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Italian Tanks and Military Vehicles

italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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Vollketten #8021 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 23:35

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View PostFlakKnight, on Mar 05 2018 - 16:33, said:

So the question is what would you rather have:

 

1) No Italian tree

2) Fantasy/Design only gap fillers

3) Copy/Paste foreign tank gap fillers

 

I personally value the addition of more options more than ironclad accuracy, even if they go crazy sometimes.  I mean you have plenty of other tanks, otherwise completely historic ones even, that have "fantasy" stats.

 

It's not an either/or question

An Italian tree is possible and is happening

We don't need any fantasy tanks in the game at all let alone in this tree

If you're asking would I prefer an Italian version of a foreign tank as a premium instead of a fictitious tank then yes I would.

 



Vollketten #8022 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 23:39

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Also - if to allay any former doubt about the Fiat 2000 the A12 engine is confirmed in a letter from may 1918 to be 250hp.

WithinAmnesia #8023 Posted Mar 06 2018 - 00:23

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Spoiler

 

Italy like Poland is capable of much more the seeds are there; it is just a matter of support and development. I am frustrated with myself for lacking the resources to make a proper, strong and driven tank game. I know that I can make a game, a great game; strong and true. I press onward to manifest a magnificent game that will demand to be played; not many people can achieve such a result but I will see this through for I know of my own potential. I know who I can pay today to get the 3D models, the ballistics engine and even the server networks and everything important going. This game industry is under-potential and much much more can be taken a-grasp into reality. Corruption runs rife, developers retire at 38 and the players are left in the cold left to the weak's broken ideals monetized, bought and sold out of what really could be done if there was a will within the creative community to manifest our collective potential and make gaming experiences that knock everything out of the park. No more crap fake premium tanks, no more crap match maker, no more crap developers, no more executive crap directives, no more share holders; moreover affirmatively no more damned excuses.

 

What we make is a reflection of true ourselves and we are a reflection of what we truly make. If we make an excuse of a game, an excuse of a patch and or an excuse of a hot fix we are excuses of humans for we can do more so long as we demand more from ourselves. Look we are all going to die, what are we going to be and what are we going to remembered and or forgotten by when we draw our last breath? Time of life is finite so why make a crap game when you can sacrifice for what you love and make something that kicks everyone's butt?

 

Some people are weak this is true for it is nature's way to provide and filter for the strong but if we do not demand from ourselves to manifest our true potential life is hollow, empty and we are empty and hollow as who we are in our true selves. The you who goes and conquers one's own dreams is there within you demanding to be manifested through self sacrifice. One can manifest and live one's own dreams and likewise only one's own self can give up one one's own dreams; only one's self and one's self alone is the gatekeeper of one's own life, dreams and destiny. Everything you do you can do 20 times more, better, father, and greater! You have to sacrifice for what you love lest your love have no meaning. Proverbs 23:7 KJV - For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. No person with victimhood in their heart was ever made a statue, moved mountains and went on and changed the world in their image. Life is for doing, fighting and conquering others and more over yourself in every field; life is a struggle to meet one's own potential. The meaning of life is not be overly known but to be fulfilled; realized within one's self.

 

So be it that we dream and we wonder about our existence but if we faulter and give into life's adversities and give into our moment's of doubt and yield to life; life will give to one nothing. Yet if we fight back against the struggles of life to ascend to who we were born to be and become unyielding to the adversities of life and to press ourselves onwards to force one's heart of hearts upon the battlefield that is life. Iron in will and ice in conviction to our path right or wrong, stalwart unto the last into breach of life, forcing life into throwing everything at one's self until their is nothing left but the broken and one's own success; only then will life, exhausted, spent and sundered unto one's own will yield to one everything.

 


 

Anyway about the Italian tanks that could have been:

 

P.43 90/42 tank hunter similar to the M10 open topped turreted tank destroyer; what information is available / surviving on this Italian project?

 

I am of the current understanding that Italy could have produced a series of 'medium / heavy' Semovente tank destroyers / self propelled guns with their independent industry producing the P.40, P.43. P.43 Bis and maybe Pantera and Pantera II or hybrids of Pantera and P.43 bis tanks of the successor to the P.43 Bis. Perhaps even an Italian Tiger II analog if Italy was strong into 1944. This would be somewhat similar to the Japanese Tank Destroyer ambitions in scope.

