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Vollketten #5581 Posted Aug 29 2014 - 14:12

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 29 2014 - 01:16, said:

 

You know that had to hurt.

Judging from the snow embankment next to it it almost looks like it is as a result of an accident. Driving in snow is hard enough, especially buttoned up in a tank. But yes, definitely a sore experience



rivit #5582 Posted Aug 30 2014 - 19:28

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Italian Tanks In Foreign Service

1.Egypt and Israel: The Battle of Negba (M13)

Vollketten's post:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5480__pid__7659041#entry7659041

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Negba

 

2.Iraq: Ba'ath party coup(M13 photo with Saddam)

Vollk's photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5560__pid__7691962#entry7691962

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan_Revolution

 

 

3. Iraq's uprising covered on Overlord's blog:

http://overlord-wot.blogspot.cz/2014/08/ribbon-of-fire.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

 

 

4.Afghanistan: CV3s, Where were they used and for how long? photos from Afghanistan.

Vollk's photo: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5840__pid__7958914#entry7958914

Vollk's post: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5840__pid__7964169#entry7964169

 

 

5.China:

Wolfie's photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5540__pid__7689801#entry7689801

Website:

 http://www.oocities.org/wargame_au/ChineseNationalistsArmy.html

6.Greece: The Battle of Doiran and some M13s used elsewhere.

J.G. Bitzes, Greece in World War II : to April 1941

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5440__p__7649381#entry7649381

 

 

 

http://greek-war-equipment.blogspot.com/2009/04/1940-l335-tankette.html

Vollk's photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__4060__pid__6538932#entry6538932

Wolfies photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5560__pid__7695052#entry7695052

7.Australia: M11s and M13s used during the attack on Tobruk.

8.South Africa: M11s and CVs captured in Somalia.

Vollk's post on pg 271 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5400__pid__7630197#entry7630197

9.Spain: The first flame tank - versus - gun armed tank battle:

Kenneth Macksey, Tank Versus Tank: The Illustrated Story of Armored Battlefield Conflict in the Twentieth Century

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5460__p__7653749#entry7653749

Vollk's post:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5100__pid__7165571#entry7165571

 

Soviet Tank Operations In The Spanish Civil War. by Steven J. Zaloga:

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/soviet_tank_operations_in_the_sp.htm

 

10.Ethiopia: Three Fiat 3000s purchased from Italy.

Wolfies photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5780__pid__7885940#entry7885940

David Lister, Sticks and Stones. An article about the war in Abyssinia including the Ethiopian Fiat 3000s.

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__6680__pid__9073894#entry9073894

 

11.Yugoslavia: M13/40 with P38t turret. Partisan stuff.

Vollk's photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__4060__pid__6538932#entry6538932

12.Hungary, Guatemala, Bulgaria, Brazil, and Bolivia:

Vollk's posts:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__4760__pid__6786194#entry6786194

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5180__pid__7321648#entry7321648

Wolfie's photo:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5780__pid__7885940#entry7885940

13.Austria: Wolfie's post:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__5540__pid__7689285#entry7689285

14.Albania's CV3s and Fiat 3000s. Vollk's post

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__4760__pid__6786194#entry6786194

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania

Video: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/invasion-of-albania/query/Italian+Tank

15.Denmark and Latvia's Fiat 3000s: Vollk's post

 http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__st__4760__pid__6786194#entry6786194
 16. L3s used by America(Vollk) and L3s used in France(Wolfie):

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/200193-italian-tanks-and-military-vehicles/page__pid__8064077__st__5940#entry8064077


 


 


Edited by rivit, Jun 08 2015 - 16:39.


TheWolfie #5583 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 20:52

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This M13/40 looks like it has a cupola, but I'm not sure.



sp15 #5584 Posted Aug 31 2014 - 21:43

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View PostTheWolfie, on Aug 31 2014 - 20:52, said:

 

This M13/40 looks like it has a cupola, but I'm not sure.

 

this has been discussed already. its a artillery spotting turret, also the gun is fake since its been replaced by optics equipment

Vollketten #5585 Posted Sep 01 2014 - 04:43

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From FTR: http://ftr.wot-news....-wg-stream-qa/ 

"- Italians can build only a partial branch, but WG wants a full branch"



Vollketten #5586 Posted Sep 02 2014 - 17:40

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The new 'Armoured Warfare' Game in their trailer features the OTO Centauro. ( http://en.wikipedia....iki/B1_Centauro )

I didn't see the C1 Ariete MBT though.

I'll not post the link because I'm not promoting their game, it just looks like a version of WoT with a different engine and obviously more modern vehicles which doesn't interest me.

 

But it would be nice to have the Centauro.

 

If the competitors are getting more Italian vehicles it helps put some pressure of WoT to do the same.



