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italian tank tree heavy medium light tank destroyer artillery semovente carro armato

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RanLSX #8561 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:53

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I'm trying to list the guns for Heavy tanks:

 

Fiat 3000 Tipo 'B': 37mm

Fiat 2000 M.1917:   65/17 planned 75mm, 76mm,14mm

Fiat 2000 M. 1934: 2 x 37/40, 1 x 65/17

Ansaldo Turrinelli: flamethrowers

GL-4: 75mm

Magrini: 76mm

P.70 series (multi turret): 75/18, later 75/18 & 20mm, 90mm

GL-Ansaldos: 76, 107, 152, 203mm

GL. 7000 ton: 19 x guns 

Autofortezza: (maybe) 165mm or 450mm Vickers

G.G. tank: ?

OTO KPZ-70: 120 or 152mm   


Edited by RanLSX, Feb 10 2020 - 23:35.


RanLSX #8562 Posted Jan 18 2020 - 19:34

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Since it's been in the news lately, I decided to take it upon myself to create Italy's Space Force:

A595a7j.png

Top right clockwise: The IXV SpacePlane  Drone followed by astronauts training in caves, The San Marco satellite, B1 Porcupine (Wheeled), Porcupine defense remote tower, and Centauro the kill bot.  



RanLSX #8563 Posted Jan 21 2020 - 20:57

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Pics of the inside of the Fiat 2000:

8w1ruuR.jpg?1

Find more from here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Fiat2000/?ref=group_header

Just scroll down a lil' bit and you'll find it! P.S. make sure you open the comments, there's one or two more. 


Edited by RanLSX, Jan 21 2020 - 21:01.


RanLSX #8564 Posted Jan 22 2020 - 22:01

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Fortifications along the Alpine Wall:

https://comandosupremo.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-alpine-wall.487/

 



RanLSX #8565 Posted Jan 24 2020 - 21:27

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Looks like the early version of the DART round for the OTO 76/62:

https://forum.warthu...comment=8241557

"Course corrected shell"



RanLSX #8566 Posted Jan 24 2020 - 21:41

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That's right, Germans. Even in 1933 the Fiat 2000 is still a threat!

Pu3qTBl.png

Now imagine what our multi turret 203mm GL Ansaldo monsters could've done to your Mousies and E1000...if they were built...and didn't break down...just like yours.

So proud! 

Now we will see the mighty Fiat machine wagon move with tracks:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Fiat2000/?ref=group_header

So proud!



RanLSX #8567 Posted Jan 25 2020 - 17:41

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An article from Warspot about the OM32-37 truck series:

https://warspot.ru/16338-avtokaretka-dlya-alpiyskih-strelkov

"It was in Spain that they were first used as artillery tractors - for towing mod guns. 65/17."



RanLSX #8568 Posted Jan 27 2020 - 19:39

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British anti tank  training poster with M11/39 and L3:

n6cxF6f.jpg?1

If you want to make it large enough to read you can go here and zoom in:

https://www.whytes.ie/art/1939-1945-british-anti-tank-training-poster/155717/?SearchString=&LotNumSearch=&GuidePrice=&OrderBy=&ArtistID=&ArrangeBy=&NumPerPage=&offset=221

 

 



RanLSX #8569 Posted Jan 27 2020 - 20:52

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Dome turret time for the Fiat 2000:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=CgI9QkrY0K0&feature=emb_logo

 

All the other videos in one place:

https://www.fiat2000.com/home/home/foto-e-video/#



RanLSX #8570 Posted Jan 28 2020 - 18:06

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Pictures of the MEI project. 

https://forum.warthu...comment=8382905

It looks like the project went a lot farther than I originally thought.

I believe it was called the MEI-80 project posted from the CIA reading room. Boy WT is really going all-out modern weapons and all. When they doing nukes? Someone come get me when they do nukes. 



RanLSX #8571 Posted Feb 03 2020 - 17:55

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It looks like they run historic battles with captured Italian vehicles over at WT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn1xgg3g2fs

Some sort of Advance to the Rhine map.

I was thinking of some kind of Udine to Ozak scenario with P40s escaping Shermans and  ending at Aquino airfield with a Bassotto.

http://www.panzer-ozak.it/

They say 1945 was a reeeeally bad year for the Axis, so I think some kind of a fighting withdraw scenario would be in order.

 

WOT Battle in Asia with P40 fighting on a map I don't even recognize:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wMzzLqhaLw

Reminds me a little bit of Abbey.

 

I must say the maps for both games look rather sharp.

 


Edited by RanLSX, Feb 27 2020 - 18:27.


