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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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Slakrrrrrr #4101 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 15:35

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View PostImperator_Gallogrecia, on Feb 06 2014 - 21:09, said:

dont make fun of ron paul hes much smarter then you or i will ever be and much more consious of politcal corruption then any other politician in the us defenetly (and maybe in the world)

I wasn't making fun of Ron Paul, it's simply a meme that was related to the current situation.

 

It's like saying that liking the Conspiracy Keanu meme means you are making fun of him.



rivit #4102 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 16:26

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Spoiler

 I really thought it was going to be anti-partisan. Glad I didn't bet any dead presidents

 

 



Vollketten #4103 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 16:51

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From: 'Small Caliber Ammunition Identification Guide Vol.2' - Albert Watson 30/8/85

 

Breda 20mm AT and AA cannons, Solothurn S18-1000 amd AT S18-1100, Finnish Lahti 20mm AT, Rheinmetall 2cm Flak 30/38 AA, MG151/20, and Swiss M/39 20mm Cannon all use interchangeable ammunition which gives a good variety of choice of AP rounds for that gun.

 

Also 20mm Oerlikon Mk 2,3,4 and Type 'S' rounds also work in the Flak 28 and 29

 

That book also adds the 20mm Hispano-Suiza HS404 and HS804 to the Italian use inventory and notes that the ammunition is interchangeable with the US M3 and M24/M24A1 shells

 



Vollketten #4104 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 17:50

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Gussali tank ~1915

Spoiler

"Another precursor of modern tanks was the captain of artillery louis Gussalli that in 1917 it built in novara a very interesting guy. the wagon assaulto Gussalli was essentially fidge an armored turret, by a motor located at the rear of the vehicle and two pairs of shoes which, for the action of the engine, moved one after the other so that when one rested on the ground, the other is brought forward. although the tests carried out have given satisfactory results, however, do not come to pass, the official adoption of the chariot gussali"

 

The Renault FT-17 105 despite other sources confirming it is French only is definitely eligible for Italy as it was to be produced. Schneider S220 also needs to be re-added as this states that 220 was used.

Spoiler

"as we have seen in August 1918 the Ansaldo do not know if reflecting or anticipating a military orientation of the authority states that the hassels of artillery wagons type ie the self-propelled tank is imposed. Moreover, it is in practice inability to reproduce the material now at hand (the schneider 220) to the conditions laid down by the French house iugulatorie (all.11) while clearly the idea of ​​the self-propelled derive from the wagons Renault requires time. then the military authorities will truly last-minute decision (November 2, 1918!) to envisage the barter entire order of battle Renault, already substantially terminated, with immediate preparation of 12 self-propelled 105 (note on the hull Renault ) and then ventilated perspective to revive the job transforming the entire texture from wagons in self-propelled guns."

 

 



Vollketten #4105 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 18:24

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Collating Ansaldo Design numbers (in numeric order): -

 

Ansaldo Magrini Magriapan - A1 10738

Ansaldo Turrinelli Testuggine Corazzata #39 - 

Ansaldo Turrinelli Testuggine Corazatta #40 - 

Ansaldo Tipo A, 6 wheeled armoured car with 47mm gun in turret (135 degree) (35-40kmh) - ? 1927

Ansaldo Tipo B, as above - A16470 no date - 1927

Ansaldo Tipo B with 57mm gun - A16507 9th July 1927

Ansaldo RT Armoured Car - A16585 22nd August 1927

 



rivit #4106 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 19:29

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I replaced the Ft-17(105) with the Ansaldo 1927 on my tree.

Did the prototype turn out to be purely designed and built by the French?



Vollketten #4107 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 19:31

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Looks like the initial idea was French and then was to be built in Italy but never happened

Vollketten #4108 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 20:07

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On the Magrini:

 

Spoiler

 

"...the use of the first British tanks in the battle of sums 16 September 1916 was ignored by the Undersecretariat of weapons and ammunition by right Gen.Dallolio.

Pio Perrone, October 5, 1916 by writing to Eng. Gino Turrinelli his agent as well as designer warned:

 

"I believe useful to inform you that the SE Dallolio told me this morning that in fact armored car sat preparing something new and important."

 

It was the sale of a part of the  French Schneider seems, however, that the Pavesi had already prepared his tank. But from here before proceeding further, we must remember that the purpose of this study is to establish who is responsible for the primacy of i'invenzione, but rather to inform, to the extent resulting from the archives could see, what happened in Italy in the field of the tank as any other relative to mechanization. Therefore concentrate in the appendix to this chapter offers some news that similar records are allocated from other publicists to other nations: in each case with the same arguments uncontrollable and therefore outside of our interests.

There is comfort in the words of the Austrian Gunther Burstyn , designer already in 1912 a cannon engine crawler also published in the journal Marine and Army :

In mid- January 1917 Ing. Turrinelli had finished projects of two armored Testuggine . A common feature of his projects was the use of the already mentioned benzo-electric transmission . The Ansaldo was also developing plans for a Mobile Fortino is the idea magg.Magrini , even in this case the transmission was benzo-electric.