Vollketten #5587 Posted Sep 02 2014 - 18:55

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It's obviously not news or a suprise to people here but I like to keep a record of Italian-centric mentions on FTR too:

From: http://ftr.wot-news....#comment-189672

"- it’s possible that the top tier Italian medium tank will be the Leopard with autoloader"

 

It's this one he's referring to (unless there is another)

 

 



Vollketten #5588 Posted Sep 03 2014 - 17:17

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It's been a while since I typed up some notes so apologies as I'be been busy with some other projects recently:

 

  • Regarding the 47/32: ...."the soldier must be persuaded that if the tank cannot be stopped at 600m then it will at 300m and that at 20-30 metres the shooter must have a strong mind and remain calm" - La Difesa Controcarro nella Unita di Fanteria
  • [Some time after contact with first M4 tanks] it is determined that the 45mm and 37mm guns are not good enough
  • Some French 47mm L/50 guns were captured in Tunisia 

  • June 1943:
    • Ansaldo's proposal for a new anti-tank gun 47/48 is rejected
    • Breda's proposal for a 57mm gun is rejected
      • BOTH are rejected in exchange for a contract for 1000 German 7.5cm guns. [7.5cm Pak.40 known as 75mm M.40]
  • List of guns [not an exclusive list] of guns known to have been used in the Sicily campaign by Italian forces:
    • various guns of 37mm to 50mm
    • 75/34 M.97 (ex. Fr)
    • 65/18 M.6 (ex. Fr.)
    • 75/17 Mountain M.19 and M.28 (ex. Fr. and German)
    • 75/27 Krupp (captured stock from Belgium, Holland and German sources)
    • 76/15 M.27 (ex. USSR)
    • 76/32 (ex. Yugoslavian)
    • 100/23 (ex. Yugoslavian)
    • 105/15 M.35 (ex. Fr.)

- 88


Edited by Vollketten, May 08 2017 - 03:39.


Vollketten #5589 Posted Sep 03 2014 - 17:42

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more:

  • 1943: The 105mm gun [I'm having to assume it is referring to the 105/40 gun as this gun is mentioned directly afterwards] is considered perfectly capable pf neutralizing even the heaviest Soviet tanks tanks with EPS ammunition [Effetto Pronto Speciale]
  • 105/40 gun has a muzzle velocity of 710 metres per second and a mass of around 4 tonnes [not clear whether this is a mount weight including a trailer or carriage of some kind or just the gun on trunnions for mounting in a vehicle]
  • Also in 1943 was a 100mm anti-tank rocket "of the type Belmodo" was being developed
  • 37mm L/20.6 was fitted in 1936 into:
    • the casement of the Ansaldo 'Carro d'Assaulto', and
    • into the turret of the prototype M.6 (L.6)
  • 75/18 shell
    • AP shell weighs 6.26kg
    • Muzzle Velocity recorded as 476 m/s
  • 57/43 was mounted on a pedestal mount
  • 1933 - some 57/30 guns were transferred form the Navy to the Alpine defences
  • Nordfelt M.1887 gun
    • AP shell 2.9kg
    • Muzzle Velocity 665 m/s
    • Penetration recorded as 50mm @ 500m
  • Telegram dated 3rd January 1943 from the Governor General of Libya to the Supreme Commander of Armed Forces in Libya states that 82 guns for 8t tanks have been found lying in warehouses in Tripolitania

-88


Edited by Vollketten, Sep 03 2014 - 17:42.


cwjian90 #5590 Posted Sep 03 2014 - 18:28

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Posted Image

Vollketten #5591 Posted Sep 03 2014 - 22:25

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View PostWithinAmnesia, on Aug 14 2014 - 00:25, said:

That Gun Elevation! [Edit: Also What doe that Inscription Say on the side?]

Sorry I completely missed this one

MORHAMBAND?

 

Something like that.

Will have to look for a better quality image

 

View PostWithinAmnesia, on Aug 17 2014 - 16:26, said:

75/46 penetrates 90mm at 500m and 80mm at 1000m at what angle?

*snip

Source: http://www.onlineconversion.com/armor.htm

 

I have not had a chance to check out this site yet but I'll not forget

 

 



Vollketten #5592 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 15:20

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*Note to self-

********************************************************************************************************************************

Up to date to here 9/4/14 for files

Front page update req.

*********************************************************************************************************************************



Vollketten #5593 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 16:17

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Notes again:

(as usual apologies for repetition of information which may be earlier - a lot of stuff gets repeated and may additions are in [ ] )

 