RanLSX #8572 Posted Feb 03 2020 - 18:04

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More Videos:

P40 He supplement from WT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3URf3P700hc

WOT Asia with the M14:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nG4pJUPwA

 

P43 bis WOT Asia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLAYFwyRBtg



RanLSX #8573 Posted Feb 05 2020 - 19:08

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Some Heat discussion. Soviet 76mm from Tank Archives:

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2020/02/76-mm-heat.html#more

Heat discussion WT ground forces Italy:

https://forum.warthu...comment=8345360

 

"This is referring to the EPS round that has 120mm penetration from 90 degrees, also 70mm penetration is from a 60 degree angle.Current in-game it is 50mm at 60 degree and 100mm at 90 degree. That is a huge difference at BR 3.3 and up , because there are vehicles with 60mm+ base armor so you fail to penetrate very often were you should have.

If semovente 75/18 gets too strong with real EPS then just give it EP only (75mm pen at 100m (HESH)."

 

Bluebeta answer:

https://forum.warthu...comment=8345522

 

"In the book is specified "it's possible". It's not a certain data. A 75mm heat with that penetration is not impossible but it can be an easy mistake of data mixed with the 105mm heat that had that penetration value"

 

3 possibilities:

1. "It's possible" could mean if everything goes correctly with the Heat's impact ( ex. fuse doesn't fail to go off or goes off too early/late)

or

2. It's a typo or mistaken with 105mm like he suggests.

3. The original penetration data is somehow found and confirmed.

 

It's a shame that I don't have the link to the old armored warfare forums. One of the tank gurus there mentioned that the British tested Heat right after the war and would sometimes get 300mm penetration for the 90mm HEAT. The type of 90mm or HEAT shell wasn't mentioned. 

 

You're probably never going to see #3 because people can go bankrupt visiting expensive Italian archives and no one's foolish enough to give the info away for free. That means it might wind up in a book but probably won't be sourced with anything more than Museo Roma something or another listed under acknowledgements. Then fifteen years from now another wave of overly curious morons will question all the books find mistakes and go through the entirely sadistic routine all over again. 

 

I'm going to add my personal opinion and say that we're looking at an older Heat (EP) with 50-70mm pen (that would sometimes function as HESH when it went off too early) and the better fused EPS (which doesn't mean it always worked) which could sometimes get 120mm if everything went right. My guess is that the Italians recorded that one time it achieved maximum results and...whatever.

 

WOW, look at all the 75/46 talk on page 2.

 https://forum.warthu...comment=8376490

bait incoming

Also, did you guys know that people "in the know" have pretty much given up on WWII-modern gun penetration tables? It turns out that their primitive little brains finally realized there's too many unknown variables to consider. Something the Ran's always known all along. ^bait> That's why you should stick to the books despite their flaws. Just saying. <bait<^

^bait^ 



RanLSX #8574 Posted Feb 08 2020 - 21:04

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View PostRanLSX, on Jan 18 2020 - 13:34, said:

Since it's been in the news lately, I decided to take it upon myself to create Italy's Space Force:

A595a7j.png

Top right clockwise: The IXV SpacePlane  Drone followed by astronauts training in caves, The San Marco satellite, B1 Porcupine (Wheeled), Porcupine defense remote tower, and Centauro the kill bot.  

IXV Sith troopers working on the IXV spaceplane:

4kJ0v5J.png?1

Recovery:

6z9FJEU.jpg?1

Since I'm self proclaimed in charge of Space Force, I think these photos are necessary. Who knows when the next space game will come along?



RanLSX #8575 Posted Feb 10 2020 - 22:49

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More WOT Italian Heavy tank talk from some MMO blog:

https://www.mmowg.net/world-of-tanks-project-42-upcoming-new-tanks-for-2020/

A picture from the video.It looks like its from the Fortino Mobile (Ansaldo- Magrini- Mangiapan)

rVkZZEw.png?1



RanLSX #8576 Posted Feb 11 2020 - 17:55

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Article about the SIS:

https://comandosupremo.com/servizio-informazioni-segrete/

 



RanLSX #8577 Posted Feb 12 2020 - 19:16

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Miniature model modern warfare armor:

https://comandosupre...miniatures.506/



RanLSX #8578 Posted Feb 13 2020 - 17:48

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View PostRanLSX, on Jan 14 2020 - 13:51, said:

Article about the Semovente Moto Guzzi from tank encyclopedia:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-italy-semovente-moto-guzzi/

cnnMA98.png

IIRC, I believe In the index on page 2 It was originally called the Ansaldo 1927, then the Moto Guzzi 75/17(incorrect gun), then Ansaldo 1927 again.  The name keeps changing in the index so it might be hard to find. Just look for Ansaldo or Moto Guzzi and you should be fine.

 

Anyway, I think if the Italians were so determined to have their L3s during the 1930s, they should have added a couple of Semovente Moto Guzzi battalions as well. Didn't the British eventually record or estimate 110mm penetration for the 65/17 EP or EPS?  They would have been pretty swell to have for guarding the Brenner Pass and fighting in the mountains later on. Might of helped in Greece as well. Assuming they weren't deployed right after a f&@!$ing rain storm.  