 

Likewise there needs to be 'everyday' / cost effective tanks to make up the bulk of the the Italian armoured punch. This is what the grind of war armoured conflict dictates; powers of economy and cost effectiveness will overthrow a handful of super tanks day in and day out. This why I am seeking a pragmatic Italian answer to the Hetzer (and other 'bulk forces' tanks like the Pz.Kpfw. IV, T-34-85, Sherman 76 and Panther) and with due diligence make good of the Italian will of industrial independence within the Axis. Yet there is a need for the Italian super tanks / 'siege tanks' in capturing key areas, cities, hills, strategic bases of operation where there just is not enough space and or second chances to trust vehicles with less of a combat advantage. Pay now or pay double, triple even quadruple later à la Panzer I, Panzer II, Panzer III and Panzer IV vs. KV-1, KV-2 and T-34-76 in 1941.

 

What is the statistical limit of the Italian railways? As in what is the maximum width for rail transport? Did the Jagdtigers in Italy travel by Italian the railway? Also does anyone know what method Italy used to test armour penetration values of their anti-tank guns? This is important for future extrapolation of the Italian anti-tank guns in development during the later war periods.

 



RanLSX #8024 Posted Mar 06 2018 - 01:18

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Spoilers please. Wall of text hard to read from phone. Makes me want to kill kittens



RanLSX #8025 Posted Mar 06 2018 - 01:26

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For siege tanks we have the Ansaldo T-39 projects!

 



RanLSX #8026 Posted Mar 06 2018 - 03:41

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View PostVollketten, on Mar 05 2018 - 17:35, said:

 

It's not an either/or question

An Italian tree is possible and is happening

We don't need any fantasy tanks in the game at all let alone in this tree

If you're asking would I prefer an Italian version of a foreign tank as a premium instead of a fictitious tank then yes I would.

 

 

There's like 4 different vehicles sporting the 60mm HVMS. Wargaming could've made a whole premium mini branch and they wouldn't even have been missed.

RanLSX #8027 Posted Mar 06 2018 - 23:14

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Mussolini, the last four days (1974)

has an armored car (hollywood prop)

around the last quarter of the movie used to escort

the Duce and his entourage.

I think the vehicle is trying to represent this:

 

The movie is on YouTube and easy to find.



Vollketten #8028 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 00:10

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View PostRanLSX, on Mar 06 2018 - 16:14, said:

Mussolini, the last four days (1974)

has an armored car (hollywood prop)

around the last quarter of the movie used to escort

the Duce and his entourage.

I think the vehicle is trying to represent this:

The movie is on YouTube and easy to find.

 

 



RanLSX #8029 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 00:18

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With a little more plywood and some tires they could've pulled it off. Smaller cannon might've helped. Lol, and another coat of paint to cover the white star bleeding through.

RanLSX #8030 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 17:29

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Article about the Fiat 3000 tipo ll:

http://www.tanks-enc...at-3000-tipo-ii

 

hhhhhmmmmm, spurs on front & back

Another article:

https://warspot.ru/1...dki-dlya-afriki

 


Edited by RanLSX, Mar 07 2018 - 20:12.


Vollketten #8031 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 19:27

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View PostRanLSX, on Mar 07 2018 - 10:29, said:

Article about the Fiat 3000 tipo ll:

http://www.tanks-enc...at-3000-tipo-ii

 

hhhhhmmmmm, spurs on front & back

 

ramming speed! lol

 

Shame a historic vehicle is released the same day WG release the rest of their Italian tree with another mostly fake tank. Totally unnecessary and not very inspiring at all. 

Dissapointed



RanLSX #8032 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 19:44

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So recently the Ran keeps getting asked what he would do for a fictional td vehicle for Italy

 

I don't know, probably something different that would technologically  impress the invaders. Something they would think of as clever and interesting. Maybe something with a television to entertain the invading barbarian's short attention span.

 

Maybe try to add this remote control tech with a television for aiming. Use the autoloader 90/53 and give it remote traverse & elevation with maybe a towed generator for power or something. Probably would have to box out the front of the gunners (next to the driver) position to fit the camera. No more need for gunshields.