 

On January 26, the Directorate-General informed the genius Ansaldo that:

 

"Eng. Turrinelli presented to codesta direction a project with the main features and designs of a Tortoise Battleship - Type Ansaldo Turrinelli. In order to compare this project with that of the major. Magrini , of which only the characteristics you know , PLEASE want to send at the earliest drawings of the latter accompanied by all the necessary information. With what is not suspended any of the decisions for the administration of the materials that may have already taken or is about to take the Undersecretariat of Arms & Ammunition, but we want to judge whether it is appropriate also to experience the kind Ansaldo – Turrinelli"

 

In the same day the Supreme Command of the genius called the command of the 3rd Army to affect the command of the 3rd Army to authorize the Turrinelli to go to the front line to examine the real ground of application of the Testuggine that the action had to cooperate in the advance of the infantry the enemy lines.

Both the fort is the two Testuggine exploited the train rolling of the tractor semi-tracked Soller in use in our army. This suspension system was clearly derived from American, represented a subtle criticism of the system used in agricultural tractors Holt. This does not worry about the little Perrone in doubt that it has opened the firm Soller a field that belonged to us, leaving us poach a system and ours, and for which we have already made ​​a lot of sacrifices."

 

Holt 75hp tractorFiat Model 20A/B or 30A tractor

 

 

"The adoption of towed by the heavy batteries and pitched of those heavy, spread in the major armies in the last period of the war had highlighted the need for tractors that were not only aimed at proceed with remarkable speed on the road, but even that will guarantee that these artilleries full maneuverability in rough terrain. Once unwrapped, pitched for the heavy artillery, the solution of road (the experiments conducted by truck Fiat / Spa for the road transport system pieces from 105/28 and 149/12, in 1919, did not give good results, the Directorate of Higher Construction of Artillery, on the directives of the Central SM, proceeded to tow experiences of two pieces of 149 heavy pitched During the tests conducted January 26, 1923 before the highest military authorities, the complexes were pulled by trucks 18 BL, one with a girdle of the Company Tracks of Milan, the other tracks of the Arsenal of Turin. The outcome was fairly good, but it was recognized that the problem demanded further investigation, given that neither of the two tracks, allowing the use of land very pliable, otherwise the sinking vehicle. Solution, experts claimed, was to be interim, given that the problem could only be resolved by the adoption of "light tugs to total grip" and not by the wartime trucks, tractors and not studied as unfit to move off the roads. "

-------------Nicola Pignato 'Artillery and Motorization'

http://digilander.li...ry/trattori.htm

 

 

Soller system:

Ferrocarril de Sóller SA made electric trams and train circa 1900 to 1930 or so and their trains were based upon a gauge of 914mm

http://www.trendesol...company/History

 

On the benzo-electric (petrol-electric system):

"[on the subject of towing artillery field pieces, that at the current time ~WW1] .....current time, generate electricity with the drive for use with electric motors on each wagon in tow." 

-------------unknown name publication by engineer Captain Cantono

 

So the Ansaldo Magrini Magriapan dates to exactly 1917 and is not as big as first thought. Given that the tracks are based on the Holt system it's fairly simple to figure out an estimate of its true size.


Edited by Vollketten, Feb 07 2014 - 20:08.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #4109 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 20:28

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View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Feb 07 2014 - 09:35, said:

I wasn't making fun of Ron Paul, it's simply a meme that was related to the current situation.

 

It's like saying that liking the Conspiracy Keanu meme means you are making fun of him.

apologies :) :P



rivit #4110 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 20:36

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So the Magrini print was never part of the Ansaldo projects mentioned by the Russians? Besides the GL-4 with 75mm , that leaves the other projects unknown. I wonder what the 107mm goes with?

 

 


Edited by rivit, May 01 2014 - 23:11.


Vollketten #4111 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 20:59

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don't know yet but i'm sure we will find out.

 

Spoiler

 

"in January 1929 an exemplar of Carden-Loyd MK.VI underwent preliminary tests near Savon , then the ordinary way from Savona to Turin and finally to Cassellette .

In experimental purpose was bought a wagon Vickers 6-ton , which was tested in the Sciarborasca , arsenal Ansaldo SA The wagon was not adopted , but the suspension system was thoroughly studied because some will meet his train rolling in all the achievements of Italian from the M11/39 series up to P40.

 

The industry Moto Guzzi , O.T.O,  Carraro ( Caproni ), Ansaldo , Fiat experiments and projects. Preferential hints of the client.

 

Research was conducted on the ability of companies to power heavy machine guns, allowing them also carrareccie [negotiate?] rugged mountain paths, and care of the Moto Guzzi zi was developed a prototype of a fully armored mototriciclo of which are untraceable. Always Moto Guzzi construi a vehicle of the class of Carden Loyd has a unique tilting train rolling over the hull. I know two separate versions : a tank and a self-propelled tank of the piece to 65/17 .

