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italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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Reid7at #4301 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 22:40

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Some images regarding the (minor and tiny) differences between Italian L1A2 Leopard produced by Oto Melara and L1A1 Kraus Maffei Leopard under Italian service:

http://www.modellism...php?storyid=254



Vollketten #4302 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 22:43

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Thats nice. Will have to do some kind of side-by-side comparison on here with those.

rivit #4303 Posted Feb 19 2014 - 22:57

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I found this little article: 

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARMOR/content/issues/1983/MAY_JUN/1983MayJune.pdf

Armor Magazine, May- June 1983

Lieutenant Colonel Pasqualino Verdecchia, Italian Armor ,Past, Present and Future, pg.34

"The above mentioned study indicates that 81 percent of enemy tanks will appear at less than 2,000 meters. At these 
ranges, the M60AI and Leopard I (figure 5) 105-mm guns, both licensed to be built in Italy, provide the required performance due to improvement in their fire control systems and also in their night fighting capabilities, both of which are enhanced by Italian-built, on-board systems."

The article includes a study about view ranges in the Italian zone during the cold war.

 


Edited by rivit, Oct 31 2014 - 16:05.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #4304 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 00:32

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not tank related but its about italian partisan info which is hard to come by, i personally like it bc it gives a whole paragraph to the Napolitan rebels which is what my grandpa was invovled in.

 

http://www.isnare.com/encyclopedia/Italian_resistance_movement#In_Italy


Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Feb 20 2014 - 00:33.


Reid7at #4305 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 01:13

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View PostImperator_Gallogrecia, on Feb 20 2014 - 00:32, said:

not tank related but its about italian partisan info which is hard to come by, i personally like it bc it gives a whole paragraph to the Napolitan rebels which is what my grandpa was invovled in.

 

http://www.isnare.com/encyclopedia/Italian_resistance_movement#In_Italy

 I want to get this little OT opportunity to remember also the thousands soldiers of the italian army (the vast majority) who refused to fight with their Nazi former ally and were sent to the concentration camps, not like war prisoners (like allied soldiers) but as political prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia....itary_internees



Imperator_Gallogrecia #4306 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 02:31

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just found some wieeeeerd info

The Semovente 47/32 was a derivative of the L13/40, strongly influenced by the German STUG design. It was used as a tank hunter as well for close infantry support

but the m13/40 is named later on so i dont think its just a hicup

so possible new TD L13/40?

 

now for some more important sensable info

 

"This issue was first adressed with a prototype, the Fiat-Ansaldo Carro d'Assalto L/36 or 5-tons modello 36, a CV-35 tankette equipped with a new suspension and a light traversing turret, armed with a L/26 37mm and a coaxial Breda 6.5mm Mg. The amor was raised to 30mm, speed lowered to 32 kph and the range was only 80km. A second prototype had the gun replaced in the hull, and a full traverse light machine-gun turret. Despite some production advantages, the Army choosed a new scaled-up model. The Carro Armato Leggera M6T (1938) was given a stronger chassis, more powerful engine SPA 8-cyl and a reworked suspension, and a light turret bearing a twin 8mm Breda modello 38. It has an impressive 42 kph top speed and far better range (200 km). But despite these performances, the Army insisted for a better armed model. This came only by early 1940 with the L6/40, the first prototype beeing delivered and a preserie soon after by mid-1940. The L6/40 was almost identical to the previous prototype, but with a  37/26 rapid-fire antitank gun, and a coaxial Breda 8mm. The preseries and serie were armed with a 20mm Modelo 35 gun"

 

i count 7 tanks there the 5ton, the L6/40,CV-35 turreted 37/26,prototype A, and Prototype B,M6/38, L6/40 prototype

and then the "L13/40"

and all of these tanks have the guns of 37/26 and the 20/65 guns  at the very least

the 20/65 gets 30mm of pen with a RPM of 240

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Model_35

 

the way it sounds to me is that a stage of evoloution occured and it went like this

CV-35 turreted -> L5/36 -> Prototype A -> Prototype B -> M6/38 -> negligible L6/40 -> L6/40

i think lines we could make out of this is

                 CV-35cc (TD LINE)

               L13/40 ->\> Prototype B -------------------------------------------> />somvente 47/40 (TD LINE)

                  CV-35 -> /> L5/35 ->   \> Prototype A -> M6/38 ---->L6/40 (LIGHT LINE)

                  CV-38® (TD LINE)

a veery confusing tree but it would include autoloaing TD's, new tanks and some tanks with two guns