  • 1924 article in 'Journal of the Royal artillery ' advokates adoption of anti-tank guns mounted on self-propelled gun carriage - Colonello M.Caraecciolo takes an interest in this and experiments in the US in 1925 for some designs of his own. 
  • 65/17 is considered superior to the 47/32 against tanks when using Effetto Pronto shells. [just interesting for proof of the existance of 65mm EP type shells rather than surprising that a larger shell would carry more explosive - with standard AP ammunition the 47/32 will still be superior in penetration]
  •  31st July 1933 - 'Summary of Issues Artillery' has the presentation of a 50mm Cannone weighing 90kg capable of firing a 1.5kg shell at 225m/s out to 3000m 
  • ~1934 a new infantry antiaircraft gun in 20mm calibre studied
  • ~1934 studies for a new infantry antitank gun: 
    • calibre 47mm
    • semiautomatic
    • Project led by Colonello Saracino
    • Weighs just over 50kg
      • Can be broken into three loads of 18kg each
    • Muzzle velocity variable between 60 and 160m/s
    • Shell 2.3kg
    • Range 200 to 1500 metres
    • Mule packs:
      • Each ammo box holds 6 shells and weighs 17kg
      • One mule can carry 8 boxes, therefore 48 shots
      • A company of 3 mules can carry 114 rounds with the gun
      • Thus a battalion with mules can carry 6 guns with 114 rounds each
  • ​Leads to the development of a better version:
    • 47mm calibre
    • Semiautomatic
    • 500kg weight in battery
    • On trailer for towing behind a vehicle
    • Can be dismounted from wheels and carriage for firing or fired from the carriage
    • Muzzle Velocity 800 m/s
    • Shells 1.5kg
      • Armour Piercing
      • High Explosive
    • Movement on mount:
      • Maximum elevation 30 degrees
      • 120 degrees of traverse (when taken off carriage)

-88/91



Vollketten #5594 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 16:33

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again for record keeping purposes from FTR today (all things Italian getting recorded)

http://ftr.wot-news....9/04/4-9-2014/ 

"- for now, there is no info available on the Italian autoloading Leopard"



rivit #5595 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 17:53

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Heh,

The I.O M40 p.c. and R 40 M.C. fuses are compatible with the 90/53 and 90/42.

Italian and French Explosive Ordnance

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/pdfs/TM9-1985-6-Italy.pdf

pg.138

 used in 75mm-100mm

Made of aluminum and of recent design.

More from same book:

Pg.61

E.P. and E.P.S  hollow charge are converted H.E. shells

Pg.63

7. Anti aircraft (A.A.)

These projectiles are H.E shell with aerial burst fuse.

 


Edited by rivit, Oct 23 2014 - 18:19.


Life_In_Black #5596 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 18:01

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I see we're making logical leaps here by assuming that "used in 75-100mm HE shells" suddenly equals "used in the 90/53 and 90/42 cannons".

rivit #5597 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 18:23

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More from same book:

Pg.61

E.P. and E.P.S  hollow charge are converted H.E. shells

Pg.63

7. Anti aircraft (A.A.)

These projectiles are H.E shell with aerial burst fuse.

You were saying?


 


 



PzBarkhorn #5598 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 18:25

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Another site, idk if was posted before: http://www.tank-net....showtopic=35087

 

P.S.: Slakrrrrrrr, dont expose so much that Cent's turret side, lol :teethhappy:



Life_In_Black #5599 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 18:49

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View Postrivit, on Sep 04 2014 - 13:23, said:

More from same book:

Pg.61

E.P. and E.P.S  hollow charge are converted H.E. shells

Pg.63

7. Anti aircraft (A.A.)

These projectiles are H.E shell with aerial burst fuse.

You were saying?


 


 

 

And it still doesn't say anything on the 90/42 and 90/53 using these shells. You can't just say that because they had these shells, that they were used in these specific guns. Historical research doesn't work that.

Vollketten #5600 Posted Sep 04 2014 - 18:52

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More:

  • [Regarding the 47/32 Bohler which is chosen over this improved 47mm design] 
    • Required 6 mules for transport
    • Lacks a gun shield for crew protection
    • Semiautomatic [breech] locking mechansim
    • High velocity shot capable of "penetrating over 40mm"
      • considered sufficient to deal with "most" contemporary tanks
    • A new Armour Piercing shell with a "false nose" [Capped] was introduced in 1939
      • Capable of penetrating armour plate 40mm thick at 30 degrees at 650m
      • New optics introduced for the gun in 1942, Mod.42 sight was much cheaper
    • When captured into German service was designated "4.7cm PaK 177(i)"

-88/91

  • 4.7cm PaK 177(i) stats:
    • Calibre Length 35.8
    • 277kg and 315kg on carriage
    • Shells:
      • AP 1.44kg at 630m/s
      • HE 2.73kg at 250m/s
      • PzGr 630 at 250m/s

-94

  • 47/32 performance considered poor against the modern medium tanks from the UK, Russia and USA
  • The EP round for the 47 demonstrated gave good results at short range [as that type of shell is not necessarily affected by muzzle velocity I assume this comment to relate to long range accuracy]
  • The Ansaldo 47/48 was tested in trials in 1943.
    • Following the trials though it was decided to adopt the German 7.5cm Pak 40
    • Did not have time to go into mass distribution before [September 1943] armistice
    • [In Italian service though just for confusion sake it is listed as a 75/34 due to measurement system]






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