This also means unusual, of which the prototype was built and tested, was not followed. Best luck knew projects Ansaldo SA Remembers Eng. Caproni in a long memo, written after World War II :

 

"From an interview with elapsed Gen. Cavallero - at that time President of Ansaldo - was born a partnership with Officine Carraro, of which I was chairman for the production of tanks. The first two tanks for the army were one small and one medium. The Officione Carraro built the engine, transmission, and generally all the mechanical parts; Ansaldo instead I take care of the construction of the chassis and armor. The tests gave good results, but when you stretch to make the tanks in series, the Carraro was left aside and the wagons were ordered to Fiat and Ansaldo. Not only that but instead of producing the medium tank was made the little wagon that could be used in a colonial war but certainly not against armies advanced and well-equipped.

 

Then surely we can document two projects Ansaldo wagon fast one armed with a 65mm howitzer machine gun and the other Fiat 14, dated January 1930. It was also presented in 1929 a project of wagon breaking 8 t equipped with a diesel engine 6-cylinder V This wagon, armed with a rapid-fire cannon 65, was built and is probably the one referred to the engineer. Caproni"

 

 



Imperator_Gallogrecia #4112 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:06

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View PostVollketten, on Feb 07 2014 - 14:59, said:

Then surely we can document two projects Ansaldo wagon fast one armed with a 65mm howitzer machine gun and the other Fiat 14, dated January 1930. It was also presented in 1929 a project of wagon breaking 8 t equipped with a diesel engine 6-cylinder V This wagon, armed with a rapid-fire cannon 65, was built and is probably the one referred to the engineer. Caproni"

 

 

so a new tank and then we get specifics of the Carro Di Roturro Prototype? or all that plus a second ansaldo?



Vollketten #4113 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:27

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I would say the vehicle commonly referred to as the Carro di Rottura simply as a lighter hulled version with less armour. 8t instead of 12.

The CDR was name-changed to avoid confusion (quite a few vehicles get called Carro di Rottura) to Ansaldo 12/34 (12 tonnes 1934) but this is 8 tonnes from 1929.

I guess you could have an Ansaldo 8/29 da 65mm but it wouldnt really differ from the Ansaldo 12/34 da 65mm.

Probably best just used as a hull option (less armour) than the 12 tonne version.

 

 

 


Edited by Vollketten, Feb 07 2014 - 21:27.


Vollketten #4114 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:38

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Random Italian stuff for a friday afternoon:

M.14/41 with mine plough.



Vollketten #4115 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:46

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'Lince' armoured car (Italian copy of British Daimler) Carro 269 of 1942



Slakrrrrrr #4116 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:56

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View PostVollketten, on Feb 07 2014 - 12:46, said:

'Lince' armoured car (Italian copy of British Daimler) Carro 269 of 1942

Interesting, now hopefully there are some blueprints with tracks! :great:



Vollketten #4117 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 21:59

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View PostSlakrrrrrr, on Feb 07 2014 - 14:56, said:

Interesting, now hopefully there are some blueprints with tracks! :great:

oh yes.

 

Caproni CA-180

(I am not a plane buff but a quick google doesn't tell me if this ever existed or not- I doubt it) with a very smart rear opening to accomodate an M.13 shown here

 



Imperator_Gallogrecia #4118 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 22:26

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View PostVollketten, on Feb 07 2014 - 15:46, said:

'Lince' armoured car (Italian copy of British Daimler) Carro 269 of 1942

Autoblinda Lince

This was a nearly exact copy of the British Daimler Dingo 4 x 4 scout car. It was produced by Lancia after the Italo-Allied armistice and was used by the RSI. 250 units were made.  

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianArmoredCars.html

 

you have to highlight the table to see the contents for some reason

Crew 2
Weight 3.14 tons
Length 10' 6"
Width 5' 8"
Height 5' 4"
Engine 8cyl. Gasoline, 60hp
Performance 86 kmh (road)
Range 350 km
Armament 2 x 8mm MG, 1 x 47mm Gun
Armor

8.5 - 14mm


Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Feb 07 2014 - 22:29.


Vollketten #4119 Posted Feb 07 2014 - 22:28

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 Materials required [for construction of the Fiat 2000] Fiat San Giorgio yard (which was a shipbuilding yard) built the two copies of the Fiat 2000. Armour was of the vanadium type as used on the warship 'Christopher Columbus' and the construction  required two 65mm guns and 20 Fiat-Revelli machine guns. (1 x 65mm gun and 5 MG's per vehicle)

 

 

Armour scheme for that Lince

 

 



rivit #4120 Posted Feb 08 2014 - 16:09

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So that's Naval steel for the Fiat 2000.

Ka-ching!

Prototypes get all the best love.


Edited by rivit, May 01 2014 - 23:12.





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