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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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WithinAmnesia #5521 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:03

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View PostVollketten, on Aug 24 2014 - 01:02, said:

 

Sorry none of your images showed up.

I'd suggest something like ingur or photobucket as image hosting sites


Vollketten, umm I was posting your images... can you please fix them.. :S

 

I use DeviantART for Image Hosting. For the pictures there wont, get deleted or 'messed up' like the mentioned Images and many, many more on old threads that got 'auto-deleted' :S; I Post them on DeviantART :P.


Edited by WithinAmnesia, Aug 24 2014 - 00:08.


Vollketten #5522 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:08

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huh, forgot about them. sorry

They weren't very good renders as I recall and I have deleted them from imgur. I might still have the sketchup files on my other computer, I'll look for them. 

I had gone back over the whole thread a while ago and removed a few of those sketchups for various tanks as they were turning up on various forums all over the place without citation, credit or explanation that they were conceptualisations. 

 

 



Vollketten #5523 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:10

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Did find this though in my imgur I had forgotten to post though:

Italian military truck towing a 37mm Skoda M.38 anti tank gun - Yugoslavian origin so presumably a captured piece.



Vollketten #5524 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:12

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huh another one.

A new vehicle too

Guzzi armoured three wheeled motorbike towing a 65mm L.17 mountain gun over very rugged terrain.



WithinAmnesia #5525 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:15

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"I had gone back over the whole thread a while ago and removed a few of those sketchups for various tanks as they were turning up on various forums all over the place without citation, credit or explanation that they were conceptualisations."

 

Wow, that sucks. *15 second pause* That REALLY sucks. I totally understand now, I remember the first time that happened to me was back in elementary School with some d.. 'dumb' person being fraudulent with my artwork and trying to get credit from it. I was pissed, straight to the principal's office and the kid got a 'ban' [detention] :P. Too bad the internet does not work like that all the time :/.

 

Anyway 'Cool-beans' for the Towed guns; the 'trike'-gun combination looks quite [for lake of better terms] 'Cute'.


Edited by WithinAmnesia, Aug 24 2014 - 00:17.


Vollketten #5526 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:17

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Edited by Vollketten, Aug 24 2014 - 00:18.


WithinAmnesia #5527 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:19

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Hmm? Oops? *Confused*



WithinAmnesia #5528 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:27

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Hey Vollketten could you please post those Sahariano Images but with the the 'trademarked' "Vollketten" Red mark somewhere where it cannot get 'cropped-out' for the above reasons. I have this 'planned' internal 'project' with Semi-Historic and Fictional Italian Tanks and Tech Trees. [My Fictional and Semi-Historic Tanks have realistic descriptions with no 'R.P.ing' just the author(s) / the source(s) / Intentions with the design.]


Edited by WithinAmnesia, Aug 24 2014 - 00:30.


TheWolfie #5529 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:34

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Not sure if it's been seen before, but here is a page about the Celere Sahariano project from Italian Medium Tanks 1935 - 1945 (for anyone who has not seen it.)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=jQmlAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Lh75U93tJ9W0yAT65YIo&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

It lists the M16/43 as having the same armor statistics as the M14/41, which makes sense, because it's basically a reverse engineered M14/41 in the shape of a Crusader. Life_in_Black pointed out though that the suspension is actually Torsion bar.

 

 

Translated the whole thing a few weeks ago.

 

Block Quote

Documentation related to this wagon is almost non-existent, but it should be a project-wagon variant of the 18-ton, of which mention is made in the report of Valletta in June 1941.

One can note, however, that it introduces a number of innovations in mechanical structures and assemblies of Italian cars. Abandoned and running gear bogies were replaced by four large bearing wheels per side, torsion bar suspension mounts, however, already adopted on L.6 and on a variant of L.3. The tracks are the type of mesh Christie to simple elements. The engine was one SPA petrol 275 hp, 11,300 cc. engine, with 8 cylinders in V. lower hull shape rather wide could reach a maximum speed of 60 km / h. It was planned to develop a 75 mm gun. The data concerning the characteristics and performance are not known. Prototype presumably completed in 1943.

 

The account of the top speed and engine seem to conflict.



