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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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Vollketten #741 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 15:08

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dit 

 


Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:14.


Vollketten #742 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 15:35

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Okay I carefull re-read Italian Medium Tanks by Cappellano and Battistelli:


  • Ansaldo purchased a British Vickers 6t (Type B presumably) for trials in or about 1932. - now added to vehicles list.
  • Ansaldo worked on a 9 tonne turretless tank with a 65mm gun in 1929 with the gun fixed in a casement - which sounds a heck of a lot like the 'Di Rottura' except that all the sources seem to say that that project only had a 37mm gun. Given the development process though from 1929 until 1932 when the prototype actually gotr finished and various subsequent modifications until 1934 when it was 'finished' it is quite probably in my opinion that this is just another gun variant of the same vehicle. A 65mm gun (presumably the 65mm mountain howtizer as used on the Fiat 2000 series) as a tier II heavy would be devastating albeit in a slow and turretless vehicle. A good second gun option for a real Tier II heavy tank.
  • Even after it was 'finished' in 1934 Ansaldo still fiddled with the design adding a new suspension system in 1935 and a diesel engine. these modifications later went on to make the prototype of the M11 tank. - so now we have a good range of upgrades and starting features for bothe the 'Rottura' (on tree renamed as the ansaldo 12/34) and the M11.
  • The original prototype of the M11/39 was a 10 tonne vehicle in 1936 (see above) - now useable as a Tier III Premium
  • There was a 12 tonne version designed in 1932/34 proposal which reached the drawing stage. - now added as M12/34 to tree
  • It appears the naming issue has bitten me again. - The Sahariano M.16/43 should not be known as M.16/43 as the convention in Italy for Class/Weight/Year was abandoned in August 1942 in favour of Class/Year system. So therefore the M16/43 should only be known as the M.43 making it perfect to confuse with various tank destroyers, therefore on the tree it will be known as Sahariano M.43 in whatever shape it takes to avoid this.
  • Regarding the German license tank production issue it clarified some dates.
June 1941: Panzer III licensed for construction by Fiat was only to be built with German supplied material and 'without' main gun or sights as these would be supplied by the Germans. - So Italian machine guns and German main armament.
February 1942: Panzer IV  licensed for construction but no mention of German guns.
November 1942: Panzer V (Panther) licensed for construction but no mention of German guns.
All licenced tank production ideas ended in Spring 1943.

<p>
  • In August 1940 Mussolin personally ordered the construction of a heavy tank (as defined at the time a heavy or 'Pesante' tank is one with a weight over 20 tonnes). This one was to be 25 tonnes and do 32kph and was to be armed with a 75/18 in a turret coaxially with a 20mm cannon. 5 crew and either 3 or 4 machine guns.
  • As a result of that order three protoypes were developed two of which were by Ansaldo and had the driver in the centre of the hull. A third prototype was developed by the Army Centre for Motorization Studies which had the driver on the left and 2 machine guns on the hull front right. One of Ansaldo's  designs was chosen which evolved into the tank known variously as the P.75 (no not that one) or P.26 depending whether you use the GunSize convention or TankWeight naming convention. - Either way that tank is already on the tree as the P.26/40 Prototype (yes I used a different naming system for it) What this means though is potentially two more completely unused tank designs sat somewhere, one at Ansaldo we may never see and more hopefully one at the Army Mechanization Centre if its archives survived.
  • The German Maybach HL120 engine was consideered as being useable for heavy tanks. - So a nice power upgrade for Italian heavies like the P.40
  • There was the potential to mount the 105/23 105mm gun in the turret of the P40 and later tanks - which would be a huge increase in firepower for that tank - think back to the semi-auto 102mm and things could get interesting.  :smile:
  • Also discussed for the P40 was the use of a powerful 480hp Maybach engine - so the P.40 and after could receive a legitimate and historical power upgrade.
  • There was definately a prototype made baded on a P.40 tank hull of a Semovente using the 149/40 gun - no pictures but it definately existed so that discussion is over.
  • Lastly the Semovente M.43 mounting the 75/46 when in German service was at some point definately available with Ostketten - which in game counts as grousers as an upgrade option.