 

some other new things i atleast didnt know

 

"L3/35 cc ( "cc" stood for "contro carro" Antitank version) an adaptation of the elderly CV 35, "Centauro" division which arrived to late in Lybia, missing El Alamein. However under Kesselring and Rommel they performed a good fightning retreat into Tunisia. Some CV 33 were thrown at Kasserine pass against freshly landed GIs. The 20 mm Solothurn rifle was produced initially by a firm controlled by Rheinmetall, in Switzerland. It was heavy, cumbersome and had a huge recoil, but a far better muzzle velocity than the British Boys, and were able to pierce any armour up to 35 mm. As a result, many L3 were successfully converted as antitank platforms.

 

L3/38R (Radio version) used as a command tank, "Friuli" division based in Corsica, november 1942 (General Umberto Mondino). Four Italian divisions were commited to the occupation of Corsica after the German invasion of the French Vichy so-called "free zone". This was a strategical response to the allied landings in North Africa (operation Torch)"

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/italy/carro_veloce_cv33_cv35_cv38.php

 

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/italy/ww2_Italian_Tanks.php


Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Feb 20 2014 - 02:32.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #4307 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 02:43

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Breda 13.2mm Modello 31 (a few of the tanks have these dual mounted in the hulls, p75 prototypes, CV-35, m13/40 probably more im forgeting)

SPECIFICATIONS.
TYPE = Heavy Machine Gun
CALIBRE = 13.2mm
ELEVATION = 0 to +90.
TRAVERSE = 360.
WEIGHT = 370 kg.
RATE OF FIRE = 500 r.p.m.
MUZZEL VELOCITY = 790 m/s.
AMMUNITION = 0.125 kg (30 round magazine).
CREW = 3.
MAXIMUM RANGE (GROUND TARGETS) = 2.500m
MAXIMUM CEILING = 1.600m
ARMOUR PENETRATION = 29mm @ 100m.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=176107



Vollketten #4308 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 03:56

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View PostImperator_Gallogrecia, on Feb 19 2014 - 19:31, said:

just found some wieeeeerd info

The Semovente 47/32 was a derivative of the L13/40, strongly influenced by the German STUG design. It was used as a tank hunter as well for close infantry support

but the m13/40 is named later on so i dont think its just a hicup

so possible new TD L13/40?

 

 

I'm assuming that is a typo. A 13 tonne tank was well above the weight to be classified as a medium. Hell even the L.6 was rebranded M.6 at one point so I just assume the site got confused which is easily done.

 

Where did you find that?



Imperator_Gallogrecia #4309 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 03:59

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View PostVollketten, on Feb 19 2014 - 21:56, said:

 

I'm assuming that is a typo. A 13 tonne tank was well above the weight to be classified as a medium. Hell even the L.6 was rebranded M.6 at one point so I just assume the site got confused which is easily done.

 

Where did you find that?

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/italy/ww2_Italian_Tanks.php

thats the link


Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Feb 20 2014 - 04:08.


sp15 #4310 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 13:47

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View PostImperator_Gallogrecia, on Feb 20 2014 - 02:59, said:

its quite obvious its a typo. you can see that it is from the way its worded.

you are just grasping at staws



Vollketten #4311 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:13

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View PostReid7at, on Feb 19 2014 - 15:40, said:

Some images regarding the (minor and tiny) differences between Italian L1A2 Leopard produced by Oto Melara and L1A1 Kraus Maffei Leopard under Italian service:

http://www.modellism...php?storyid=254

From that most excellent site.

 

I'll have to post these side-by-sides on a series of posts or they wont be allowed as they will get too long for the forum formatting system. Text will be from that site editted for content and with any comments by me in [ ].

For all of the they are set out as:

                                                L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

"German production lacks the horn in front of the right headlight [loss appears through accident rather than design]

... the shape of the plate bolted to the tow bar is slightly different as well as the positioning of the bolts. Varies little even the placement of some of the media for the stocks of connectors, mesh and wolf teeth plastron back on track." 

 

"....:the tow cables which in both cases are anchored down on piatra rear of the vehicle but in the case of the wagons of German production ending cin fixing on the upper hull fifty centimeters after the end of grids of escapements, while on the OTO Melara are significantly longer and end with the hook at about half of the turret; the eyes of the rangefinder with the difference just appreciable (in these images) between the almost round shape of that of the specimens and the Kraus Maffei decidedly elliptical of OTO Melara..."



cwjian90 #4312 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:17

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View PostVollketten, on Feb 19 2014 - 21:56, said:

 

I'm assuming that is a typo. A 13 tonne tank was well above the weight to be classified as a medium. Hell even the L.6 was rebranded M.6 at one point so I just assume the site got confused which is easily done.