Life_In_Black #5530 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:38

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The only mention of the Semovente Sahariano is in literally one of the least reliable sources on Italian vehicles, being the same Osprey publication that calls the Sahariano a carbon copy of the Crusader that uses a Christie suspension. I wouldn't believe anything it says unless it could actually be verified by a more reputable source.

 

As for the OTO Semovente 105/25, it never went anywhere, as OTO wasn't given a P.26/40 chassis to turn into the Semovente, which is why the widened M.15/42 chassis was used instead. So there are no photos of it and to my knowledge, there weren't any plans drawn up for such a vehicle either.



Life_In_Black #5531 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:41

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 23 2014 - 19:34, said:

Not sure if it's been seen before, but here is a page about the Celere Sahariano project from Italian Medium Tanks 1935 - 1945 (for anyone who has not seen it.)

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=jQmlAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Lh75U93tJ9W0yAT65YIo&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

It lists the M16/43 as having the same armor statistics as the M14/41, which makes sense, because it's basically a reverse engineered M14/41 in the shape of a Crusader. Life_in_Black pointed out though that the suspension is actually Torsion bar.

 

That's actually the only source out there that I've ever seen mention a self-propelled Sahariano variant, and given the misinformation about the Sahariano in that book, I would only believe it if it could be corroborated by a source more reputable and reliable.



TheWolfie #5532 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:49

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 23 2014 - 19:41, said:

 

That's actually the only source out there that I've ever seen mention a self-propelled Sahariano variant, and given the misinformation about the Sahariano in that book, I would only believe it if it could be corroborated by a source more reputable and reliable.

 

... Umm, you might be arguing with the wrong person, because I don't support making an imaginary self-propelled gun and putting it in the tree.

 

 



Life_In_Black #5533 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 00:51

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 23 2014 - 19:49, said:

 

... Umm, you might be arguing with the wrong person, because I don't support making an imaginary self-propelled gun and putting it in the tree.

 

 

 

That wasn't directed at you, just to the thread in general. I don't like speculating about what a vehicle might have looked like when there's no real proof that such a vehicle existed in the first place.



TheWolfie #5534 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 01:05

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 23 2014 - 19:51, said:

 

That wasn't directed at you, just to the thread in general. I don't like speculating about what a vehicle might have looked like when there's no real proof that such a vehicle existed in the first place.

 

I think some artistic license can be taken (I literally have a Vickers Medium Mk I in-game with a 6 pdr.) but creating a new vehicle when there is no solid proof that one exists really stretches what I mean by "artistic license."

 

 

 



Vollketten #5535 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 01:38

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on a different note.

Some German modifications on Italian AB-41's in Yugoslavia 1944:

 

These two are fitted with spaced armour panels (also camouflaged) over the hull fronts and spotlights on the turrets

This one has additional armoured covers to help protect the front wheels.



WithinAmnesia #5536 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 01:43

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 24 2014 - 02:05, said:

 

I think some artistic license can be taken (I literally have a Vickers Medium Mk I in-game with a 6 pdr.) but creating a new vehicle when there is no solid proof that one exists really stretches what I mean by "artistic license."

 

 

 

I Agree, If no historic evidence can be found in multiple sources then the vehicle could be fictional [Semi-Historic] thus not allowed in a Historic Tech Tree / Progression Structure. [Although a Semi-Historic 'Tech Tree' Would be fine..] (Although W.o.T. uses mostly Historic Tech Trees).

 

View PostLife_In_Black, on Aug 24 2014 - 01:38, said:

The only mention of the Semovente Sahariano is in literally one of the least reliable sources on Italian vehicles, being the same Osprey publication that calls the Sahariano a carbon copy of the Crusader that uses a Christie suspension. I wouldn't believe anything it says unless it could actually be verified by a more reputable source.

 

As for the OTO Semovente 105/25, it never went anywhere, as OTO wasn't given a P.26/40 chassis to turn into the Semovente, which is why the widened M.15/42 chassis was used instead. So there are no photos of it and to my knowledge, there weren't any plans drawn up for such a vehicle either.