Edited by Vollketten, Jun 04 2013 - 15:36.


rivit #743 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 16:18

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View Postrivit, on Feb 17 2013 - 12:21, said:


I ran into a claim that there was a prototype Semovente with a 65mm gun called the Armato 9ton m.32 developed in 1932. Turns out its probably the Carro di Rottura with 37mm. I didn't want it to turn into another toy tank fiasco, so I've fought the urge to look for it any further.
And yet.....can't resist...the urge..... to look for it!!!
AAAAAAARRRRGGHHH
I had the 65mm prototype found and I didn't keep looking.
I blame the toy tank for this, It.......haunts me .

Edited by rivit, Jan 31 2014 - 15:13.


Vollketten #744 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 16:26

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The joys of research.  :smile:

Imperator_Gallogrecia #745 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 18:23

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according to this site the p.75 was an early stage designation of the p.40 so technically if we can find a blueprint or prototype at a earlier stage we could have a p.75 on the tech tree
http://www.militaryf...sp?armor_id=503

Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Jun 04 2013 - 18:32.


Vollketten #746 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 19:13

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*edit

Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:15.


Vollketten #747 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 19:21

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*edit

Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:15.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #748 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 19:48

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few important things from this essay  we can add http://www.panzercen...hp?f=93&t=46301
loyd gun carrier changed to italian copy version CB 41
panzer 3-5 able tp be put on the tree
m.14/41.bis new tank
sem 20/70 m42 quadrupolo another tank
plus more

Imperator_Gallogrecia #749 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 19:53

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after the next line update i was thinking we could make a mixed line of all extra italian tanks and put them in teired order not by tank type and with the new tanks i just found, the 4-5 premuim italian tanks and the 2 italian tanks off the tree we could get it to atleast tier 9
tanks used would be
M.42L tier 6-8
Magrini tier 6
Corresetta tier 1-4
testuggine tier 1-4
M14/41.BIS tier 4-5
Sem20/70 M42 Quadruplo tier 1-2
sem 77/44 p41 tier 4-6
M42 da 13.2mm tier 2
fiat 2000 M.17 tier 3
fiat 2800 tier 3
fc.305 tier 10
m11/39 prot tier 3
m12/34 prot  tier 4
m15/42-39t da 37m tier 4
and then use
panzer 5 ausf .i tier 8-9
,tiger tier 7
and, m46 tier 9
to fill any gaps to teir 10

Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Jun 04 2013 - 23:17.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #750 Posted Jun 04 2013 - 23:32

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the line would look likeSem20/70 M42 Quadruplo tier 1 &gt; Corresetta tier 2 &gt; m11/39 prot tier 3 &gt; m12/34 prot  tier 4 &gt;maggrini tier5&gt; M42L Tier 6&gt; tiger tier 7 &gt; panzer 5 ausf i tier 8 &gt; m46 Tier 9 &gt; Fc.305 Tier 10you could maybe put a second line that stems from tier 1 to tier 6-7, but you would only need one line since itle be 'wet your wistle'any not used tanks could be premuim

http://digilander.li.../panther re.htm

Edited by Imperator_Gallogrecia, Jun 05 2013 - 04:52.


Imperator_Gallogrecia #751 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 06:29

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to tanks p.40 and p.40 bis are those the p.26/40 s?
http://books.google....d=0CDEQ6AEwATgK

Life_In_Black #752 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 08:14

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View PostImperator_Gallogrecia, on Jun 04 2013 - 19:48, said:

few important things from this essay  we can add http://www.panzercen...hp?f=93&t=46301
loyd gun carrier changed to italian copy version CB 41
panzer 3-5 able tp be put on the tree
m.14/41.bis new tank
sem 20/70 m42 quadrupolo another tank
plus more

No. That's a war gaming site for Panzer General II and Open General, and the thread you linked to clearly says alternate history in the beginning. So that's out.