 

Where did you find that?

 

Pretty sure the Semovente da 47/32 was based on the L.6/40, not the M.13/40?



Vollketten #4313 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:18

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continuing the comparisons from http://www.modellism...hp?storyid=254 

 

                                           L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

 

 

[towing eyes are at a slightly different angle]

 


Edited by Vollketten, Feb 20 2014 - 16:18.


Vollketten #4314 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:21

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continuing the comparisons from http://www.modellism...hp?storyid=254 

 

                                           L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

 

[OTO version has an extra a small fastener (bottom right image) but otherwise the hulls are substantially the same]

 



Vollketten #4315 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:24

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continuing the comparisons from http://www.modellism...hp?storyid=254 

 

                                           L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

 

"...minor differences in the arrangement of the spare parts for the undercarriage (connectors, jumpers, wolf teeth, etc..).There is also a slight difference nell'incernieramento the outer cover of the phone, while the support pins of the connectors on the escort vehicle Kraus Maffei are both right and left lower relative to the shield (gray with white cross) for the maintenance the correct distance during the night march unlike OTO where they are in the same position but only to the left. The differences are certainly contained but still significant, and then to consider."

 

"The train of rolling and suspension of the two versions of the wagon analyzed are virtually identical except for the drive wheel. In addition to the very different shape of the hub, in the version Kraus Maffei is the guidacingolo [guide for track] inside. To be sure that it was not an isolated case, I checked all other wagons made in Germany yet and this feature is common to all, so the lack of guidacingolo should be distinctive feature of the means of production OTO Melara."
 


Vollketten #4316 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:31

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continuing the comparisons from http://www.modellism...hp?storyid=254 

 

                                           L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

"... the two towers [turrets] appear to be virtually identical apart from what was already mentioned before, that the form of the guards rangefinder (practically round the Kraus Maffei and decidedly oval sull'OTO Melara) and door to eject shell casings particular highlighted clearly in the photos..." [the missing piece around the right hand hatch as you view the OTO version is damage]

 

"I have heard that the protections of rangefinders over the means of production Kraus Maffei were removed and replaced with the OTO and vice versa. This is in my humble opinion it impossible for some reasons such as: the different fusion of the two towers and the difference between the terminal part of the Zeiss rangefinder (chariots of German production) than Galileo (chariots of Italian production). What seems more plausible and I've seen it done in person (before they were changed the methods of management of materials that do not allow more), is a tower that was mounted on a chariot Kraus Maffei OTO and vice versa."

 

[this bottom left and right images show damage to the ring around the hatch with the one on the right completely missing leaving just the steel posts it was welded to]



Vollketten #4317 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 16:34

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continuing the comparisons from http://www.modellism...hp?storyid=254 

 

                                           L1A1 Krauss Maffei on the left and L1A2 Oto Melara on the right

[you can see what the site was talking about with the differences between the loaders port with the German hatch sitting flush with a raised hinge and the Italian hatch having a flush fitting hinge and a slightly rounded thicker bodied hatch. 

Below you can make out the different shape of the ends of the rangefinders]



Vollketten #4318 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 17:31

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View PostVollketten, on Jan 31 2014 - 23:27, said:

'Encyclopedia of Armoured Cars' by Crow and Icks.

*snip

(unnamed) Field improvised partisan car, 1945 wedge shaped bonnet using turret for German Pz1 with Czech 47mm gun

 

Tried to come up with some pictures but no luck so far.

 

Some other Italian improvised armoured vehicles though.

 

This is a modified armoured Ceirano 47 AM pictured in Asmara, (Ethiopia) 1941

 

Improvised armoured plating on a GMC ACK 353 lorry with what looks to me like old loophole plate shields fastened together in the back to make-up a small amount of armour, but no armoured cab

 



Vollketten #4319 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 17:34

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Modified Fiat 633 NM lorry with armoured body clad in what looks like timbers

 

Modified GMC lorry with armoured cab and cargo space

 

Modified Ceirano 50CM lorry with armoured cab (again looks like timber)



Vollketten #4320 Posted Feb 20 2014 - 17:41

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Modified Renault ADH lorry with armoured body and mounting a single 8mm Fiat M.35

 

Improvised armoured car used in Harar 1941 (don't know what the donor vehicle is)

 

Bianci Armoured truck prototype






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