I Agree, Historical Tech Trees should only have Proven Historical vehicles in them. Multiple Accurate Sources Required of coarse.

 

Hmmn, So the O.T.O. Semovente da 105/23 / 105/25 was planned for the P.26/40 hull but due to 'economic' reasons a P.26/40 Hull could not be acquired? Thus an Improvised M.15/42 Hull was used? [Where is the source for this? Hmmn, interesting thought anyway because that would mean that the O.T.O. Semovente da 105/23 / 105/25 could have Two Historic Hulls if true..]

 

Thanks for the Insight and Inspiration you two and Take Care Everyone.


Edited by WithinAmnesia, Aug 24 2014 - 01:50.


WithinAmnesia #5537 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 01:45

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Great Content Post Vollketten *Images Saved*.



Life_In_Black #5538 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 01:48

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 23 2014 - 20:05, said:

 

I think some artistic license can be taken (I literally have a Vickers Medium Mk I in-game with a 6 pdr.) but creating a new vehicle when there is no solid proof that one exists really stretches what I mean by "artistic license."

 

 

 

 

I don't mind a little artistic license, for instance we know the Italians studied the idea of mounting a low velocity 149mm cannon onto an M.15/42 chassis. Something like that is easy to figure out, especially as the Semovente da 149/40 would have been a direct result of such studies. But in the case where the only mention of a vehicle is a not so reliable source, I can't in good conscience support it.

 

View PostWithinAmnesia, on Aug 23 2014 - 20:43, said:

I Agree, If no historic evidence can be found in multiple sources then the vehicle could be fictional [Semi-Historic] thus not allowed in a Historic Tech Tree / Progression Structure. [Although a Semi-Historic Would be fine..] (Wot uses mostly Historic Tech Trees).

 

I Agree, Historical Tech Trees should only have Proven Historical vehicles in them. Multiple Accurate Sources Required of coarse.

 

Hmmn, So the O.T.O. Semovente da 105/23 / 105/25 was planned for the P.26/40 hull but due to 'economic' reasons a P.26/40 Hull could not be acquired? Thus an Improvised M.15/42 Hull was used? [Where is the source for this? Hmmn, interesting thought anyway because that would mean that the O.T.O. Semovente da 105/23 / 105/25 could have Two Historic Hulls if true..]

 

Thanks for the Insight and Inspiration you two and Take Care Everyone.

 

I believe Vollketten had found documents mentioning OTO's interest in such a Semovente but that due to the monopoly enjoyed by Ansaldo-Fiat, they refused to give OTO a P.26/40 chassis.



TheWolfie #5539 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 02:01

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Proud M14/41 await shipment to serve mighty Roman Fatherland.



WithinAmnesia #5540 Posted Aug 24 2014 - 02:08

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"I believe Vollketten had found documents mentioning OTO's interest in such a Semovente but that due to the monopoly enjoyed by Ansaldo-Fiat, they refused to give OTO a P.26/40 chassis."

 

'The Man be Gettin' O.T.O. Down..'


Hmmn, So there was at least plans for a P.26/40 hull to be turned into a Semovente da 105/23 / 105/25 [P.40], yet the reality was that O.T.O. could not get a P.26/40 hull. So an Improvised M.15/42 Hull was or could have [< was it even made?] been 'used'.


I have seen that Welded Semovente da 105/23 /105/25 M.42 photograph and it was so identical to the Ansaldo design that I at first thought it was a later Semovente da 105/25, but as Rivit Pointed out to me that it has Welded Sides. Anyway my point is that the 'Welded Hull' Semovente da 105/25 M.42 is probably not made by O.T.O. for these reasons [Albeit Built upon limited subject knowledge]:

A.) It looks 99.5% identical to the Ansaldo Design.

B.) It would make no Sense for Two Competing companies to make the same design. [The H. Tiger and P. Tiger we two different competing designs and they we not 99.5% Identical [Counter: nor were they Italian].

C.) It could have very well just been a Prototype or a Pre-Series Model that, in later developments 'dropped' the Welded Hull for Rivits.


Hmmn, if I am mistaken PLEASE tell me. I just want the truth, not drama.


Anyway,

Take Care Everyone and Have Fun!






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