More about the 65/17 cannon from Tank Encyclopedia:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-italy-65mm-l17-mountain-gun/"

"The 65/17 used a 65mm x 172R round, approximately 4.23 kg in weight. Originally only high explosive ammunition was available for the gun, but was later supplemented with a shrapnel shell and canister shell.

In 1936, an armor piercing (AP) shell (4.23 kg) was produced for the gun but was always in short supply. The gun, despite being completely out of date by 1942, was still in common use and a shaped charge ‘EP’ (effetto pronto – rapid effect) shell was developed which was capable of penetrating up to 120 mm of armor. The range was limited to 6.5 km for HE and 500 meters for AP shells. The rate of fire was between 6 and 12 rounds per minute."

My thoughts:

So Blue Beta from the Warthunder Forums mentions the 105/25 also has a EP that gets 120mm and the 75/18 EP could be mixed up with that. Then we have a 65/17 EP that gets recorded as 120mm pen for its EP. So with three cannons all getting the 120mm EP penetration, I think the similar penetration results are probably from similar explosive charge, shape of warhead and quality of target plate. IIRC the Italians tested with standard 270 mm Brinnel hardness   but these listed penetrations might have been done by the Allies and/or Germans. 

I haven't officially looked it up and I'm basing it on memory, but I recall the EP round for various calibers having different shaped warheads. Meh, when I have time I'll post all three EPs for comparison. The French and Italian Explosives manual was apparently notorious for having mixed up labels so I doubt it'll do any good. 

Here's the 65/17 EP and EPS:

Iy73jOS.png

Maybe It's the 105/25mm that has the mixed up penetration?

75mm EPS:

UjBGoAs.png?1

The shape looks similar enough for the EPS.


Edited by RanLSX, Feb 13 2020 - 17:50.


RanLSX #8579 Posted Feb 13 2020 - 18:07

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M11/39 tank discussion:

https://forum.warthu...comment=8401708

It's nice to see my favorite tank getting some notice.

 

Hey, remember the time I had them fighting alongside the Intergalactic Roman Centurions? Good stuff.



RanLSX #8580 Posted Feb 14 2020 - 19:21

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I can't remember if I posted this already. It's an article from Tank Archives about Italian Tankette to L6/40 development.

http://www.tankarchives.ca/2019/10/the-tankettes-late-successor.html

 

Also:

https://forum.warthu...comment=8403398

BlueBeta Quote.

"All Italian shells were APHE, Italy didn't used "solid shells" 

 

Wow that's a shocker. So the British early in the war didn't have 2 pounder AP and only used APHE and the Italians only used APHE.

Kind of explains why they liked their EP and EPS.

 

More from BlueBeta

About Pignato:

"Many times he wrote wrong things in his books, many things were written before even Cappellano discovered in the archives. It's a good starting point for a research to take into account, but not definitive."

 

Yeah, but I still like him. They should name a tank after him. To me he was the pioneer who introduced me to 206mm and 120mm pastaboo penetration. As long as those two are somehow correct then I can forgive everything else.

 

I also had fun finds when I looked for the "Twenty Destroyed Grants" from his Italian medium tanks book. He wasn't simply making things up to try to make the Semovente look good, it actually happened. Well, except it was 15 x Grants and 5 x Stuarts and 88 truck mounted and M13s were there too. Still a fun find. 

 

 

I can't really comment on the other arguments about penetration. I'm not sure where people want it to be? Was the old incorrect pen 34mm @ 500 or something? 

37/40 from DeMarre Calculation used in game:

zAz26o5.png

 

More pen talk:

 

"Sure, from "Dati tecnici armi della fanteria, 1942".

The APHE in question is the first indicated, the weight is a bit lighter from the one ofthe USA report (680 g), while the weight of the filler is a little bit higher (25 g against 23 g) of USA report. The muzzle velocity, again, is correct (640 m/s) see "dati balistici, velocità iniziale".

So if you want as much correctness as possible the APHE 37/40 shot should be a little lighter and with a little more explosive, and obviously have an even lower penetration according to the WT formula than it has now."

 

I don't know. It's irrelevant to the Ran cause as long as I get over 30mm at any range, then bang you're dead. I'm that good. 

Anyway, I always held my expectations low with the M11's 37mm after Vollk released the British report claiming it was useless. Everything after that was an improvement. I mean they equipped the first batch with old Fiat 3000 guns. 

 

Hey, doesn't Demarre suck for everything other than solid shot?    

 

The pen above says you get 39mm at 10m. Ok, here's what you do. Use other friendly tanks (German, Japanese) as meat shields to get as close as possible, then 39mm derp to the face.  






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