 
 


Spidergrenadier #8033 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 19:48

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Hi again guys, i've got a VEEEERY BAD news for you. Looks like the WG weirdos prefer to spawn alt-history stuff instead of existing due to this approximate tree from the supertest sources. Sooooo upset to see a p26 as tier 4 - that's just sick. We can forget about P.75 and M11/39

 


Edited by Spidergrenadier, Mar 07 2018 - 19:49.


RanLSX #8034 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 19:51

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View PostVollketten, on Mar 07 2018 - 13:27, said:

 

ramming speed! lol

 

Shame a historic vehicle is released the same day WG release the rest of their Italian tree with another mostly fake tank. Totally unnecessary and not very inspiring at all. 

Dissapointed

 

I just finished my fictional contribution (see above) with no intentions of wanting them to put it in the game as remote controlled. 

 



RanLSX #8035 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 20:01

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View PostSpidergrenadier, on Mar 07 2018 - 13:48, said:

Hi again guys, i've got a VEEEERY BAD news for you. Looks like the WG weirdos prefer to spawn alt-history stuff instead of existing due to this approximate tree from the supertest sources. Sooooo upset to see a p26 as tier 4 - that's just sick. We can forget about P.75 and M11/39

 

 

M14 is a tier 3 tank. They listen to s***lords

Vollketten #8036 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 20:38

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just wait till the top tiers come out

aguythatcan #8037 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 21:00

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We were always going to be disappointed, guys. I'm not surprised one bit that they avoided another "Lee" style tank and made the P40 a Stewert clone. 75 and 105. Then give it a 90 and pretend that we filled the gap! Ugh...

Edited by aguythatcan, Mar 07 2018 - 21:00.


RanLSX #8038 Posted Mar 07 2018 - 21:04

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Is the tech tree properly sourced or a non- fan version made to look "official"?

You know, the stuff we use to get in the past?



WithinAmnesia #8039 Posted Mar 08 2018 - 01:09

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Some people on this forum are none too clever, I for one really like what Wargaming did with the P.43 Ter; an Italian answer to the Panther I.

 

*Deleted render images of the Wargaming P.43 Bis and P.43 Ter; website not allowed - wot-news.com - crazy!*

http://wot-news.com/...3/p43-i-p43-bis

http://wot-news.com/...m1441-i-p43-ter

 

I do not overly care what people here think of the P.43 Ter, I like the effort put in by Wargaming to get to a strong Italian answer to the Panther I. The P.43 Ter that Wargaming has come up with herein is very much a blending of the Panther I and the P.43 design into a tank that has Italy staying industrially independent with the technological edge of what the Panther I offers. Yet although I suspect that Wargaming had other motives behind creating the P.43 Ter but I like the result regardless.

 

It could be argued in a few ways that if Italy was stronger and had more resources secured come 1943 - 1944 that the 'P.43 - > P.43 Bis project' would have resulted in further development of an Italian answer of the Panther I. Just look at how long it took with so many variants and iterations the P.26/40 project took to be finalized. I would say it fair that Italy would have iterated a few more times with the 'P.43 -> P.43 Bis project' to eventually come up with a tank comparable to the Panther I; if not even a bit better than the Panther I.

 

The P.43 Ter kind of tank could have come about within Italian politics of 1943 to even early 1944. In that this approach honours the (historic) Italian commands' wishes to keep Italy industrial independent from Germany. Yet also the P.43 Ter is quite brilliant for the design allows to also still have the strength of a tank such as the license produced Panther I from Fiat Ansaldo. This P.43 Ter design is just that, a political compromise where the whole P.43 Ter project is a win-win for Italy as a whole.

 

The Italian ground forces get a tank that can answer any Allied tank with deadly force and of great combat advantage come 1944. Also the Italian command gets to keep its industrial independence. While also giving with the P.43 Ter approach a strong answer to Germany's complaints of Italy not doing enough to help the axis in the World War. (Here is a slippery slope I must admit for if this tank was produced North Africa and Greece [perhaps even Stalingrad] would have been a bit different I figure and thus buying more time for the Italian war machine to produce tanks but eh! What are you going to do?).

