. One source said 700 tnnes and another said 70 tonnes. I put it at 100 tonnes.
Spoiler                     
so I made a quick 3d sketch of it:
Spoiler                     
and made a guesstimation of the stats to fit a tier X or so tank:

Crew: 8
Engine: 2 x FIAT SPA - 400hp -diesel
Weight (kg): 100,000kg
Speed (on road/off/road)(kmh): 25/15 kmh
Armament: 105mm
102mm L.39 Autocononne 102/35 AP-157
102mm L.44 102/40 AP-178mm
102/34 Armstrong Model 1914. AP (15kg) HE (13.74kg)at 750mps
120/40 Elswick Model 1893. AP/HE (20.4kg) at 544mps AP-297mm(Wrought Iron)
Dimensions (L,W,H): 12.0m x 4.0m x 4.0m
Armour: 120/100/120mm


I then tried to sketch a logical extension of it as a 'MkII' version (but the tracks went a bit wild on me.
The premise is that they would have ditched the rear firing turret and second 'nipple' turret as useless and for reasons of reality gone to a single gun (the mount for a double naval cannon of that size would be massively too heavy for any vehicle)
Spoiler                     
The stats would then have been:

GL-4 (MKII) (Logical evolution of GL-4 design)
Crew: 8
Engine: 2 x FIAT SPA - 400hp -diesel
Weight (kg): 100,000kg
Speed (on road/off/road)(kmh): 25/15 kmh
Armament: 105mm
102mm L.39 Autocononne 102/35 AP-157
102mm L.44 102/40 AP-178mm
102/34 Armstrong Model 1914. AP (15kg) HE (13.74kg)at 750mps
120/40 Elswick Model 1893. AP/HE (20.4kg) at 544mps AP-297mm(Wrought Iron)
Dimensions (L,W,H): 12.0m x 4.0m x 4.0m
Armour: 120/100/120mm

Bascially with the paucity of information out there and the lack of anything to scale it by WoT can make it as big and/or as heavy as they like. It WAS intended (according to source) to be a very heav ytank, hence the reason it could be a tier X. There was nothign else I found which could fit the bill.
Unless you give this thing literally stupid levels of DPM and hysterically ahistorical penetration this vehicle is nowhere near tier X. Tier 7? Definitely. Tier 8? Maybe. Tier 9 or higher? Not a chance.

Spiley_Craw #60 Posted Jan 22 2013 - 15:54

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The Devs could make an Italian tree trivially, all they'd have to do is make up tons
of tanks from random scribbles on the back of napkins like they have done with every other
nation.

Point is they don't want to, and we have no recourse to change their minds.
So, we get ridiculous things like the Chinese tree instead.
-Kle.




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