Vollketten #753 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 13:45

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*edit

Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:15.


Vollketten #754 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 16:23

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The 'Quadrupolo'
Posted Image

Vollketten #755 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 16:31

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*edit

Edited by Vollketten, Oct 27 2017 - 20:15.


Vollketten #756 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 19:59

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Titbits:

From: Give Peace One More Chance!: Revision of the 1946 Peace Conference Treaty of Paris
By Anthony Tihamér Komjáthy

"The Hungarian outlook for victory was very slim: the Hungarian artillery was ineffective against the forts. the anti-tank trenches represented an insurmountable obstacle for the light Italian made (Ansaldo) Hungarian tanks. the multiple-line barbed wire fences and the mine-fields together offered very little chance for a successful crossing even at the expense of heavy losses in human life and war material."


From: Anglo-Italian Relations in the Middle East: 1922 - 1940
By Massimiliano Fiore

"On 9th April 1937, Gabbrielli telegraphed the Ministry for Foreign Affairsthe news it had received from General Sidqi of the imminent arrival in Italy of Jawad [Ed. a diplomat from the Government of Iraq] to negotiate not only on the purchase of fighter planes and bombers, but also on the fast tanks, field guns, anti-aircraft, and anti-tank guns wanted by the Ansaldo Company..........At the end of June, the contracts for the supply of aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force were concluded. 92 Yet,Jawad had not just come to Italy to purchase aircraft but also to negotiate with the Ansaldo company for the supply of 14 fast tanks (CV.35), and those negotiations reached a successful conclusion on 11th June.93 The previous day, the War Ministry had also agreed to allow an Iraqi Army Officer, Captain Ismail Abaui, to be instructed in operating the tank with the 3rd Mobile Infantry Regiment of Bologna.94"

Vollketten #757 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 20:13

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Tanks of Hitlers Eastern Allies by Zaloga
"....the Hungarian Army was constrained by the disarmament clauses of the Trianon peace treaty. the treaty did allow Hungary to obtain armored care for the police. The Honved (Hungarian Army) managed to skirt around the treaty by disguising armored vehicle purchases as police equipment. srting in 1928, the army began a modest program to build up an armored force, including three Carden-Lloyd Mk IV tankettes, five Fiat 3000B light tanks, six Swedish M21/29 light tanks and several armored cars. By the early 1930's, the treaty was being ignored and in 1934 the Honved purchased 30 Ansaldo CV33 tankettes from Italy, followed in 1936 with another order for 110 of the improved CV35 tankettes. Later purchases brought the final total to 151 and they were organized into seven tankette companies........"

Imperator_Gallogrecia #758 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 20:36

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i just wonted to apologize for my link i realized it was AR but i thought it was acctual information used

Vollketten #759 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 20:47

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no worries. we all find dead-ends. Thats half the fun.

rivit #760 Posted Jun 05 2013 - 21:05

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View PostVollketten, on Jun 03 2013 - 09:20, said:


some other stuff:
I omitted in the images of the L.3 da 47/32 that it actually had a gun shield that goes on it.

A nice image of the Fiat 2000 showing its full height. Assuming the man in the photo is about 5'6" or so.

I can't remember if I ever posted this little gem.

I have no name for it, but it is Italian and is could actually go on a tree albeit with that stumpy little mortar.
I think I found the name for the little tank at the bottom here^.
http://forums.spaceb...-brutes.260589/
New Giant Tanks, Nov 1935. By Johnson T.M.
pg. 28 of the article it says:
"These are some of the performances that pleased Mussolini. His army has developed a new one-ton "Auto Caretta" only four feet wide, with a three foot tread, that can carry almost any weapon or munitions anywhere."
* edit - this is the Moto Mitragliatrice (MIAS)

Edited by rivit, Jan 31 2014 - 15:14.





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