 


 

Now for a modernized Italian tank on a proper heavy tank to 'siege' cities with and the like. If there were a group of people who could think up an approach that Italy could have taken for this result: a heavy tank inspired from the KV and Tiger series; this would most likely be the group of people to do it. Italy encountered the T-34/76 on the eastern front and subsequently redesigned their P.40 project to take advantage of the technological edge found from the T-34/76. My question is what would Italy produce if the KV-1 and KV-2 tanks were under more consideration to find a comparable Italian answer to these steel beasts? Italy produced battleships this can be done. Germany answered the KV-1 and KV-2 with the Tiger I in late 1942; my question is what would Italy answer the KV series with come 1942 - 1943? Italy also had a look at the Char B1 and Germany answered the Char B1 heavy tank with the modified VK.30 and VK.36 heavy tanks while Italy did not do a whole heck of a lot.

 

German Answers:

- Char B1 (1940): VK.30 is modified and the VK.36 is modified to mount the 'new' 10,5 cm Krupp turret.

- KV series (1941): VK.45 project is a go and the VK.36 is enlarged and modified to mount the 8,8 cm L/56 turret.

- KV-85, T-34-85, SU-85, SU-152 (1943): VK.45.02 program produces a heavy tank mix of the Panther I and the T-34-85 with a Krupp knock off of the Rheinmetall long 88. Also the VK.100 program is underway leading to what would be the Maus and then to the Entwicklung 100.

 

Historical Italian Answers:

- Char B1 (1940): Crippled naval fleet. So many materials lost, same with Germany eventually eh but if Italy was more a ground forces nation as say Rome was; it makes one think.

- KV series (1941): Nothing of a heavy tank, not even the P.40 (Italian answer to the T-34-76) could tackle this although a glimmer of hope is the Semovente 90/53.

- KV-85, T-34-85, SU-85, SU-152 (1943): Capitulation, maybe the Semovente 105/25 and Semovente 75/46.

 

 

Strong Italian Answers:

- Char B1 (1940): Less Navy in the first place, save resources: VK.30 and VK.36 mixed with P.40 Da 90 mm and P.40 Da 105 mm, 400+ hp engine made into a mass produced vehicle: P.36/40 Da 90 + P.36/40 Da 105.

- KV series (1941): P.36/40 da 90 (expanded) inspired from VK.45 program with 90/53 gun and 50+50 mm (100 mm) of armour, later model (single 100 mm thick sloped armour), 500-600+ hp: P.45/41 Da 90/53.

- KV-85, T-34-85, SU-85, SU-152 (1943): P.45/42 Da 90/53 (sloped armour) inspired by Panther I, P.43 Ter: 150 mm of armour, aircraft and or 700+ hp engine: 90/71 gun: P.60/43 Da 90/71.


Extrapolated Future Projections: ( 'Italian Entwicklung Series' )

- IS-2, Sherman Jumbo (1944): P.60/43 Da 90/71 designed with long 100 - 105 mm (possibly perfected 100/67), 200 mm RHA turret front (on par with 185 mm face-hardened armour of production Tiger II), 80 mm RHA sides, rear transmission and drive sprocket (weight balance), 900+ hp engine (possibly super charged): P.70/44 Da 100/67 (or P.70/44 Da 105/'barrel length' ).

- IS-4, IS-3, T-95 (1945): P.70/44 Da 100/67 (or P.70/44 Da 105/'barrel length' ) modified with 250/100/80/42 mm turret armour and 200/100/80/42 hull armour, mounting a long 120 mm gun (possibly further developed 120/44 to 120/56 [6720 mm] to match length of 100/67 [6700 mm]), rear transmission and drive sprocket (weight balance, combat performance), super charged engine of 1000-1100+ hp: P.100/45 Da 120/56.



WithinAmnesia #8040 Posted Mar 08 2018 - 04:06

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This reminds myself of this old master schematic that I drafted in 2014; The P.40/44 'Orthrus':

https://forum.axishi...ic.php?t=207252

 

There are a slew of tank destroyers and heavy tank variants written down like a mad scientist although as time has flown by I think my design is a bit unrelated to the Fiat-Ansaldo vehicles / design team.

 

An interesting piece of tank related history from the early days of research and development of semi-historical 'what-if' Italian tanks by myself.

 

I seem to have forgotten a lot of Italian guns ha!

 

Although some vehicles are pretty vague in their descriptions; so perhaps some of these vehicles can be 'modernized' with the more discerning eye for history that I possess these days.

 

Eh who knows, I do like those tank names, a good pair for the 'big cat' family of Panzers; they are rather striking and creative.






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